INMOTION V12

[techyiam]

10 minutes ago, yoos said:

I have a wild guess: the algorithm adapts itself with time [remember some marketing talk about adaptive response/AI in inmotions wheels or whatnot? Or do I imagine that now?]. Unfortunately this adaptation (if it indeed exists) can be detrimental in certain circumstances/for certain riders. So would not be the electronics/mechanical parts, [which should be robust over very long times] but perhaps something fishy with the algorithm.

I did remember watching the video where Inmotion 's CEO was interviewed by Euco. And how Inmotion have this grand plan of incorporating more AI into their wheels over time. I don't remember he mentioned an accurate time line though.

What I do know is that the V12 does has a feature where the wheel will self adjust to prevent pedal dipping while cornering, or to keep pedals level during descents or ascends.

[UniVehje]

8 minutes ago, techyiam said:

What I do know is that the V12 does has a feature where the wheel will self adjust to prevent pedal dipping while cornering, or to keep pedals level during descents or ascends.

Inmotion and KingSong (and most likely Ninebot also) have corrected pedal dipping on cornering as long as I've been around the scene. Gotway's might do it now but at least earlier they had some pedal dipping on cornering. Ascents and descents should have pedals level always even without any AI.

[techyiam]

32 minutes ago, UniVehje said:

I do remember when I got my first 18" wheel (18XL) I felt like I couldn't go up steep hills anymore, having used smaller wheels previously. I just could't do it. Six months later I had no problems anymore. Nothing changed with the wheel but I learned to use and trust the wheel better. 

I see. 

However, this is not it because while riding, right after discovering that braking has gone wonky again, I would find another good setting, set it, and the normal  braking performance is restored again, a few minutes later.

Edited February 16, 2022 by techyiam

[techyiam]

10 minutes ago, UniVehje said:

Inmotion and KingSong (and most likely Ninebot also) have corrected pedal dipping on cornering as long as I've been around the scene. Gotway's might do it now but at least earlier they had some pedal dipping on cornering. Ascents and descents should have pedals level always even without any AI.

I was just brainstorming. I don't have any intimate knowledge of their firmware 1.5.4 to rule out their algorithms as to having bugs that could be the culprit. 

[techyiam]

Oh, another thing. With firmware 1.5.4, pedal dipping does worsen over time. 

[UniVehje]

32 minutes ago, techyiam said:

Oh, another thing. With firmware 1.5.4, pedal dipping does worsen over time. 

Have you calibrated the wheel lately? That can go wrong sometimes and bad calibration causes pedal dipping algorithm to go bad in cornering. 

Other than that and a bug in firmware, there should not be any changes in behaviour. The same changes should happen in acceleration also, as you can ride the wheel in any direction and braking is just acceleration from the wheel's point of view. A bug could in theory cause the wheel to forget the settings and going back to the app to check them could reset them back. 

[lagger]

21 minutes ago, techyiam said:

Oh, another thing. With firmware 1.5.4, pedal dipping does worsen over time. 

How many kilometers have you driven on EUC overall? What you are writing could be that you are still somewhere on learning curve. I would say I learned a lot in my first 1000-3000 km. Now the progress is not that big.

[techyiam]

37 minutes ago, UniVehje said:

Have you calibrated the wheel lately? That can go wrong sometimes and bad calibration causes pedal dipping algorithm to go bad in cornering. 

Other than that and a bug in firmware, there should not be any changes in behaviour. The same changes should happen in acceleration also, as you can ride the wheel in any direction and braking is just acceleration from the wheel's point of view. A bug could in theory cause the wheel to forget the settings and going back to the app to check them could reset them back. 

The wheel was last calibrated less than 7 hours ago. And the deterioration will start usually within 24 hours.

Edited February 16, 2022 by techyiam

[yoos]

11 minutes ago, techyiam said:

The wheel was last calibrated less than 7 hours ago. And the deterioration will start usually within 24 hours.

If it happens so quick (24hrs) and you have repeated cycles of "reset/calibrate/change some settings->brakes well->24hrs->behaves differently->repeat" then this is definitely not a "learning curve" or "getting used to it" issue. There might be something wrong with your particular V12. I have never heard of such behavior on any EUC.  

[techyiam]

6 minutes ago, yoos said:

If it happens so quick (24hrs) and you have repeated cycles of "reset/calibrate/change some settings->brakes well->24hrs->behaves differently->repeat" then this is definitely not a "learning curve" or "getting used to it" issue. There might be something wrong with your particular V12. I have never heard of such behavior on any EUC.  

But the main controller board, driver board, and motor have all been replaced, and the symptoms still persist. 

[supercurio]

2 hours ago, techyiam said:

Oh, another thing. With firmware 1.5.4, pedal dipping does worsen over time. 

1 hour ago, techyiam said:

The wheel was last calibrated less than 7 hours ago. And the deterioration will start usually within 24 hours.

1 hour ago, techyiam said:

But the main controller board, driver board, and motor have all been replaced, and the symptoms still persist. 

What you describe would definitely be a firmware bug or something external, possibly an uncorrected sensor drift.

Is there any accessory installed on your wheel which could trigger some sensor drift?

Fortunately, Inmotion wheels report the tilt angle via BLE data.
If you record all that as log in EUC World you'll be able to graph it, and possibly confirm with great detail the drift in behaviour that you notice subjectively.

Or you could sync it with a video to confirm visuals with data like I did last year to report an issue with V10F alarms (has never been corrected on V10, only V11)

 

[conecones]

6 hours ago, techyiam said:

I see. 

However, this is not it because while riding, right after discovering that braking has gone wonky again, I would find another good setting, set it, and the normal  braking performance is restored again, a few minutes later.

Are you adjusting settings on the touch screen or the Inmotion app? When adjusting on the touch screen, are you doing it while on the kickstand (plugged in), or powered on (self balanced)?

I've experience some software glitches where if I change split mode settings while on the kickstand, and then turn it on later, the settings reset to 50%/50%. Other times it's also reset to 50/50 after I changed some other settings on the phone app. Since I am on 1.5.0, the phone app does not allow split mode adjustment so this is even more weird. When I purposely test it, the reset does not always happen - it seems to be random. I have resolved the issue now by ONLY changing settings while wheel is on (self balanced) and using the touch screen only. I am sick of trying to get it to read 80/80 using the low resolution touch screen and the OCD kicks in hard when I keep hitting 79/81 haha..

Since you have 1.5.4 - you should be able to change split mode settings on the phone but I would recommend against it. In fact I would look into a way to downgrade to 1.5.0. As you are aware, Inmotion no longer makes 1.5.4 publicly available so there must be a reason and while it would be hard to prove, it could be related to whatever weirdness you are experiencing right now.

[Waulnut]

1 hour ago, conecones said:

I've experience some software glitches where if I change split mode settings while on the kickstand, and then turn it on later, the settings reset to 50%/50%. Other times it's also reset to 50/50 after I changed some other settings on the phone app.

This has happened to me. Eventually whatever I did to set split mode, it stayed. 

[mrelwood]

1 hour ago, conecones said:

In fact I would look into a way to downgrade to 1.5.0.

Unfortunately their upgrading protocol doesn’t allow that. I did leave them with my opinion about the lack of a downgrade when I was testing an early beta firmware for the V11… 

[techyiam]

2 hours ago, conecones said:

Are you adjusting settings on the touch screen or the Inmotion app? When adjusting on the touch screen, are you doing it while on the kickstand (plugged in), or powered on (self balanced)?

I've experience some software glitches where if I change split mode settings while on the kickstand, and then turn it on later, the settings reset to 50%/50%. Other times it's also reset to 50/50 after I changed some other settings on the phone app. Since I am on 1.5.0, the phone app does not allow split mode adjustment so this is even more weird. When I purposely test it, the reset does not always happen - it seems to be random. I have resolved the issue now by ONLY changing settings while wheel is on (self balanced) and using the touch screen only. I am sick of trying to get it to read 80/80 using the low resolution touch screen and the OCD kicks in hard when I keep hitting 79/81 haha..

I am in fact making the changes on the screen. While the wheel is on, I would park the wheel on its stand. Then I would make the changes on screen. The charger is not plugged in.

On version 1.5.4, I have never lost the settings. If my recollection is accurate, I do seem to recall having the experience of the split mode settings being reset by itself on version 1.5.0.

I know what you mean regarding the low resolution touch screen. Making fine adjustments on the slider is ....  Ha, ha.

Appreciate you chiming in.

 

[taiguy]

My split ride mode settings will also "seemingly" set themselves to whatever they want. I'll use the on wheel screen to change it to 100/60 and next time I turn on the wheel, it's at 50/50.

I also have noticed what feels like pedal dip over time. Usually it's after riding for a bit and it feels like I'm leaning slightly more forward than when I started the ride. Don't know what causes it or how to prevent it.

[pkinpdx]

2 hours ago, taiguy said:

My split ride mode settings will also "seemingly" set themselves to whatever they want. I'll use the on wheel screen to change it to 100/60 and next time I turn on the wheel, it's at 50/50.

I also have noticed what feels like pedal dip over time. Usually it's after riding for a bit and it feels like I'm leaning slightly more forward than when I started the ride. Don't know what causes it or how to prevent it.

You might run the calibration thing.  That usually sorts any pedal dip issues.  Its a very strange calibration, tip it on its side in grass and it does a bunch of spins.

[mrelwood]

40 minutes ago, pkinpdx said:

You might run the calibration thing.  That usually sorts any pedal dip issues.  Its a very strange calibration, tip it on its side in grass and it does a bunch of spins.

What you are describing is the “motor self adjustment” process. It may help smooth out the motor behavior after replacing the motor. “Turning and forwarding calibration” is an unrelated process, and it’s done while the wheel is leaning on its integrated stand. That is the horizontal calibration that is being talked about here.

[supercurio]

Okay, I'm hearing some promising info regarding V12 board replacement opportunities.
I'll let Inmotion and distributors communicate that themselves on their own time.

Now it seems worth sharing the process and discussion with them, which should result not in further languish but in some success.

[supercurio]

Following up on:

On January 20, after a few weeks of discussion about the V12 batch 1&2 failures with @Cecily Inmotion, she managed to get Inmotion's Sales director, R&D director as well as a few more engineers from R&D and firmware teams all in a video call with me.

I thought about preparing some slides to structure the discussion before the call.
But it turned out into a long document covering the events and perception of us the rider community as well as distributors, a technical analysis and a more strategy oriented conclusion on how to actually solve the problem.

This document is highly inspired by all the discussions which happened in this forums and some other social media sources, as well as everything we discussed in a group with a few distributors who have been pushing Inmotion hard in the same direction.
I know PET has been relentless with their contacts, and have no doubt many other distributors have been using all their leverage as well the whole time.

Here's the document:
Inmotion V12 safety meeting - January 20 2022

You'll see that it's 100% focused on the goal of convincing them to make a recall or replacement program happen, for all V12 owners.

Coming up next, what happened during the call and after that.

Edited April 7, 2022 by supercurio

[Silverfish]

thanks for doing that, I appreciate knowing someone is out there advocating. I'd like to use the thing I bought last fall some time this year!

That link is dead btw.

[Cress]

We won't know right-away whether Inmotion's response to V12 issues is part of Inmotion's learning curve.  @supercurio represented the EUC-user side in a way that could advance Inmotion's progress as a manufacturer and advance EUC user interest in improving the technology.  EUC manufacturers and EUC users are in an inseparable relationship with an open question as to how well the relationship will work.  

If public acceptance of EUCs increases the EUC market expands and everyone is happy with the outcome.  

I'll risk jumping ahead.  To the extent an EUC manufacturer makes technical information public the EUC user can give informed feedback without guessing and/or reverse-assembling the electronics and software.  MOSFET failures and battery fires are uncomplicated compared to electronic / control-related issues but every problem is understandable and has a solution.

Edited February 18, 2022 by Cress

[Shane Dougherty]

Amazing detailed feedback. Thanks @supercurio for everything! 

I personally would like ţo receive replacement board direct from Inmotion as I've lost confidence in my distributor.  I'm getting zero response.  Last claim was that my batch 2 wheel shipped at the end of November is not a problem wheel!!

[Rawnei]

Another V12 that passed test and later died:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/inmotionv12/permalink/522688722496720/

Quote

These two are dead. I posted before but so everyone knows.

Passed "spin test" 30x at least. Yes I did I correct many times.

Passed the "walk it down the stairs" test many times.

Heavy riders, 235 lbs with gear, many times had it full torque and ride up and down long hills.

1000km so far.

Rode to a curb and touched it, dead.

Really enjoy this wheel. Sad its dead. Hope they do better next time.

 

[Wolverine]

Another distributor is stepping out for its customers - MyEwheel! Thank you so much!

”Right now, the motherboard with the 100V MOSFETs is not meeting our standards for safety and we will not be shipping any V12 HS models until we replace the motherboards with newly designed ones with stronger MOSFETs. Although making our clients wait is not something we prefer, we believe that safety should be our highest priority and we are somewhat happy that none of our clients received faulty V12s and is endangered because of cutoffs and burned MOSFETs.”

Source:

https://myewheel.com/stock/