Speed Chasing after 5 months - S18

[meepmeepmayer]

Yep!

10kph or less: sidewalk.

Bike path: something like 30kph max.

Faster on street.

Done!

[AtlasP]

On 7/23/2021 at 4:56 AM, meepmeepmayer said:

I don't like this artificial classification.  It's to complicated and restricting. It's like how some ebikes count as motorbikes and you can't bike on the bicycle path with your bicycle.

There are no learner cars, city cars, or highway cars. There are just cars. If a 2 ton SUV doesn't need a distiction, my 30kg EUC doesn't need one either. Speed limits work for cars (or not, depending how you see it) and they should be applied to everything else (PEVs), too. That must be enough.

Somebody tell the world that they should all stop having vehicle type classifications because meep from the internet doesn't like them. ;-)

• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle_size_class
• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Types_of_motorcycles
• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moped#Individual_countries/regions
• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_bicycle#Classes

Quote

If a 2 ton SUV doesn't need a distiction, my 30kg EUC doesn't need one either.

SUVs are classified differently from typical cars most places (whether as a distinct SUV classification or more commonly grouped with pickup trucks, but which is still differentiated from cars).

-----------------

To be clear, I am NOT arguing that my proposed classifications should be legal classifications or to delineate which types of EUCs can be used where (that should be done through posted speed restrictions and perhaps overall weight restrictions, given the danger of a runaway device as a projectile). Rather my categories are more along the lines of the common motorcycle classifications (cruiser, sport, touring, etc)--most of which can be used most places (barring certain edge-case exceptions). But this kind of speciation is inevitable as a market matures and splits into more distinct, specialized sub-categories of hardware and corresponding riders.

The value in such classification from a community standpoint is that it sets the context for any discussion. Somebody asking which motorcycle to buy has to start and is helped through the process by others by first determining whether they want a cruiser like a Harley or a crotch-rocket sports bike or a dirt bike to do jumps, etc. Similarly, we waste an inordinate amount of time asking the same follow-up questions to every person who posts asking which EUC they should buy--when through that series of questions it is clear we are just narrowing them down to one of these sub-categories of usage/rider. Imagine instead a world where Joe-potential-new-EUC-rider posts their inquiry like this instead: "Looking for bicycle-class EUC recommendations for a guy weighing 180lbs just to get to/from work/school on a limited budget, trip distance at least 12 miles", etc. Suddenly *so much* is contained in that sentence--as the classification subsumes desired speeds, desired use-case, desired level of portability/carry-weight limitations, even to a degree a price bracket, etc.--and which narrows down the set of potential answers they might receive to those best-suited to what they intended at the outset. (And so they don't get answers that include the guy who believes he's the next Chooch who thinks every EUC  is primarily used as a dirt bike, or the speed demon who posts in every thread saying anything less than a Sherman is trash.)

Edited October 3, 2021 by AtlasP

[mrelwood]

2 minutes ago, AtlasP said:

Imagine instead a world where Joe-potential-new-EUC-rider asks the question like: "Bicycle-class EUC recommendations for a guy weighing

…

I’m all for us to determine which speed group we belong to, but I’m absolutely sure that it won’t help newbies much at all. Pretty much every rider has had the same epiphany soon after starting: “I long to go way faster than I ever thought I would’ve!”

 So we already know that recommendations for bicycle class EUCs would have to consider at least the moped class, and probably with double the intended range as well.

 Other than that, I’d proudly put myself in the moped category if this would ever catch on.

[AtlasP]

On 7/23/2021 at 1:11 PM, mrelwood said:

I’m all for us to determine which speed group we belong to, but I’m absolutely sure that it won’t help newbies much at all. Pretty much every rider has had the same epiphany soon after starting: “I long to go way faster than I ever thought I would’ve!”

 So we already know that recommendations for bicycle class EUCs would have to consider at least the moped class, and probably with double the intended range as well.

 Other than that, I’d proudly put myself in the moped category if this would ever catch on.

*chuckles* Perhaps.

I still have a decent number of friends I've taught to ride who now have and ride V8's and 16S's and who never hit their speed limiters (or they ride with cheapo bike helmets that are not full-face and where them hitting the speed limiter that keeps them under those speeds is still a good thing) just riding it super slow on the sidewalk to/from their local coffee shop and a few places downtown and nothing beside that. They're not enthusiasts, I bet some of them would stumble to remember the name of the model they currently own/ride. But they are a class of rider.

Otherwise of course such classifications are not definitive and there are still follow-up questions to determine whether for example the person asking for a bicycle-class EUC is a 100 pound girl who can't carry anything more than a V8, or a 210 pound dude who might be better off with a V10F--and yes, sometimes there might be counter-questions like "are you going to be staying on sidewalks/bike paths, or do you think you'll ever be on roads and if so what kind of roads/speed limits? And in that case, would you be better off with something more moped-class?" Ultimately such classifications are merely starting points for discussion, not the end of it.

Edited July 28, 2021 by AtlasP

[conecones]

On 7/5/2021 at 6:14 AM, PourUC said:

Well... It's finally happened. I must say, as a young motorcyclist which jumped through multiple licenses so I could go faster and faster I should have saw this coming.

I bought a Kingsong S18 back in January of this year. At that time, it was essentially between the S18, The Sherman and the V11. I knew the other two were more powerful, with the V11 being between the S18 and the Sherman. 

Overall though, my brain said "30 MPH on one wheel is fast enough, I will probably stick to 20 MPH". I decided to go with the S18. It should be fast enough to last me through the training period and then into the 'I can ride this' period.

Well, on my way to work and back today (had to pop in for a short while) I was constantly hitting my speed alarm which is at 28mph. I am so tempted to turn it off, but I know that will lead to my inevitable accelleration into 31 mph and beyond.... onto my face.

So now I am looking at a few things.

1) Upgrades - Realitically, I am not spending another £2k on a unicycle, so if I could get 2x the smaller S18 batteries, i wanted to bump mine up to 4 cells total from 3.

2) Sell 2 motorbikes and buy another wheel.

3) Wait, then sell 2 motorbikes and buy a future wheel from Kingsong (who despite their... issues, still seem to be the only ones doing good with their over current protection).

 

I know people like to geek out on modifications and such but from a time/cost perspective, if you want speed, then the S18 is not for you - sell it and get a Sherman. But if your ultimate goal is to keep chasing speed, then just understand even the Sherman may not be enough.

I get that different people enjoy different riding styles, and I see a lot of beginners start out and quickly jump to faster and faster wheels. This, IMO is not only dangerous but also unfortunate because they are missing out on the other joys of riding. They can't ride one legged, can't go backwards, can barely make it up a curb, randomly get sketchy speed wobbles during hard cornering or braking, and think "off-roading" is taking your wheel on a flat dirt walking path. It's unfortunate because learning these other skills brings SO much more enjoyment to riding, and broadens the rider's riding abilities at the same time. It allows for the rider to enjoy so much more than just "speed" while saving them money on obsessive upgrading and perhaps medical bills.

[The Brahan Seer]

The 'problem' with EUC's is they are so easy to chop and change between being on pavements then roads then across a stretch of grass, nip back onto the road, quick nip onto the pavement, miss queues. Easy to ride super slow or relatively fast again chopping and changing between the two. We can also do this safely too, not always going fast, walking across intersections or on pavements if busy/ not if no none around or going walking pace or below, using good observation/mirrors/signals, obeying the all road rules. So we are a hybrid both pedestrian and driver at the same time. We fit between the current categories and implement them both so well but we to have to be limited to one or the other which is such a shame because using both at the same time is so intuitive. But we will never get that; not legally. We are a round peg living in a square world.

[mrelwood]

2 hours ago, AtlasP said:

They're not enthusiasts, I bet some of them would stumble to remember the name of the model they currently own/ride. But they are a class of rider.

A class called “zombie riders”. (Sorry, couldn’t resist! )

 Yeah, I know there are “those” people.  They don’t come to the weekly meets and group rides, and they don’t geek out here at the forum, so the number of them is really hard to estimate. I’d still say that most beginners underestimate pretty much every aspect about their future riding habits and wishes.

1 hour ago, conecones said:

It's unfortunate because learning these other skills brings SO much more enjoyment to riding, and broadens the rider's riding abilities at the same time.

Absolutely! I’ve been an off-roader since I started, but it still took me a few years to learn to reverse. When I finally did, my confidence riding slow jumped up an order of magnitude. Suddenly stopping for a second or two was no longer a game over, and my slow speed balance increased a whole lot as well. Overall it made me a much better and a safer rider, both on and off the road.

[The Brahan Seer]

11 hours ago, mrelwood said:

Absolutely! I’ve been an off-roader since I started, but it still took me a few years to learn to reverse. When I finally did, my confidence riding slow jumped up an order of magnitude. Suddenly stopping for a second or two was no longer a game over, and my slow speed balance increased a whole lot as well. Overall it made me a much better and a safer rider, both on and off the road.

I have just taught myself to reverse (still shaky) and look forward to it being as intuitive as going forward. I absolutely agree with you;  it really adds a whole new dimension to riding and as you say increases your ability and control to the next level.  I would recommend everyone to learn.

[PourUC]

On 7/23/2021 at 9:03 AM, ShanesPlanet said:

 

Tiltback is not a suggestion or a warning, it is a mistake. Don't train yourself to hit tiltback.

You are being a bit misleading. It's not as if I power into the tilt back, I know when I am near my wheels top speed ish, and then I slowly accellerate until I feel the tiltback, then I back off just a tiny bit. To be clear, I am not 'new' to riding EUC's now and consider myself as having a fair amount of experience in doing this specifically.

EUC world shows that I am not over powering the wheel (not even hitting 80% safety margin), I am just hitting the artificially limited top speed of the wheel. As long as I am not over powering the wheel then there is no issue. The only times I hit a high power situation is when breaking, accellerating from a stop or when climbing a hill.

I am not riding on the tilt back, it's just a tool to know when I am at top speed. The wheel can cruise at 45km/h easily... trust me.

I would share my EUC World if it wasn't for the fact it leads you to my door every single time =D

[PourUC]

21 hours ago, conecones said:

I know people like to geek out on modifications and such but from a time/cost perspective, if you want speed, then the S18 is not for you - sell it and get a Sherman. But if your ultimate goal is to keep chasing speed, then just understand even the Sherman may not be enough.
 

I do not want a wheel without suspension after already having one.

I know some people disregard the benefit of the suspension, but I can feel it helping me when going over bumps on my commute. Picture tree roots under tarmac, that kinda bump.

Also, the modification would help, I know it wouldn't increase the nominal top speed, but on longer rides it would let me stay at the 28mph ish mark for longer. As it stands, the battery voltage can drop to a point where my normal riding style would make me hit 90% + in regards to the safety margin. With a bigger battery (more cells) then the voltage drain on each cell would be less, meaning I could push it for longer.

I am also aware of other wheels, but suspension is key for me. Also, I can't justify the cost right now. However, if I wait I imagine Kingsong will make something else like the S18 but with a more conventional body, and thus bigger and more powerful batteries.

 

[bbulkow]

On 7/22/2021 at 1:37 PM, AtlasP said:

While I agree with the idea of classifications and the increasing stratification of riders/usage, I continue to believe and argue that there are 3 distinct categories:

• Bicycle-class (upper teens/low 20s mph)
• Moped-class (upper 20s/low 30s mph)
• Wannabe-motorcycle-class (approaching 40 mph and beyond)

 

Close....

I don't use this categorization - or at least this name - because there simply aren't mopeds on our roads. Having a category without examples and social norms doesn't help much..... If there are mopeds where you exist, sure! but we don't have them.

It is a legal category, however, in california. but I haven't seen one in a million years --- or in America generally --- since about the 80's. The legal category you are referring to, a scooter, in california, is a 20 to 30 mph vehicle which is registered, requires a helmet and drivers license (M1), but not insurance and not NHTSA certification. The device as sold can't go beyond 30mph, and if it's modified to go past 30mph, and the cops catch you going over 30mph, they take your tags away..... so, one may not go beyond 30mph.

We also have a similar ebike category - "Category III" ebike --- which is basically the 20 to 30 MPH range. These do not have tags, do not require a motorcycle endorsement, do not require a helmet (I think?), and are also limited to 30MPH. I see a lot of ebikes around.

I won't bore you with the exact technical distinction between the two.... needless to say, an EUC is neither :-)....we have only have one wheel.... 

This category, whatever it is, likely maps to what you call 'moped', and seems like a category, I'll give you that. I do bicycle regularly above 20 mph, closer to 25mph, and up past 30 into the 35mph range (downhill :-) on most rides, too.

[Legally, there is also a "low speed vehicle" category which is golf-cart range... but we aren't being exhaustive about categories :-) )

This category is what I think an S18 and 2kw-ish wheels are. I ride according to the "Cat 3 ebike" rules myself, because it's the most common socially, and I feel quite happy breaking the law of riding a category 3 ebike with no handlebars, pedals, and missing a wheel. I'd feel a little happier if I could register my EUC as a scooter and get a scooter tag, but the form requires either 2 or 3 wheels and you have to take your object to a DMV for signoff. I have considered strapping outrigger wheels to my pedals, calling myself 3 wheels, and trying for registration :-)

In any case, we agree that the speeds 30++ , or at least a bit beyond 30MPH (like 35++), are just in a different category. I believe that category should have  licensed drivers, be safety tested, registered and insured.

[AtlasP]

@bbulkow -- While mopeds and the older meaning for 'scooter' or motor scooter (like a Vespa) are technically ever-so-slightly different things, I tend to think of them as a set/roughly similar as they usually have similar performance characteristics. So on the spectrum bicycles are clearly one thing, then mopeds and motor scooters/vespas together occupy the same general space, then motorcycles are clearly the next/top end of that spectrum.

I happened to choose the term moped over motor scooters for two reasons: 1) The term scooter is now firmly used primarily to mean what used to be called kick scooters (between the double-whammy of the RAZOR scooter fad of the 90s and then the explosion of the rental scooters in recent years--that covers a massive swath of generations who all associate that scooter means kick-scooter). 2) technically and legally mopeds are considered closer to bicycles, and from a legal perspective I believe it's in our best interest to be grouped closer to bicycles whenever possible (bicycles very simply get disproportionately greater freedom/preferential treatment by the law compared to any other, particularly-newer micro-vehicles). This is also technically closer to the truth of their implementation anyway, as our EUCs are closer to motorized bicycle parts (bicycle tires and ebike-like hub motors), not stripped-down motorcycle parts.

Although honestly these are semantics, as overall I'd say you and I are on the same page regarding this parallel. The broader point being made was that even if we are a step above bicycles, we are most certainly not and do not want to be associated with motorcycles--and there are other (sometimes forgotten) categories between them that are a better parallel for us/EUCs.

 

Edited July 28, 2021 by AtlasP

[Singasong]

Speed is fun when you don't crash. One good crash that sends you to the doctor, and it's not so fun anymore. Like Mike Tyson said "everybody has a plan until they get faceplanted on a uni at 30 mph"

[PourUC]

Whilst I agree crashing isn't fun... it's par for the course in the speed chasing life.

Just dress for the fall, and drink yo milk.

[.....]

14 minutes ago, PourUC said:

Whilst I agree crashing isn't fun... it's par for the course in the speed chasing life.

Just dress for the fall, and drink yo milk.

Does the body good!

[PourUC]

3 minutes ago, ShanesPlanet said:

Does the body good!

 

[BanzaiBob]

On 7/5/2021 at 2:43 PM, OldFartRides said:

You’ve been lulled into a false sense of security by past performance of a gismo of questionable safety.

Trust not the wheel of one, nor you abilities of cat like landings.

Words to the unwise, grasshopper. 

[OldFartRides]

Kind of ironic I had my worst crash so far in my unicycling adventures at the grand speed of zero miles per hour.

Go figure.

[bbulkow]

On 8/16/2021 at 5:19 PM, OldFartRides said:

Kind of ironic I had my worst crash so far in my unicycling adventures at the grand speed of zero miles per hour.

Go figure.

Me too! Although that was my final speed, not my initial speed.

[.....]

On 8/16/2021 at 8:19 PM, OldFartRides said:

Kind of ironic I had my worst crash so far in my unicycling adventures at the grand speed of zero miles per hour.

Go figure.

Its typically all fun and games until you come to a stop. I typically say   "don't stop as thats when you get hurt"

[OldFartRides]

Exactly what happened to me. 

[Valy]

On 7/14/2021 at 5:35 AM, enaon said:

You cannot disable the thrird alarm on ks wheels, and there is tiltback after the sound, not face plant. There is also a tiltfront feature on the s18 if you ignore all that, it means you should not next time. 

I have upgraded my s18 to a 4p setup, only the plastic frame is needed( no visual change that one can notice, I just made a battery out of each one. I will post some pictures sometme) and my verdict is that an s18 4p realease from kingsong whould be excelent news.

 

 

I love your 20s4p setup! You are an inspiration! Thank you for sharing this. I am planing to do something similar on mine. I see there are 7 cells in the front and one in the rear. Where are the other 2? Do you have any more pictures? That would help me when doing mine. Thank you!

Edited September 6, 2022 by Valy

[enaon]

On 9/6/2022 at 11:34 PM, Valy said:

I love your 20s4p setup! You are an inspiration! Thank you for sharing this. I am planing to do something similar on mine. I see there are 7 cells in the front and one in the rear. Where are the other 2? Do you have any more pictures? That would help me when doing mine. Thank you!

thanks, the two missing batteries are in the front.  I was plannng to make another one, and take some pictures, but I didn't yet. 

there are some pictures here, any info you need please pm me