Speed Chasing after 5 months - S18

[PourUC]

Well... It's finally happened. I must say, as a young motorcyclist which jumped through multiple licenses so I could go faster and faster I should have saw this coming.

I bought a Kingsong S18 back in January of this year. At that time, it was essentially between the S18, The Sherman and the V11. I knew the other two were more powerful, with the V11 being between the S18 and the Sherman. 

Overall though, my brain said "30 MPH on one wheel is fast enough, I will probably stick to 20 MPH". I decided to go with the S18. It should be fast enough to last me through the training period and then into the 'I can ride this' period.

Well, on my way to work and back today (had to pop in for a short while) I was constantly hitting my speed alarm which is at 28mph. I am so tempted to turn it off, but I know that will lead to my inevitable accelleration into 31 mph and beyond.... onto my face.

So now I am looking at a few things.

1) Upgrades - Realitically, I am not spending another £2k on a unicycle, so if I could get 2x the smaller S18 batteries, i wanted to bump mine up to 4 cells total from 3.

2) Sell 2 motorbikes and buy another wheel.

3) Wait, then sell 2 motorbikes and buy a future wheel from Kingsong (who despite their... issues, still seem to be the only ones doing good with their over current protection).

 

[OldFartRides]

You’ve been lulled into a false sense of security by past performance of a gismo of questionable safety.

Trust not the wheel of one, nor you abilities of cat like landings.

[Chriull]

2 hours ago, PourUC said:

Well, on my way to work and back today (had to pop in for a short while) I was constantly hitting my speed alarm which is at 28mph. I am so tempted to turn it off, but I know that will lead to my inevitable accelleration into 31 mph and beyond.... onto my face.

It's not the speed (alone) that let's one faceplant - it's speed and acceleration (with batteries getting low).

The PWM % from KS wheels is a nice alarm shown by DarknessBot and EUC World (here called safety margin). This number makes a great alarm - if one dies not accelerate like hell to max speed. Then one just hears the alarm once one is flying...

 

[meepmeepmayer]

The battery idea doesn't make sense (more battery won't give you a higher top speed, just possibly more safety at accelerations) and would probably not be cost-effective (cost as much as the S18 itself - and where do you put the additional batteries?).

Maybe wait for the rumored King Song S20 and see how it turns out. It should be a S18 but slightly bigger and with more battery, so I expect it to be faster while having the features you like about your S18. Then you can sell the S18 and get the S20 (or not wait and get a Sherman, RS HS, or EX).

Edited July 5, 2021 by meepmeepmayer

[Skecys]

Depending on how trashed your S18 is, you should be able to sell it for at least 3/4th of the retail price. You could then just buy a faster wheel? I don't see an upgrade path on the S18, not much room inside (and you should not mess with the electronics imo).

side note; you seem to be a safe rider so far. Usually someone's first serious face plant puts things into perspective for them . 

[PourUC]

26 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

The battery idea doesn't make sense (more battery won't give you a higher top speed, just possibly more safety at accelerations) and would probably not be cost-effective (cost as much as the S18 itself - and where do you put the additional batteries?).

Some people have done battery modifications. The Kingsong batteries have a built in BMS unit, so they are 'somewhat' plug and play. You just have to do the wiring yourself. The mounting is dynamic. If I can get two of the smaller batteries, they could fit where the current front replaceable plastics go I would just have to fabricate my own protection and cover. I could remove the plastics like in the below timestamped video.
 

The fabrication can be done to a poor visual standard as long as it protects the batteries and won't fall off. I could achieve this by mounting the batteries to an off the shelf mount that could fit a bolt into the hole where the securing bolt for the plastic in the below video goes. Then I could cover it in foam and fiber glass it.

Ignoring the batteries, that would only be around £120 to do. Downside being the wheel probably won't look as good as stock.

[enaon]

On 7/5/2021 at 1:14 PM, PourUC said:

Well, on my way to work and back today (had to pop in for a short while) I was constantly hitting my speed alarm which is at 28mph. I am so tempted to turn it off, but I know that will lead to my inevitable accelleration into 31 mph and beyond.... onto my face.

You cannot disable the thrird alarm on ks wheels, and there is tiltback after the sound, not face plant. There is also a tiltfront feature on the s18 if you ignore all that, it means you should not next time. 

I have upgraded my s18 to a 4p setup, only the plastic frame is needed( no visual change that one can notice, I just made a battery out of each one. I will post some pictures sometme) and my verdict is that an s18 4p realease from kingsong whould be excelent news.

 

 

Edited July 14, 2021 by enaon

[Guest d0n]

I'm in the same boat but with a slower ks16s. A month ago when I started, I never thought I'd be doing 22mph. Now, 120 miles later... I'm getting bored. 

 

Edited July 15, 2021 by d0n

[PourUC]

On 7/14/2021 at 3:35 AM, enaon said:

 

Now this looks interesting. I am electrically capable, but not 'experienced' by any degree in regards to this. I thought about how easy it would be to buy individual cells and wire them up myself to a BMS. I wasn't sure if I would end up over charging them or something. 

Sorry to be a pain, but could you tell me the cells and BMS (I think that's what the red board is) that you are using. Or is that the official Kingsong smaller battery, just opened up to make it flatter?

In regards to the tilt back/forward. I have experience both now. I've moved my 3rd alarm to 31mph and ride up against the tiltback and then fall back a bit. No falls yet hitting it that way. But I have overpowered it whilst hard breaking =D.

[Tawpie]

2 hours ago, PourUC said:

31mph and ride up against the tiltback

Be _very_ careful and don’t do anything sudden or hit a bump. KS wheels aren’t known for being safe near or at their speed limit. More than one S18 rider has been violently introduced to pavement from a tiny nudge while near/at 31 mph.

Tilt forward is a cutout in progress… the wheel cannot catch up to you, there is nothing else to give.

Edited July 20, 2021 by Tawpie

[enaon]

5 hours ago, PourUC said:

Sorry to be a pain, but could you tell me the cells and BMS (I think that's what the red board is) that you are using. Or is that the official Kingsong smaller battery, just opened up to make it flatter?

the cells are the same as the original ones, only in clear wrapping because they were from an automotve project. I have some info here

Be carefull with the tilt forward

 

Edited July 20, 2021 by enaon

[PourUC]

4 hours ago, Tawpie said:

Be _very_ careful and don’t do anything sudden or hit a bump. KS wheels aren’t known for being safe near or at their speed limit. More than one S18 rider has been violently introduced to pavement from a tiny nudge while near/at 31 mph.

I don't stay at 31. I mean, I ride up to the tilt back slowly from around 20mph (I can just feel it) then hit the tilt back, back off a bit and maintain. Thanks for the advice though, but don't worry. I won't over lean it, I only do this on 2 parts of my commute which are long flat cycle lanes. (never say never)

[Ben Kim]

I couldn’t ride a Kingsong with my sanity intact on the street. I had an MCM5 v2 which i used for short range rides that nearly got me killed multiple times (once nearly cutout crossing a highway/local intersection) to where i got the lightest 100V wheel available which was the original MSX. now no such issues and I can comfortably cruise and pass at 35 mph.  

Strongly consider getting a 100v for your next wheel. 40+ mph should be okay for all but the craziest speed demons! 

[PourUC]

 

5 hours ago, Ben Kim said:

Strongly consider getting a 100v for your next wheel. 40+ mph should be okay for all but the craziest speed demons! 

Of course, the S18 isn't as beastly as I wish. When I do upgrade it will be to another suspension wheel though, so here is hoping Kingsong pull their finger out. I am in no immediate rush though.

In regards to the speed though, I am already the fastest thing on the cycle lanes on my commute. Not saying more speed wouldn't be appreciated, it definetly would as well as less fear from over leaning it in accelleration. But I am not struggling with traffic so I don't get the full feeling I imagine you did with your MCM5.

[PourUC]

On 7/15/2021 at 3:45 PM, d0n said:

I'm in the same boat but with a slower ks16s. A month ago when I started, I never thought I'd be doing 22mph. Now, 120 miles later... I'm getting bored. 

 

"These beeps are to alert people of my presence... I am safe" =D

As you will more power to come from somewhere.

[Ben Kim]

30 minutes ago, PourUC said:

 

Of course, the S18 isn't as beastly as I wish. When I do upgrade it will be to another suspension wheel though, so here is hoping Kingsong pull their finger out. I am in no immediate rush though.

In regards to the speed though, I am already the fastest thing on the cycle lanes on my commute. Not saying more speed wouldn't be appreciated, it definetly would as well as less fear from over leaning it in accelleration. But I am not struggling with traffic so I don't get the full feeling I imagine you did with your MCM5.

Well, there’s the difference, i ride the roads not bike lanes. 

[bbulkow]

New S18 owner here, two things to add.

First, I am finding myself comfortable more on the 25++ side than the 25-- side, _because I have suspension_. My prior fear, always, was a ridge or pothole or tree root based edge that I didn't pick up, and the wheel would catch air and go sideways (not cutout), and I want to go slow enough to not outrun my brain. I am already finding myself more willing to pick up a bit more speed, which might cause me to start overruning the S18's capabilities. Instead, I will be telling myself this means I can enjoy riding more, and be less mentally tired and physically tired when I arrive, and arrive safer.

Second, I think we just need to remember there are two kinds of EUC riders now, the ones who are Bike-ish (20 to 25mph), and those who are Motorcycle-ish (30 to 40), and we should agree to live and let live. I see comments like "if you have an S18 you can't hit a single bump in the road" as being just plain unreasonable and unhelpful, it's not true. It is true you should stay out of Road Driving and stay in Bike territory (which is sometimes the road, yeah I know very well thanks, but even in the road has different rules).

I myself am in the Bike++ camp. I think anyone who takes an unregistered, uninspected vehicle, not bound by NHTSA (in the US) regulations, and drives it in the road (and that means anything including cars and whatnot), is doing something pretty bad. I'm willing to at least say "live and let live" for you road-riders at 40mph, at least, because we all love EUCs, but I hope you're not in the US, or you're working hard to get the laws changed (let's roll back all safety regs like seatbelts for cars, or create for EUC a set of regs like we do for motorcycles including registration and insurance). When I want to drive - and it is driving at that point - in traffic, I have a license and registration and insurance and a safety designed vehicle. Some of those vehicles are pretty fast. On an EUC, I ride the bike lanes and the bike streets and go on public transit with my wheel and the S18 is GREAT for that because it's just on the correct side of light enough, and has the extra safety of keeping the rubber on the road when the road turns to crap.

To the topic of speed chasing, know what camp you are in! "Driving" vs "riding" is a big leap and not to be done by just drifting a little faster now and then. Think about what you're really doing....

Edited July 21, 2021 by bbulkow

[PourUC]

4 minutes ago, bbulkow said:

To the topic of speed chasing, know what camp you are in! "Driving" vs "riding" is a big leap and not to be done by just drifting a little faster now and then. Think about what you're really doing....

In the UK it's illegal regardless of where you are.

I use the road in a tiny amount of situations when it is safer for me to do so. However, these roads are not what I imagine the US roads to be like. I am talking 20mph roads that I sometimes go onto if the path is too small. 

Cycle paths will get me to work directly, but I have to go on the road for about 40 seconds to get to my nearest cycle path. This is a risk I am willing to take.

In regards to speed chasing, even if I had a faster wheel I would be under 30 mph on most of my commute, but there are definetly times when I could go faster and it would be absolutely safe. Picture a slightly down hill cycle path that is straight with full visibility. There is nothing I can hit. 

When I am anywhere near pedestrians/dogs I slow right down. 

It would be nice to have one wheel for everything, and I would like more speed. I would like to be able to ride upto 45 mph in an ideal world.

In regards to getting the law changed. It's not going to happen. It just isn't.

I ride motorcycles so am fully aware of the dangers of speed. As a motorcyclist I also think speed can increase safety is used well. Even more so with an EUC where by having a more powerful wheel I could artificially limit the speed and then hit that speed without any fear of me over powering the wheel.

Another thing, which is more battery related than motor, but I consider it still to be 'faster' is the safety of having a higher voltage for longer. On the S18 as you may have noticed, you lose performance at around 60% battery seemingly, as in you can get the over powering beep a lot easier once you start to get lower.

[bbulkow]

17 minutes ago, PourUC said:

In the UK it's illegal regardless of where you are.

In the US it is illegal past 12mph in every state I've closely read the laws. Thus, the same.

I think there's a BIG difference in illegality between driving 40MPH among public roads where every other vehicle is registered, licensed, and insured, and going 25MPH riding according to bicycle norms where every other vehicle is NOT registered, licensed and insured.

I believe the law, and a relevant police officer, would likely agree with me. The penalties for driving an unregistered, unlicensed, uninsured vehicle are pretty steep and well known, the penalties for riding an electric scooter with only one wheel and no handlebars is really not clear and almost certainly far lighter - and the way I ride, cops wave hello :-) .

It sounds like you agree and are following bicycle rules. I think the S18 is quite safe when riding in that fashion, and although I might agree that it would be nice to have more safety buffer and the ability to blip up at the times when its safe (I have one trail I ride on near me that qualifies, the sight lines are literally over 2+ miles and no one is ever there), I'm willing to live with the lighter weight and price. If a wheel came out with a bit more of everything for the same price and weight of course I would buy it I'm not an idiot.
 

Edited July 21, 2021 by bbulkow

[AtlasP]

On 7/5/2021 at 7:59 AM, meepmeepmayer said:

(or not wait and get a Sherman, RS HS, or EX).

+or V12

[AtlasP]

On 7/21/2021 at 1:22 PM, bbulkow said:

Second, I think we just need to remember there are two kinds of EUC riders now, the ones who are Bike-ish (20 to 25mph), and those who are Motorcycle-ish (30 to 40),

While I agree with the idea of classifications and the increasing stratification of riders/usage, I continue to believe and argue that there are 3 distinct categories:

• Bicycle-class (upper teens/low 20s mph)
• Moped-class (upper 20s/low 30s mph)
• Wannabe-motorcycle-class (approaching 40 mph and beyond)

While moped usage varies wildly from one region to another and so not everyone remembers to consider them, I still think they're by far the closest parallel to most enthusiast EUC usage/riders. (Depending on local laws, many mopeds top out around 30 mph or some enthusiast ones can get higher into the 30s mph.) Obviously most of us are "more than bicycles" but "less than motorcycles", which means "we're basically mopeds", whether people like it or not.  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ #dontshootthemessenger

Edited October 3, 2021 by AtlasP

[mrelwood]

11 hours ago, AtlasP said:

Obviously most of us are "more than bicycles" but "less than motorcycles", which means "we're mopeds", whether people like it or not.  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ #dontshootthemessenger

I’d say we’re “half-mopeds”. 

[.....]

I ride the gamut of 5mph up to 50mph. I think that puts me squarely in the 'pedestrian' category. As in, I always have the right of way and can travel anywhere. I fear the classicfication is only recognized on ShanesPlanet. Everywhere else, classicfication falls within whichever activity I am currently using.

As for the s18 upgrade because you are hitting top speed. The ONLY solution is to get a bigger/heavier/faster wheel. Just because it CAN go 50mph, doesnt mean it has to. If you can accept all the other compromises, you will be happy with a tank of a wheel that has headroom for when you are cruising 25mph and want to speed up. Personally, I cant be content with the compromise of a heavy/fast wheel, so I have more than one kind.

I find it funny that no matter HOW MANY TIMES people are being told that 25mph isnt that fast once you get used to it, they still think contentment can be found at speeds much less(i thought the same). Some people never chase the speed, but a lot should already realize that they arent that kind of person.  Don't be fooled, suspension is not whats allowing people to do 40-50mph safely. SKILL and a little luck, combined with the right equipment that is currently available, is what's allowing it.

If you have a speed motorcycle background, I suspect that you will be lured in by the looks of a suspension wheel, but will quickly find out that the icing isnt the cake...

Tiltback is not a suggestion or a warning, it is a mistake. Don't train yourself to hit tiltback. A GOOD rider can stay just under tiltback and be mindful of the sliding power scale. I set my top speeds just a hair under factory, as I KNOW that I sometimes like to feel the power when Im already above 20mph. Do yourself a favor and honestly evaluate how you ride. If you take eucw logs you can even SEE how you ride. The only person you are fooling is yourself, if you don't use a little introspect and adjust the device accordingly. The wheel doesnt care what you intend, it only cares what you do. We're already pressing our luck as it is, no need to make it heaps worse for a mere cpla mph for a few moments. Riding naked within the limits of the equipment is much safer than being fully geared and riding at tiltback with more abandon. Basically, slow down, ride naked. Or, slow down and gear up.. whichever.

Edited July 23, 2021 by ShanesPlanet

[meepmeepmayer]

14 hours ago, AtlasP said:

While I agree with the idea of classifications and the increasing stratification of riders/usage, I continue to believe and argue that there are 3 distinct categories:

• Bicycle-class (upper teens/low 20s mph)
• Moped-class (upper 20s/low 30s mph)
• Wannabe-motorcycle-class (approaching 40 mph and beyond)

While moped usage varies wildly from one region to another and so not everyone remembers to consider them, I still think they're by far the closest parallel to most enthusiast EUC riders. (Depending on local laws, many mopeds top out around 30 mph or some top out around 35/40 mph.) Obviously most of us are "more than bicycles" but "less than motorcycles", which means "we're mopeds", whether people like it or not.  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ #dontshootthemessenger

I don't like this artificial classification.  It's to complicated and restricting. It's like how some ebikes count as motorbikes and you can't bike on the bicycle path with your bicycle.

There are no learner cars, city cars, or highway cars. There are just cars. If a 2 ton SUV doesn't need a distiction, my 30kg EUC doesn't need one either. Speed limits work for cars (or not, depending how you see it) and they should be applied to everything else (PEVs), too. That must be enough.

[mike_bike_kite]

Why not just be classified by the speed you're doing? ie if you're going faster than a run then perhaps the sidewalk is the wrong place, if you're going under 20mph then you can go wherever a bicycle goes, if you're going faster than that then you're under the same restrictions as having a moped/motorbike. It would make it much easier to govern. It could apply to all forms of PEV, current and future.