V10F or KS16X - best value?

[pressbyron]

Hey!

I currently ride a MCM5 340WH, i'm a light rider at ~65kg so this wheel takes me approx 16km before getting low voltage beeps in inclines etc. My commute to work is ~15km so I use this wheel to get there, charge, and go home. 

I'm looking to upgrade as I outgrew this wheel with my 600km ridden.

I'm looking at the V10F (960WH) and figure this will take me to work, and back, without any issue. Currently I can get this for ~1300 euro.
I'm also looking at KS16X (1500WH), this will be more future proof in terms of range and I really like the design, and there is an official seat. But this one is more like ~1900 euro.

How much speed difference is there in the wheels? Specs says 10km/h (40 vs 50km/h) but i've also read about cutoffs on the KS16X so I do not think riding it at 50km/h would be an option? But then again maybe riding the V10F at 40km/h is not doable either?
I currently ride at around 30km/h on my MCM5 and pretty close to the 80% motor output beeps 

I live in Sweden and I have not seen any place to service my EUC, and also they are not exactly legal (max 20km/h is the rule). 
So is it worth the extra money to get a KS16X with limited service options and a (very low to none) risk of getting it impounded by the cops?

Also since I live in swede, does the V10F have better weather proofing? (can be rainy here :P)

Any input would be awesome!

[pressbyron]

"I currently ride at around 30km/h on my MCM5 and pretty close to the 80% motor output beeps" 
So with this I mean that I would like to be able to go a bit faster

[Nestor]

I am not familiar with KS16S but my Inmotion V10F has well over 1000 km and runs like a charm.  The wheel is very reliable, safe, and with its max speed of around 36 km/hr it should be fast enough for you. I haven't used it in the rain but supposedly it has better then the average water protection. Here in the US, thank God, police generally have more important and urgent things to do then to enforce obscure ordinances about personal electric vehicles (PEV). Unless you do something very stupid, riding unicycle (at any speed) is free from harassments and therefore very enjoyable. 

[Camenbert]

If you'll ride home even if there is heavy rain, I'll see the V12 with it's IP rating

Some say it's a 16X killer, it's true you get much more for an extra $300, than here for $600 from V10F.
The Tesla T3 also get 1500Wh...

[supercurio]

Hi @pressbyron!

I own both, V10F as my first wheel (bought new) and 16X as second wheel (bought second hand).

They both have their pros and cons, and play in different class.
I agree that on paper, like @Camenbert mentions the V12 should provide the best of both.

If you're in the Stockholm area, I'd be happy to meet, talk on the topic and give you the opportunity to try both 

If not I'll develop further here.

[pressbyron]

15 hours ago, Nestor said:

I am not familiar with KS16S but my Inmotion V10F has well over 1000 km and runs like a charm.  The wheel is very reliable, safe, and with its max speed of around 36 km/hr it should be fast enough for you. I haven't used it in the rain but supposedly it has better then the average water protection. Here in the US, thank God, police generally have more important and urgent things to do then to enforce obscure ordinances about personal electric vehicles (PEV). Unless you do something very stupid, riding unicycle (at any speed) is free from harassments and therefore very enjoyable. 

Sounds like what i'm after in a wheel! Thanks for the info! Yeah i dunno if police actually would stop me, have passed several without an issue. I'm not driving reckless and always slow down for pedestrians etc so i'm hoping it would not be a issue

15 hours ago, Camenbert said:

If you'll ride home even if there is heavy rain, I'll see the V12 with it's IP rating

Some say it's a 16X killer, it's true you get much more for an extra $300, than here for $600 from V10F.
The Tesla T3 also get 1500Wh...

Hmm actually did not think about the v12, I just assumed it was a 18" wheel. For me weight is a little bit of an issue as i carry the wheel upstairs at work and also have to carry it into it's resting room in my house. But it's a option for sure. But i'm also thinking getting north of 2000 euro for a wheel is starting to hurt, even though I could afford it.

14 hours ago, supercurio said:

Hi @pressbyron!

I own both, V10F as my first wheel (bought new) and 16X as second wheel (bought second hand).

They both have their pros and cons, and play in different class.
I agree that on paper, like @Camenbert mentions the V12 should provide the best of both.

If you're in the Stockholm area, I'd be happy to meet, talk on the topic and give you the opportunity to try both 

If not I'll develop further here.

@supercurio interesting! I'm actually in the Stockholm area. I'll DM you!

[Scottie888]

Based on specs alone & assuming you only want to own 1 wheel (instead of a stable like the majority here😋), I say the V12 is the pick of the bunch. If you really want to ride at 50kph safely & extendedly, then there's really no other than the V12 (Well there's the GW Nikola+ but currently, GW's in the doghouse for whole variety of reasons of which we won't go into here). 

If it were me & I was looking for a 16" wheel, I'd go for the V12. But that's assuming the new V12 does not have major birthing issues as its a brand new model incorporating some very new features.

Whereas the V10f & 16x are well proven with very known issues. For strictly your 2 choices in OP, much as I dislike KS (or Locksong as some of us see it), the 16x is the better choice. You may well think 40kph is fast enough but trust me, its not really that fast. In due course, you might even think it slow. And that's topspeed for short periods at max batt charge only. Also 40-60kms range may be somewhat adequate, again in due course, its likely you'd want more.

Never hurts to have more range or more speed than needed, for the moment at least😉

[I_Must_Bust]

On 6/1/2021 at 10:48 AM, Camenbert said:

If you'll ride home even if there is heavy rain, I'll see the V12 with it's IP rating

Some say it's a 16X killer, it's true you get much more for an extra $300, than here for $600 from V10F.
The Tesla T3 also get 1500Wh...

I have the 1480Wh ali express tesla and I love it but at that time it was only around 1250 shipped. I don't know if the tesla is as good of a value at the new v3 price of 1600+ even with all of the welcome additions. At that price, I'd be much more compelled to just go a bit further and buy a higher end wheel like an RS or V11.

Edited June 4, 2021 by I_Must_Bust

[I_Must_Bust]

On 6/2/2021 at 2:21 AM, Scottie888 said:

Based on specs alone & assuming you only want to own 1 wheel (instead of a stable like the majority here😋), I say the V12 is the pick of the bunch. If you really want to ride at 50kph safely & extendedly, then there's really no other than the V12 (Well there's the GW Nikola+ but currently, GW's in the doghouse for whole variety of reasons of which we won't go into here). 

If it were me & I was looking for a 16" wheel, I'd go for the V12. But that's assuming the new V12 does not have major birthing issues as its a brand new model incorporating some very new features.

Whereas the V10f & 16x are well proven with very known issues. For strictly your 2 choices in OP, much as I dislike KS (or Locksong as some of us see it), the 16x is the better choice. You may well think 40kph is fast enough but trust me, its not really that fast. In due course, you might even think it slow. And that's topspeed for short periods at max batt charge only. Also 40-60kms range may be somewhat adequate, again in due course, its likely you'd want more.

Never hurts to have more range or more speed than needed, for the moment at least😉

Does the nik+ have the same... known explosive tendencies... as some other gotway wheels? I gotta say I'm a bit nervous with my jury-rigged-aftermarket-battery-having tesla after hearing so many of these stories but hapily a tesla isn't involved often. I think I've only seen one report of an exploding tesla.

Edited June 4, 2021 by I_Must_Bust

[Scottie888]

3 hours ago, I_Must_Bust said:

Does the nik+ have the same... known explosive tendencies... as some other gotway wheels? I gotta say I'm a bit nervous with my jury-rigged-aftermarket-battery-having tesla after hearing so many of these stories but hapily a tesla isn't involved often. I think I've only seen one report of an exploding tesla.

Saw a YT vid of a smokin' Nik once way back when. I think buddy says his has been mod'd so take it for whatever that means.

No incidences of Tesla's of the 1 wheel kind (can't speak for the quad wheels) spontaneous anything, cept long rides. I too have the Tesla 1480ah & zero issues so far. Cept tire changes a biaaaatch!!!

[pressbyron]

I gotta a gotway right now but looking for Kingsong/inmotion because of recent fires and quality over all. I might hold off and see what price v12 will go for. Might be the best pick as I will definitely not outgrow that speed.

[.....]

v10 or ks16x are both good choices. Dont underestimate how you eventually want to go faster and faster for longer. I'd go with the Kingsong route. I definitely wouldnt buy one of the newer wheels, be it the ks18, the v11, v12 etc. . If one of your needs is reliablilty or ease of use without excessive maintenance, you cannot just assume a new wheel is better in ANY of those areas. The euc game is an odd one. Newer just means newer, not hardly better. Sometimes better, sometimes horribly worse. If you fear something being impounded, I damn sure wouldnt roll the dice on this new crap, spend a mint, wait months, then watch it burn or be stolen by the police. Look used, and enjoy it while you're still alive to do so.

I'm pretty sure @Mike Sacristanis in Sweden. I think I also saw him visit a shop that repairs wheels. Perhaps theres a damn fine deal on a used one there? Sweden is pretty small, I'm surprised you havent seen the store.

Edited June 8, 2021 by ShanesPlanet

[gon2fast]

16X hands down.

[That Guy]

I was considering V10f and ended up with KS16X. I also liked the IP rating of InMotion, its appearance and the brand reputation. But as I live in a very hilly town, I need all torque a wheel can give without fear of overpowering the wheel. So, I went for the stronger motor and larger battery and haven't regretted. To me KS16X feels confident for anything I am personally throwing it at.

I also rains here (no, not always, sometimes it doesn't). So far I was caught in a heavy downpour a couple of times... To what I understand, KS are not as far far behind IM with the build quality as GW/BG. Yeah, and I am also impressed how robust the KS16X casing is. (I only can assume - I haven't tried the V10f, but it may look a little bit too shiny for your first 100km of "getting used to" or just trying "that unpaved path" in the park.)

[Scottie888]

Still after all's said & done, I'd get the V12 if it was going to be my only wheel or at least, a wheel I'm gonna own for a bit. While it a new model incorporating some new features, there's really nothing 'new' in terms of technology. 

The V12 stil has the old school axle over bearings & besides the touchscreen (honestly is that really new), there's nothing new. Maybe the 100v is new for IM but its not new in any sense of the word. I esp like the IP ratings & the adjustable pedals. & I like how it looks to be nimble despite being a tad porky.

It's possible it may encounter some birthing issues but I optimistic it won't be anything major. I haven't seen a full teardown as yet but on the little out there, it doesn't seem to be as complex as the V11.

Based on the $2200 ewheel pricing, its likely the best 16"er out there, in specs, in value & more importantly, in performance. The V12's da wheel I would buy if I was in the market.

[mrelwood]

16X good & bad: Very usable design and specs for most riders. Insufficient safety at top speed, lousy waterproofing, many of us have personal beef with the manufacturer behavior.

V10F: Great waterproofing, effortless light feeling ride, the best official app. Short range and slow top speed by current standards.

V12: Good? Practically everything we know about it so far. Bad? The unknowns of a new wheel, only a 16” wheel, no suspension. 

Personally I would not buy the 16X in your situation.

[pressbyron]

Seems like im not buying much in current wheel market... 

So undecided now haha. Maybe wait for the v12 to hit the market fullt and decide then.

[Tawpie]

13 hours ago, Scottie888 said:

I'd get the V12 if it was going to be my only wheel

If now were then, I'd be tempted by the V12 as well—but would be very wary of 1st gen teething pains. There are unverifiable reports it uses the same motor as the 16x if that means anything! I'm still a 16x fanboi though, and haven't seen anything that makes me regret my decision... even the V12. BUT I'm approaching my second thousand miles and still don't fully *enjoy* cruising above 20 mph, if you do feel there may be a need for speed in you and don't like running near the edge, then the 16x might be a bit under-capable for you. For everything else though, it's bueno.

[That Guy]

I think it is quite a challenge to define the "everyday wheel". This is why many people have more than one.

It would be much easier to choose (and compromise) if we considered only one or two scenarios of use:

Hills - need torquier motor, smaller, lighter wheel - but not for high speed;

Rain - need build quality to IP rating - exclusively InMotion wheels, alternatively custom weather-proofing (or hoping for the best like me);

Crowded streets and public transport - need lighter, smaller wheel (maybe also wider tyre) - but not for high speed or long range;

Off road - need suspension, torque, wider tyre - but not for commuting, high speed or long range; 

High speed - need powerful motor, larger wheel - but not for hills or commuting in the crowd/public transport;

Long touring - need larger battery - but not for commuting or hills...

So, if we rank all existing (well understood) wheels on the market KS16X may get close to the top as "the best all round" wheel, because it is the "second best" in a couple of the categories above. V12 is still quite new to be known/understood to conclude, but it is a very strong contender to be at the top for the "everyday" category (in a year or two?...).

And of course there is anticipation that there will be new wheels coming from KingSong over the next year or so.

Edited June 8, 2021 by That Guy

[Scottie888]

1 hour ago, Tawpie said:

If now were then, I'd be tempted by the V12 as well—but would be very wary of 1st gen teething pains. There are unverifiable reports it uses the same motor as the 16x if that means anything! I'm still a 16x fanboi though, and haven't seen anything that makes me regret my decision... even the V12. BUT I'm approaching my second thousand miles and still don't fully *enjoy* cruising above 20 mph, if you do feel there may be a need for speed in you and don't like running near the edge, then the 16x might be a bit under-capable for you. For everything else though, it's bueno.

O I've no doubt that it possible for the V12 & 16x to share parts incl motors. Infact, it wouldn't surprise me if the EUC mfgrs source the same OEM batteries & motors. Afterall thats the most cost efficient for mfgrs. 

Now I'm not an electronics engineer nor expert but based on info from this forum, the motor ratings are really somewhat nonsensical figures. What really matters are the controllers that really determine output. Eg. I think its an open secret that the RS shares the same motor as the EX.N & ditto for Mpro with EX. However based on rider/owner feedback, I haven't heard any pip of them being the same. If one needs a dif type of eg. YT search surron controller upgrade & one will find that even if we kept everything else identical, the controller swap alone turns it into a different machine.

Saying the V12 seems to be THE 16" of choice atm is simply based on objective numbers. Just the fact its a 100v 1750wh 70kph wheel at the pricing of the the 16x/Nik+ with all the new features incl IPxx batteries alone is sufficient. Sure there's chances of issues but which wheel doesn't.

If one dives into it, its really a new 'old' wheel done better & to a higher QA with corresponding build, fit & finish. At least seemingly so. We'll know down the line shortly which is why personally, I'd wait for a bit before doing anything if I was spending my money.

[mrelwood]

Very well put, @Scottie888!

30 minutes ago, Scottie888 said:

motor ratings are really somewhat nonsensical figures. What really matters are the controllers

Pretty much yes, except one can’t disregard the actual power source, the battery.

A regular Walkman should be a familiar example:

The battery’s power is what spins the cassette. Battery getting low, the cassette slows down, until it stops altogether.

The Walkman’s electronics (EUC’s controller) determine whether the cassette plays, seeks fast forward, applies a bass boost, and how loud the music is.

The headphones (EUC’s motor) only plays back what the controller tells it to, and if the headphones’ power  capabilities are insufficient for the Walkman’s volume setting, the headphones fail to do their job cleanly (pedals fail to stay level).

But each part has a crucial job to do, and the end result is a sum of all three. 

[.....]

42 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

Very well put, @Scottie888!

Pretty much yes, except one can’t disregard the actual power source, the battery.

A regular Walkman should be a familiar example:

The battery’s power is what spins the cassette. Battery getting low, the cassette slows down, until it stops altogether.

The Walkman’s electronics (EUC’s controller) determine whether the cassette plays, seeks fast forward, applies a bass boost, and how loud the music is.

The headphones (EUC’s motor) only plays back what the controller tells it to, and if the headphones’ power  capabilities are insufficient for the Walkman’s volume setting, the headphones fail to do their job cleanly (pedals fail to stay level).

But each part has a crucial job to do, and the end result is a sum of all three. 

You need some updated analogies. If you have porn on beta and still use a rotary phone... Your age is showing..

(we still play cassettes in the honda radio. Whew, we listened to some BAD stuff back then)

Edited June 8, 2021 by ShanesPlanet

[mrelwood]

8 hours ago, ShanesPlanet said:

You need some updated analogies.

 I started to type a newer one, but nothing spins anymore, everything is digital!

Besides, I’m starting to be of age where I’m forced to be proud of it, not hide it!

[Nostris]

I was also going to suggest you contact Mike Sacristan, who is on this forum and lives in Stockholm. He knows of an EUC shop that has spares and does repairs. 

[Camenbert]

No brand, no wheel is perfect, Inmotion, Sherman, etc, have also their issues, you didnt have any yet on your MCM5.

The best value for your money would be to purchase upgraded batteries.
I'll contact sellers to get a quote on-just-swap-in 800Wh ones.

Or then calculate what each extra kph cost.