The trend toward larger wheels.

[Gasmantle]

I've just been doing a bit of musing over the way the EUC hobby is developing and looking at the wheels currently on the market. It's quite apparent that over the last 2 - 3 years wheels have become larger and heavier in a quest to deliver more power and added range, very few new wheels are aimed at the the beginner / casual rider. It seems that now 2000w motors, 3" tyres and 1600wh batteries are becoming the norm.

Assuming technology keeps improving at the present exponential rate it may be possible in a few years to buy a lighter wheel with same power and range as some of todays beasts.

If you could buy a lighter / smaller wheel with the same performance as the high end wheels of today would you buy one? 

I guess I'm kinda 'old school' I've just bought a KS16X and love it but it would be better still if it was half the size. If technology improves so that I can have 30+ mph and 50+ miles of range in a Inmotion V8 size of wheel I'd buy one tomorrow.

Are wheels becoming larger just to accommodate better performance or are they larger because riders prefer that ?

[Planemo]

I think the V8/V10/KS16X/Tesla size of wheels will always be a big seller and it would be madness for the manufacturers to drop that market. But I honestly don't see any technology on the horizon which will give a genuine 50 mile range/30+ mph capability in a KS16X package. The nearest thing I can think of (and not just saying it cos I have one for sale) is the 100v 1860Wh MSX or maybe the 2200Wh MSP. Even an 84v MSX won't give much more than 33/34mph and thats at full battery so not for long.

That said, the MSX/MSP is a 'small' wheel for it's capability IMO. Compare it to the size of a Nik for example. I'm not even convinced that an MS series would feel much bigger/heavier than a 16X tbh. The 16X would be more nimble for sure, but it's not so great a difference that it would be an issue once you are used to it.

To get 50+ miles and 30+mph from a V8 sized wheel is beyond our readily available motor and battery tech, even in a few years imo. Maybe one for Elon to take up  but in answer to your question no I wouldn't buy one even if available because if I am going to do 50+ miles I want the comfort that only a bigger diameter wheel can give. Anything smaller than a 19" just feels too twitchy for me at 25mph + as well. It just makes riding it feel like much harder work - if I could use a term to describe the feel of the wheel it would be 'nervous'. Nothing wrong with that for shorter rides though

 

[redsnapper]

dont forget that your ks16x has very different handling characteristics than a v8 like wheel in part because of the different mass, body size, tire width, motor power etc.  - a v8 that had the specs of a ks16x (or msx etc,) even if it were technically possible would likely be pretty dangerous (speedwobbles, loss of traction,etc). Compare a v8 vs KS16x on even pretty flat trail and the level of comfort/security on the KS16x is just so much higher... I do find that something like a Sherman is getting so big and heavy that it is no longer something you can easily throw in a shopping cart at the store. I guess that's why so many riders have multiple wheels!

Edited May 24, 2021 by redsnapper

[OldFartRides]

After getting used to the s18, the 16s feels like a toy.

Best,

[Roadpower]

Between the KS18XL and the V10F I prefer the V10F because of the significantly lighter weight making it more nimble and comfortable. The lower range is a non issue because I never do the amount of miles in a day to make it an issue. My 18XL can go three days between charges which exposes that it is overkill for my needs. The difference between a 16" and a 18" wheel is too small to appreciate in my experiences of urban usage.

[GoGeorgeGo]

The weight helps a lot with stability as the machine travels faster. Also the tires themselves are WAYYY more comfortable to ride. If you can have monster pro performance at RS weight and tire size im all for it! But i wouldnt want monster pro performance on a v8 form factor absolutely not. The tire is to small and the light weight design will not be comfortable offroad or at speeds above 25-30 mph

Edited May 24, 2021 by GoGeorgeGo

[Camenbert]

38 minutes ago, GoGeorgeGo said:

i wouldnt want monster pro performance on a v8 form factor absolutely not.

Depend what you search, trouble or safety

There will never be enough battery or power because of the security it gives,
but there are too heavy or too big wheel for commuters or who lives in apartment.

 

 

[BruceCLin]

What I really want as the technology improves is a wheel that is MTen3 sized, mid to long range, 25-30mph, can be taken on a commercial flight. Which means a battery technology that is not combustible. That will open up so many more places I can explore with a wheel, different cities, parks, countries, compare to now limited to where I can reach mostly with ground transportation. In fact, now I think about it, I want that non-combustible battery in every wheel.

[Guest]

To answer your question, yes I will buy one when it exists: 1.72 m with 69 kg, it will be a pleasure on a powerful wheel in 14 or 16 inches. Today the heavy weight of 120 kg with 1.95 m are happy in 22 inches. They need motor powers of 2500 w with batteries 25OO wh or almost. I imagine myself on these 'superwheels'.

[EUC Sharkman]

Right now I ride a Tesla and it’s been a good combination of being a somewhat lighter and smaller wheel with a decent performance. My only problem with it is that sometimes I want to go farther than the roughly 20 miles the current Tesla battery allows, but still want to keep that smaller wheel size feel. Most wheels that have that larger battery for long long range is in the 20-24 inch larger wheels with the larger batteries. Not looking to go faster than my normal 20-30 mph...just farther.

 

Fortunately, with the recent AlienRides announcement last week of the Big battery Nikola+, I can get that large battery but still stay in that 16” wheel size.

[Camenbert]

1 hour ago, BruceCLin said:

can be taken on a commercial flight. Which means a battery technology that is not combustible

In fact it's possible today, but it's limited to 100Wh (per pack, but you can take few, as ebike user do with GRIN Ligo - as 10S, take 2 in serie to have 84V)

https://ebikes.ca/product-info/grin-products/ligo-batteries.html

[Planemo]

4 hours ago, TheSlyGiraffEV said:

Fortunately, with the recent AlienRides announcement last week of the Big battery Nikola+, I can get that large battery but still stay in that 16” wheel size.

The issue I have with the Nik (and its a good wheel) is that its bigger than an MSX despite its 16" wheel. Unless you absolutely, totally need the agility of a 16" (bearing in mind an MSX can still be thrown around when you want it to) I cant see the point of a Nik.

Not saying I dont like it, I just dont get it

 

[Scottie888]

31 minutes ago, Planemo said:

The issue I have with the Nik (and its a good wheel) is that its bigger than an MSX despite its 16" wheel. Unless you absolutely, totally need the agility of a 16" (bearing in mind an MSX can still be thrown around when you want it to) I cant see the point of a Nik.

Not saying I dont like it, I just dont get it

 

Not a direct ref to the Nik per se but yes, I agree that an 18" can be thrown around but I would disagree its to the extend of a 16". Physics determine the inertia gyro effect will be significantly higher on larger & heavier wheel/tires meaning more effort will be required. I assume peeps with bum knees (that would be me) should notice this more & the additional torsional stress might even involve pain (err that would also be me).

Plus all things being equal, the same gyro momentum should also mean more get up & go with the smaller wheel/tire. Cos physics demands so.

I know cos I my knee don't complain as much (if at all) riding on the 14" MCM5v2 v the 18" S18 even on identical offroad conditions. The S18 is faster overall esp on whoops ofcos & is def more stable at higher speeds for obvious reasons.

Yes the S18 can do similar things but the MCM5v2 does it so much easier & with more control. IMO ofcos. I won't compare a traditional 18x2.75 to my Tesla cos the 16x2.125" makes tossing around comparos even more superfluous. 

[BruceCLin]

10 hours ago, Camenbert said:

In fact it's possible today, but it's limited to 100Wh (per pack, but you can take few, as ebike user do with GRIN Ligo - as 10S, take 2 in serie to have 84V)

https://ebikes.ca/product-info/grin-products/ligo-batteries.html

That's pretty sweet if a manufacturer design a wheel with slots that can insert 4-8 of these kind of batteries before a new generation of battery is invented. Ideally for the future, I hope there will be a new type of battery that's completely stable so no rule is to be created to limited the transportation of it at all. As far as I know, the current rule regarding battery is only for lithium iron chemistry.

[Planemo]

6 hours ago, Scottie888 said:

 I agree that an 18" can be thrown around but I would disagree its to the extend of a 16".

Clearly, physics are physics. I was just suggesting that imo there wouldn't be a huge amount of difference in 'flickability' between a big shelled 16" Nik and the smaller shelled 18" MSX. And if flickability is your game (which I also have no problem with), why buy a 2700Wh wheel. If it's for long distance carving around, I have never seen anyone carve harder on a Nik than an MSX either, although granted you won't get more than 2200wh in an MSX. It's not like you can even add tricks into the equation as a 16X would be a better bet. Unless you want to do tricks all day long

I just see a 16" massive shelled wheel with 2700Wh as a very limited use case.

Not knocking the idea, any variation on wheels is great.

I'm also putting aside the better build quality/waterproofing of the Nik as that aspect hasn't been brought up in the decision to want one.

[atdlzpae]

18 hours ago, Gasmantle said:

Assuming technology keeps improving at the present exponential rate it may be possible in a few years to buy a lighter wheel with same power and range as some of todays beasts.

This won't continue. All of the circuitry and engines are at a good 80% efficiency. Li-ion battery technology is also at it's chemical limits.
There are no low-hanging fruits left.
The only way to improve the range is to move to another technology (fuel cells? sodium-ion? lithium-sulfur?), but it will take at least 10-20 years for another technology to be a suitable replacement.

Our current wheels won't be obsolete for a LONG time.

Edited May 25, 2021 by atdlzpae

[Scottie888]

19 minutes ago, atdlzpae said:

This won't continue. All of the circuitry and engines are at a good 80% efficiency. Li-ion battery technology is also at it's chemical limits.
There are no low-hanging fruits left.
The only way to improve the range is to move to another technology (fuel cells? sodium-ion? lithium-sulfur?), but it will take at least 10-20 years for another technology to be a suitable replacement.

Our current wheels won't be obsolete for a LONG time.

The next frontier will be solid state batteries. Smaller size, higher energy density, longer life without the thermal runaway risks of the current Li-ion. But ya, our current wheels are safe from obsolesce for the foreseeable future. SSB won't be easily commercially available for at least 5yrs (likely even longer) IMO.  

[EUC Sharkman]

54 minutes ago, Planemo said:

And if flickability is your game (which I also have no problem with), why buy a 2700Wh wheel. If it's for long distance carving around, I have never seen anyone carve harder on a Nik than an MSX either, although granted you won't get more than 2200wh in an MSX.

I just see a 16" massive shelled wheel with 2700Wh as a very limited use case.

I think that’s pretty much it, but it’s a use case that fits what I’m looking for at least: Long range capable wheel still considered “flickable”. Before that, the only long range options were really namely the largest wheels available in the Monster Pro, Sherman, and EX/EXN. To be honest, I haven’t considered the MSX as an option since they seem only available in the used market, at least in the US, and the RS which is carried seems to top off at 1800Wh.

[Planemo]

12 minutes ago, TheSlyGiraffEV said:

I think that’s pretty much it, but it’s a use case that fits what I’m looking for at least

Absolutely, if it works for you thats great!

12 minutes ago, TheSlyGiraffEV said:

To be honest, I haven’t considered the MSX as an option since they seem only available in the used market, at least in the US, and the RS which is carried seems to top off at 1800Wh.

Thats a very fair point. An extra 900Wh isn't to be sniffed at I have to say.

[Camenbert]

3 hours ago, Scottie888 said:

But ya, our current wheels are safe from obsolesce for the foreseeable future.

Not sure what obsolesce we are referring to.
Each year we get better wheel, de facto pushing the older ones to obsolesce.

Suspension, IP protection, Onboard screen, Better safety (fire, smart bms, cut out), Fast charger (30mn) or onboard charger, composite body to be stronger and lighter than plastic, Better built quality overall, and what else...

Obsolesce will never end, because it's the synonym of "progress" for who see this negatively.

And in these days billions are invested in battery research,
I won't bet a penny we will stay another 10-20 years with our current 18650 or 21700 batteries !

 

[atdlzpae]

59 minutes ago, Camenbert said:

Suspension, IP protection, Onboard screen, Better safety (fire, smart bms, cut out), Fast charger (30mn) or onboard charger, composite body to be stronger and lighter than plastic, Better built quality overall, and what else...

We're so far advanced that basically any differences in the above factors depend on the manufacturer and the price target.
And some luck when it comes to battery safety, as you can source a bad batch and not know about it.
Suspension is basically the only bigger improvement since KS18XL.

My point is, everything is basically figured out. Since 2019 the improvements are incremental and don't make that much difference to most people.

I'm not talking about speedsters, those will always want the fastest wheel possible...

59 minutes ago, Camenbert said:

I won't bet a penny we will stay another 10-20 years with our current 18650 or 21700 batteries !

I'm 100% certain nothing will dethrone li-ion for 10 years.
Even if the industry finally figures out another chemistry, it will take years to make it economical.

As for solid state batteries, we don't even have one commercially available, it's all still in the labs. It took > 10 years for li-ion to proliferate, and > 20 to achieve current prices.

Edited May 25, 2021 by atdlzpae

[redsnapper]

24 minutes ago, atdlzpae said:

I'm 100% certain nothing will dethrone li-ion for 10 years.
Even if the industry finally figures out another chemistry, it will take years to make it economical.

As for solid state batteries, we don't even have one commercially available, it's all still in the labs. It took > 10 years for li-ion to proliferate, and > 20 to achieve current prices.

Movement by major automakers towards EV should accelerate innovation in batt tech (safety,cost,range,etc.) - I think very hard to predict how quickly this may change based on past use of li-on tech. Cars burning up with people trapped inside is a problem EV makers are highly motivated to solve... 

[mrelwood]

I’m all for small and light wheels, but I’m pushed away by a tiny tire size. I’d definitely be interested in a wheel that weighs a third of the current ones and is shaped as only a tiny shell on top of the tire... As long as it has suspension and a 18” x 3” tire, since they are parameters I won’t be give up on, no matter what.

 It’s quite common that people who have only ridden smaller wheels, don’t see the point of a large tire. But no-one goes back to a 16” x 2.5” or smaller after owning an 18” x 3”.

Edited May 25, 2021 by mrelwood

[atdlzpae]

1 hour ago, redsnapper said:

Movement by major automakers towards EV should accelerate innovation in batt tech (safety,cost,range,etc.) - I think very hard to predict how quickly this may change based on past use of li-on tech. Cars burning up with people trapped inside is a problem EV makers are highly motivated to solve... 

Li-ion cars are already way less flammable than gasoline cars. It won't make a difference when it comes to adoption.
Li-ion's have been in commercial use for 30 years. There were 455GWh of batteries produced in 2020, with projections to increase capacity to 1400GWh in 2025.

Let's say a new chemistry is finally commercially available in 2025... Engineers won't start using it immediately.
This new technology will need to prove itself first. It will need to be extensively tested. And will need to get to the manufacturing scale to keep costs down.

Li-ion already has a huge head start. In 2019 there were 115 plants making Li-ion batteries and more are build every year.

Any new technology will probably need decades to catch up just to manufacturing scale alone. Until it does, it will be expensive as hell.

Edited May 25, 2021 by atdlzpae

[RockyTop]

Right now in the US we are closing coal plants, and preventing any new nuclear plants. We are increasing unreliable energies. We have and have had rolling brown outs for many years in some states. ........ Does it make sense to convert to electric cars when we can’t even keep the lights on?