Kingsong S20/S22 (Confirmed)

[chanman]

12 minutes ago, Rawnei said:

Both PETG and TPU are not durable enough

I haven't seen anyone posting about either of these not holding up, but if we're talking hundreds of miles of operation between failures where the failure is the suspension sticking again and needing to replace a wheel or set of wheels I can live with that level of durability. Probably a better design uses off the shelf POM rollers, but having replacement parts easily printed and the replacement process simple gives some tolerance in parts needing regular replacement.

Edited November 21, 2022 by chanman

[Rawnei]

3 minutes ago, chanman said:

I haven't seen anyone posting about either of these not holding up, but if we're talking hundreds of miles of operation between failures where the failure is the suspension sticking again and needing to replace a wheel or set of wheels I can live with that level of durability. Probably a better design uses off the shelf POM rollers, but having replacement parts easily printed and the replacement process simple gives some tolerance in parts needing regular replacement.

Are you on telegram? That is where the main discussion about these are going on, there's a link on the project page if you want to participate.

[tk463]

11 hours ago, chanman said:

I haven't seen anyone posting about either of these not holding up, but if we're talking hundreds of miles of operation between failures where the failure is the suspension sticking again and needing to replace a wheel or set of wheels I can live with that level of durability. Probably a better design uses off the shelf POM rollers, but having replacement parts easily printed and the replacement process simple gives some tolerance in parts needing regular replacement.

The telegram is quite active because we’re iterating on the filaments.

My TPU rollers were sticky during use, not really better than default suspension with enough PFTE lube, and my PETG rollers died in 3-400 kms of city and light trails with aggressive bonking.

[Rawnei]

Riding in cold weather (0-1c ambient) the other day both me and @supercurio noticed that our S22s started to get speed throttled after a bunch of riding, we investigated and batteries were at or below 5c and it seems firmware then softly applies a 30kmh speed limit.

 

5c battery temp seems to be the trigger for when it happens.

Speed limit is applied incrementally so it's not an agressive thing.

There is no warning prior or any messages, it happens silently.

We're guessing reason is to protect the packs from hard Regen braking at higher speeds.

Is it too conservative, should it be tuned by KS?

No other wheel does this but also no other wheel has the batteries inside huge aluminium heatsinks.

[Tawpie]

Squirted some 3M dry silicone lubricant into the degreased and until now unlubed stock sliders (through the fandango ports in the dust protectors I got, they're really neat that way). Ride quality over the small bumpy stuff is effectively on par with the reworked S18 now. I can live with this, at least until dust season returns... but by then I'll be on roller sliders. Of course, I haven't ridden it much with the lube so there's that, but squirting more dry silicone in is super easy thanks to the dust protector ports!

The dust protectors: great maker/seller, highly recommended

https://www.ebay.com/itm/265826711067

To get here I:

1. degreased the sliders and removed the rubber cleaners, I'll be using the dust protectors instead
2. during reinsertion of the motor/slider assembly, I took the time to 'align' things by starting with the attachment screws barely finger tight and inserting then removing the motor/slider assembly just enough to retighten when the sliders were in their channels
3. shimmed out the top and bottom shock binder bolts so the shock is 'floppy' when the binder bolts are cranked down
4. installed a 500 lb/in 2.8 in travel steel Fox spring (riding weight 135 lbs)
5. installed the dust protectors, this does require removal of the top frame from the battery boxes and may have misaligned things (I was pretty careful not to move stuff but you know how that goes)
6. spring preload is about 2 full turns from the point where the spring is 'captured'. I haven't measured sag
7. liberal squirts of 3M 08897 dry silicone lubricant followed by vigorous working of the suspension as best I could. The 08897 uses acetone as a carrier so be careful to wipe up afterwards and don't catch anything on fire. I'm hoping the acetone doesn't eat the dust protector TPU, I didn't pretest.

I will probably loosen and retighten the screws that hold the tops of the battery packs to the top frame piece with the wheel fully assembled just to see if having the motor/sliders in the channels will help align the battery packs to the sliders... doubtful it'll do anything but you never know! Careful alignment of the slider system on the S18 was necessary to make it work 'more properly', I expect the same is true with S22.

Edited November 23, 2022 by Tawpie

[fbhb]

50 minutes ago, Rawnei said:

No other wheel does this but also no other wheel has the batteries inside huge aluminium heatsinks.

I don't know this to be a fact, but there is a very good chance that the Z10 (being the very first wheel to incorporate a "Smart BMS" many, many moons ago!) MAY also have the same behaviour in cold conditions!

I personally am unable to confirm this, being in a climate that does not suffer from the low temperatures yourself and @supercurio ride in over winter, but at the other end of the temperature spectrum I do know for a fact that Ninebot, through their Smart BMS, does not allow the batteries to start charging if the battery temperature is above a certain level.

I would imagine, given their conservative/safety conscious firmware implementation, that there could well be the low temperature power throttling you describe too! (Don't quote this as a fact though, just my gut feeling from ownership).

Edited November 23, 2022 by fbhb

[Paul A]

42 minutes ago, Tawpie said:

To get here I:

 

Maybe a video next time, if possible, thanks.

[sunstrong]

9 hours ago, Rawnei said:

No other wheel does this but also no other wheel has the batteries inside huge aluminium heatsinks.

The S18 also has aluminum battery cases and they are pretty exposed I think. Even for the front batteries that look like they are protected by the plastic shells, there are vents in the front to keep the batteries passively cooled when riding. You can tell that Kingsong is located in a hot climate haha.

Edited November 23, 2022 by sunstrong

[onkeldanuel]

9 hours ago, Tawpie said:

Squirted some 3M dry silicone lubricant into the degreased and until now unlubed stock sliders (through the fandango ports in the dust protectors I got, they're really neat that way). Ride quality over the small bumpy stuff is effectively on par with the reworked S18 now. I can live with this, at least until dust season returns... but by then I'll be on roller sliders. Of course, I haven't ridden it much with the lube so there's that, but squirting more dry silicone in is super easy thanks to the dust protector ports!

The dust protectors: great maker/seller, highly recommended

https://www.ebay.com/itm/265826711067

To get here I:

1. degreased the sliders and removed the rubber cleaners, I'll be using the dust protectors instead
2. during reinsertion of the motor/slider assembly, I took the time to 'align' things by starting with the attachment screws barely finger tight and inserting then removing the motor/slider assembly just enough to retighten when the sliders were in their channels
3. shimmed out the top and bottom shock binder bolts so the shock is 'floppy' when the binder bolts are cranked down
4. installed a 500 lb/in 2.8 in travel steel Fox spring (riding weight 135 lbs)
5. installed the dust protectors, this does require removal of the top frame from the battery boxes and may have misaligned things (I was pretty careful not to move stuff but you know how that goes)
6. spring preload is about 2 full turns from the point where the spring is 'captured'. I haven't measured sag
7. liberal squirts of 3M 08897 dry silicone lubricant followed by vigorous working of the suspension as best I could. The 08897 uses acetone as a carrier so be careful to wipe up afterwards and don't catch anything on fire. I'm hoping the acetone doesn't eat the dust protector TPU, I didn't pretest.

I will probably loosen and retighten the screws that hold the tops of the battery packs to the top frame piece with the wheel fully assembled just to see if having the motor/sliders in the channels will help align the battery packs to the sliders... doubtful it'll do anything but you never know! Careful alignment of the slider system on the S18 was necessary to make it work 'more properly', I expect the same is true with S22.

Believe me , thats a solution which will last for about 2 days , squeek squeek

[Tawpie]

1 hour ago, onkeldanuel said:

Believe me , thats a solution which will last for about 2 days , squeek squeek

Probably. Maybe I won't need to be ringing my bell all the time!

[Rawnei]

4 hours ago, sunstrong said:

The S18 also has aluminum battery cases and they are pretty exposed I think. Even for the front batteries that look like they are protected by the plastic shells, there are vents in the front to keep the batteries passively cooled when riding. You can tell that Kingsong is located in a hot climate haha.

Ah I see, do you know if S18 had any speed throttling in firmware during cold?

[sunstrong]

59 minutes ago, Rawnei said:

Ah I see, do you know if S18 had any speed throttling in firmware during cold?

This will be my first winter with EUCs and I doubt I'll ride much...but I suspect that it doesn't if nobody has brought it up before.

[Tawpie]

2 hours ago, Rawnei said:

Ah I see, do you know if S18 had any speed throttling in firmware during cold?

my S18 has never throttled in cold.

Here's a tour log of my S22 starting from about 4C with the speed limit being lifted as it warms up. Plenty of battery so it wasn't due to voltage... my other KS wheels drop the speed limit as voltage gets lower (below ~40%)

 

Edited November 23, 2022 by Tawpie

[Rawnei]

7 hours ago, Tawpie said:

my S18 has never throttled in cold.

Here's a tour log of my S22 starting from about 4C with the speed limit being lifted as it warms up. Plenty of battery so it wasn't due to voltage... my other KS wheels drop the speed limit as voltage gets lower (below ~40%)

 

The temp in that graph is for the motherboard and motor not the batteries, to see battery temp (there's 8 sensors per pack) you would have to go into KS app or Softuner directly and you would see that speed throttling happens if any cell hits 5c or below.

Edited November 24, 2022 by Rawnei

[Tawpie]

3 minutes ago, Rawnei said:

The temp in that graph is for the motherboard and motor not the batteries, to see battery temp (there's 8 sensors per pack) you would have to go into KS app or Softuner directly and you would see that speed throttling happens if any cell hits 5c or below.

Correct… but wheels live outdoors and had been cold soaking overnight so they were very close to 4C. Air temp at start of ride was 4C. KS motor and control board temperature readings are suspect, so don’t go by that! 
 

Just showing that there is a non-voltage component to the speed limit on S22 and temperature makes a lot of sense. Batteries would have warmed as the ride started.

I should see if @Seba captures anything from the BMS in the csv file.

[Rawnei]

17 minutes ago, Tawpie said:

Correct… but wheels live outdoors and had been cold soaking overnight so they were very close to 4C. Air temp at start of ride was 4C. KS motor and control board temperature readings are suspect, so don’t go by that! 
 

Just showing that there is a non-voltage component to the speed limit on S22 and temperature makes a lot of sense. Batteries would have warmed as the ride started.

I should see if @Seba captures anything from the BMS in the csv file.

There are cell voltage values in EUC world if you scroll down on the stats screen but those seems mostly incorrect when you compared to KS or softtuner and doesn't match the actual voltage you see otherwise so I think the data is there it's just not complete or reads incorrectly for some reason and pack temperature is not exposed in the UI.

[Tawpie]

Ah. Yes. @Seba is reading the cell voltages so he might be recording battery temperatures in the csv. I’ll have to take a look.

[update]

There is a column temp_batt in the .csv, but its readings are off. That morning it was 4C (5C in the wheelhouse) and the wheel had been sitting there all night, at power on I would have expected temp_batt to report 5 but it recorded 16 in the .csv so... probably not yet something that's particularly useful. We already know the KS reported temp readings on the S18 control board aren't kosher so I wouldn't be surprised if this reading is either wonky or misinterpreted or both. EUCW recorded the string 16, I'm assuming that's a number with units of degrees C but have no data to support that assumption!

Edited November 24, 2022 by Tawpie

[Seba]

42 minutes ago, Tawpie said:

Ah. Yes. @Seba is reading the cell voltages so he might be recording battery temperatures in the csv. I’ll have to take a look.

Currently, EUC World reads all seven sensors per pack and picks the highest value that is presented as pack temperature. When I implemented S20/S22 support, I wanted to simplify things, so I took this approach because at first we don't want our pack to overheat.

But I plan to extend this by adding additional parameters, an also logging all the parameters into CSV log (individual cell voltages and all temperature sensors). Who knows? Maybe I will add this in upcoming 2.24 release?

[Rawnei]

36 minutes ago, Seba said:

Currently, EUC World reads all seven sensors per pack and picks the highest value that is presented as pack temperature. When I implemented S20/S22 support, I wanted to simplify things, so I took this approach because at first we don't want our pack to overheat.

But I plan to extend this by adding additional parameters, an also logging all the parameters into CSV log (individual cell voltages and all temperature sensors). Who knows? Maybe I will add this in upcoming 2.24 release?

The cell voltage values showed on the per cell screen seems off, any ideas about that? It's mostly noticeable if you rode a while there will be a big discrepancy between what you see in EUC world vs KS/Softtuner.

Also I think someone mentioned (author of EUC Watch app?) that it's possible to make the app not produce any beeps when connecting to the wheel, that would be awesome to have in 2.24. 😁

Edited November 24, 2022 by Rawnei

[Seba]

57 minutes ago, Rawnei said:

The cell voltage values showed on the per cell screen seems off, any ideas about that? It's mostly noticeable if you rode a while there will be a big discrepancy between what you see in EUC world vs KS/Softtuner.

Can you send me a screenshots from EUC World and from KS/Softtuner app to support@euc.world ? Also, after capturing a screenshots from EUC World, please send me an issue report from the app menu. I'll take a look at the data and verify if there's any problem.

59 minutes ago, Rawnei said:

Also I think someone mentioned (author of EUC Watch app?) that it's possible to make the app not produce any beeps when connecting to the wheel, that would be awesome to have in 2.24. 😁

Again I'll ask you for small helpt  Can you install newest KS app, connect your S22 and send me screenshots from all available, wheel-related screens (settings, params etc.). I don't have S22 at hand now, so I would like to prepare before I get one for final testing.

[Rawnei]

58 minutes ago, Seba said:

Can you send me a screenshots from EUC World and from KS/Softtuner app to support@euc.world ? Also, after capturing a screenshots from EUC World, please send me an issue report from the app menu. I'll take a look at the data and verify if there's any problem.

Again I'll ask you for small helpt  Can you install newest KS app, connect your S22 and send me screenshots from all available, wheel-related screens (settings, params etc.). I don't have S22 at hand now, so I would like to prepare before I get one for final testing.

Will do.

[spitfire1337]

Got my replacement controller in today (I bought one from ewheels and still waiting on revrides to get theirs in stock for the warranty replacement so I'll have a spare should anything happen again), CNC sliders arrive on Tuesday, and my barrel bolts for the shock left US customs today. The eagle will be flying again soon!

[Tawpie]

On 11/23/2022 at 11:57 PM, Rawnei said:

Also I think someone mentioned (author of EUC Watch app?) that it's possible to make the app not produce any beeps when connecting to the wheel, that would be awesome to have in 2.24. 😁

@enaon had mentioned how he was able to accomplish this for EUC Watch.

[NErider]

My battery pack temps seem to be very incorrect. I had it in the cold, not turned on all day. I turned it on and instantly opened the app. It showed 40*F on the motor, and 60*F on the Batteries. 

I'm not sure if that's a problem, or if it is a good thing that would prevent throttling in the cold?

The wheel is on Version 2.21 and the batteries are version 2.08  I have only used the EUC world app on this wheel. It says "Firmware is up to date".

[spitfire1337]

Got my S22 back up and running. Shout-out to ewheels for not only being the only stateside distributor with a controller in stock, but also being cheaper than aliexpress and super fast shipping through the holiday week.

Also installed the CNC sliders from myewheels that arrived today and replaced the barrel bolts on the shock like in Marty's video. Now this wheel is amazing! The suspension is so smooth and kush, I've yet to take it for a fast ride around town since I just finished up and it's 12:30am but first thing tomorrow I'm going for a rip on this bad boy. 100% the way the wheel should come from kingsong.

 

Also noticed the new controller has a different firmware. I'm pretty sure my old one was up to date and had 2.22 and 2.12. This one has 2.23 and 2.15, but I could be mistaken. Can anyone confirm?

Edited November 30, 2022 by spitfire1337