Kingsong S20/S22 (Confirmed)

[jrhz06]

54 minutes ago, Forwardnbak said:

what i really liked on this video was the balance demonstration. That’s something i kind of didn’t really think about much. I know it makes a massive difference to my motorbikes. 

 

To me that balance point seems like one of the first things that should be considered, when designing a wheel which focuses so much on balance.

Thinking about today felt like just another thing on the KS list that feels poorly implemented. 

Perhaps it will work for some people but only some time on it will tell. 

I wonder if changing out the shock to an air shock would help. The coil spring shock for the S18 weighs a lot more than the air shock.

[Rollin-on-1]

4 hours ago, Eucner said:

I've very little trust in S22's sliding system. It is inherently bad engineering. Fixing it needs a major overhaul for the wheel. Only KS is capable of doing it,

I respectfully disagree.  I think cleaning out the grease, coating the channels with PTFE is a good start and easy to do.  Going a step further and replacing those rectangular bits that are attached to the supports with a more appropriate material (perhaps POM, Delrin, or UHMW as discussed in many previous posts) will be another easy, affordable, and effective upgrade.  These upgraded pieces could even be shaped to scrape the dirt and debris from the inner channel walls and eject it out of the channels with each bump.  KS could do this, but this is minor as DIY or aftermarket compared to the mods done on other wheels in the past.  

[Paul A]

S22 vs Master Vs Sherman Max Uphill footage comparison

251 views · 2 weeks ago

 

[Eucner]

1 hour ago, Rollin-on-1 said:

I think cleaning out the grease, coating the channels with PTFE is a good start and easy to do.

Yes, it would be a good start. Unfortunately powdered PTFE doesn't stay very well on vertical surfaces. You need to add it very often. A better way is to impregnate anti-friction component into the slider material.

1 hour ago, Rollin-on-1 said:

Going a step further and replacing those rectangular bits that are attached to the supports with a more appropriate material (perhaps POM, Delrin, or UHMW as discussed in many previous posts) will be another easy, affordable, and effective upgrade.

This certainly needs to be done. By the way POM and Delrin are same stuff. Delrin is just a brand name for POM material.

1 hour ago, Rollin-on-1 said:

These upgraded pieces could even be shaped to scrape the dirt and debris from the inner channel walls and eject it out of the channels with each bump.

This is not so easily done, especially when the wheel keeps throwing more dirt into the groove. There should be a inner fender protecting the grooves. This is were the major overhaul starts.

[Esash]

One strength of the S22 over the Master is the adjustable pedal height.

While I'm pretty confident the Master is the superior wheel overall, it's entirely possible that a lot of upcoming Master owners don't really like the ultra-high pedal height of the Master.

This high pedal height becomes a problem in stop and go urban riding, where the rider has to dismount and then mount over and over.

I'm sure it's a skill that can be ... mastered, but it definitely greatly complicates street crossings, especially when you only have a limited window before a speeding car approaches. If you don't stick the vertical foot motion and the foot landing and the acceleration before you lose balance, you could be fender food in certain situations.

Anyway like I said I'm sure it's a skill that can be mastered, and I think the key is using your off knee to support the wheel, and to push forward aggressively so that you have good forward momentum before lifting up your foot onto the pedal.

If I was doing food deliveries or something in a big city center, I might prefer using the S22 on the lowest pedal height over the Master. While lowering the pedals on the S22 maybe/probably negates some of the suspension travel, all that suspension travel isn't even necessary in urban environments.

[techyiam]

7 minutes ago, Esash said:

One strength of the S22 over the Master is the adjustable pedal height.

The actual pedal adjustment range is rather limited. However, one can reduce the suspension travel by quite a bit, which in turn will lower the pedal height by the same proportionate amount. The catch is that if you want to reduce pedal height by a significant amount, then you would have to sacrifice suspension travel. 

Without the 130 mm of suspension travel, the S20/22 loses a lot of its luster, though. 

 

 

[redfoxdude]

6 hours ago, techyiam said:

Jimmy Chang has shown in his review video of the S20/22, the effects of compression damping with the rebound damping setting left at the lowest setting (quickest rebound). In Adams video, it is possible that the rebound damping is set too high (over damped), and/or stiction has gotten too high too.

My vote is for stiction. The S20/22 demo wheel I tried was practically seized. I'd love to try one when it's running smooth, but that demo left me much less convinced of the slider design. But hey, maybe regular flushing and re-lubing could keep it really good. I presume no maintenance was done on the sliders of that demo unit.

Edited April 29, 2022 by redfoxdude

[mrelwood]

 

On 4/29/2022 at 12:37 AM, Driftcycle said:

there is no debate the S22 have better suspension.

This was a much more obvious claim in the S18 vs V11 fight, yet KS lost there too. Better design yes, but ruined by a much worse implementation.

 But when it comes to the S22 vs Master, the Master is the one with a better design on paper. And as Wrong Way’s video (and many others) shows, the Master’s implementation is also better in practice. Simply having a coil spring is a completely moot point when the actual practical differences are this large.

 

On 4/29/2022 at 12:37 AM, Driftcycle said:

So buying the Master now will guarantee it will be outdated by 2023 Spring, however the Kingsong S22 will not, just minor upgrades.

Sounds like you could be suggesting a bit of brand loyalty here. As far as I’m concerned, it’s starting to seem like Master could be the one that makes the S24 outdated. It doesn’t need to be a KS product to do so.

 

22 hours ago, Driftcycle said:

No one yet have said the Master have better suspension than the S22 despite the potential problems with the linkage and sliders

… that you have heard. I’ve heard many say exactly that in direct comparison videos.

22 hours ago, Driftcycle said:

however a few have mentioned they already feel the Master is close to bottoming out.

And this one hardcore off-road rider whose name escapes me ATM, bottomed out the Master suspension many times. And kept going. And going. Depending on which part of the suspension takes the blow, bottoming out can be a completely non-event. Like it is on the V11, the sliding range is simply limited by a bumper. No big deal, no harm done.

 But as always, everyone has to explain their purchase decisions to themselves somehow. The S26 can be an enjoyable product whether the Master (or the “V13”) has a better suspension or not. If you choose to go with the S28, don’t worry about the public image. You do you and be happy with your choice, whether others agree or not.

Edited April 29, 2022 by mrelwood

[supercurio]

@mrelwood implemented a +=2 counter for each S20 mention.
Clever way to future-proof your forum messages!

[Grimm10]

Wait until we start getting on the fly electric adjustable shocks like on snowmobiles.

[chanman]

Shame that the master is looking to be the more capable wheel. I was getting to the point where I was comfortable to get the S22 as my S18 upgrade even with its flaws through the rounds of demo units and testing and validation. Going to be several more months before enough master's have been in enough hands for long enough for me to have confidence it its reliability to buy one myself, even though the new wheel itch is real.

Of course I know what I can do with the S18, and an S18 with more power and range sounds fantastic, and I trust kingsong to deliver a better quality and more robust product than begode, even though the Master may be more powerful, I don't need 100% of what it's offering. So I go back and forth again.

Edited April 29, 2022 by chanman

[Simonm]

After looking at a lot of the tear down videos, I like the Kingsong approach to most of their design and safety.  The fire thing is very concerning but I can see how they could be able to mitigate that without too much effort (depending on exactly what was the problem). However the battery packs don’t seem to be terribly well protected in the aluminium housing (the battery pack wasn’t wrapped and it is hard to tell if there is a suitable mounting system to prevent rattling around in the housing). That slider mechanism though totally negates the implementation of suspension.  No matter what lubrication you put in there and no matter what the slider blocks are made from, if dirt and debris can freely enter the slider tracks it will bind the suspension and given enough time permanently damage the battery case.  It will be very interesting to see if Kingsong tries to remedy this as it does seem like a bit of a fatal flaw for the product. 

Edited April 29, 2022 by Simonm

[Tawpie]

37 minutes ago, chanman said:

the Master may be more powerful

Not terribly surprising to me (expected, actually). I do expect KS is going to say "no" well before BG will do that, and oddly that's important to me! Sure, it's kind of irritating to have a nanny but sometimes I should have one.

When my S30 arrives, I'm gonna head to @Ginger On Wheels's hill and see if it underperforms the 16X. Or not. I'd hate to be disappointed.

Edited April 29, 2022 by Tawpie
can't add... 28+2 is not 40

[Paul A]

Just wait a year and find out the realities.

[NErider]

One interesting thing I have noticed after having watched most every KS review vid available. I have seen zero mentions or actual footage of any dirt or debris which "clogged" lor locked up the suspension. 

I don't know if that is a real concern. It sounds like it could be, but it hasn't shown to be the case. 

As for Wrong Way's display of suspension response. That's just silly. You can click the dials on rebound and compression settings to get it to bounce around like that. I can exactly the same, either tighter or looser on my S18. 

A question I have is Begode has C38 and C-whatever motors in the wheels. And generally we know what to expect for power capability. I am interested in what specs and type of construction KS motors are. Are they the same? Different windings, magnets? How do they compare mechanically? 

[Tawpie]

19 minutes ago, NErider said:

I am interested in what specs and type of construction KS motors are. Are they the same? Different windings, magnets? How do they compare mechanically?

I'll have to watch it again, but I recall that Ecodrift's S20/22 teardown measured the motor magnet width at 30mm, which is the same width BG uses in their "C30" motor (the Master has the C38 motor, its magnets are 38 mm wide and it is BG's "high torque" configuration). Beyond that, I don't recall anyone counting windings or anything like that. To my knowledge, nobody has published measurements of the magnetic permeability of the winding cores or paid much attention to the spacing between the rotor and stators or the flux density of the permanent magnets. They're both "hollow bore" designs, but that as more to do with load bearing and the ability to get thick wires into the motor housing.

We've been pretty happy with using the motor rating to infer that one wheel is more powerful than another, even though motor rating isn't a particularly precise indicator of how much thrust it'll produce at the tire/ground interface. Bigger numbers are automatically better, right? Works for computers. And cell phones. And so on and so on.

[redfoxdude]

36 minutes ago, NErider said:

As for Wrong Way's display of suspension response. That's just silly. You can click the dials on rebound and compression settings to get it to bounce around like that. I can exactly the same, either tighter or looser on my S18. 

True, though the demo S20/22 that I tried was like Wrong Way's, and playing with every which adjustment combination on compression and rebound damping didn't help - it was the sliders. My concern isn't debris clogging and locking up the suspension, my concern is the notable increase in friction from debris, which affects the performance and probably longevity of the slider surfaces. I think it's gonna be important on this wheel to clean and maintain regularly.
I wish I could find them, but I have seen videos with the shock removed and there is still a lot of friction. Lifting the chassis and letting it drop, it didn't just drop down effortlessly, but rather slowly slinked down. My S18 was like that until I got the motor clamps shimmed to align the sliders.

Edited April 30, 2022 by redfoxdude

[NErider]

19 minutes ago, Tawpie said:

I'll have to watch it again, but I recall that Ecodrift's S20/22 teardown measured the motor magnet width at 30mm, which is the same width BG uses in their "C30" motor (the Master has the C38 motor, its magnets are 38 mm wide and it is BG's "high torque" configuration). Beyond that, I don't recall anyone counting windings or anything like that. To my knowledge, nobody has published measurements of the magnetic permeability of the winding cores or paid much attention to the spacing between the rotor and stators or the flux density of the permanent magnets. They're both "hollow bore" designs, but that as more to do with load bearing and the ability to get thick wires into the motor housing.

We've been pretty happy with using the motor rating to infer that one wheel is more powerful than another, even though motor rating isn't a particularly precise indicator of how much thrust it'll produce at the tire/ground interface. Bigger numbers are automatically better, right? Works for computers. And cell phones. And so on and so on.

Very good info thanks! Makes sense. Bigger magnets, bigger surface area to make power. I didn't know the C-Number matched magent sized. I just assumed it was a model number of some sort. 

[Driftcycle]

I see a few have chimed in, so responding broadly - Not sure why I have to keep repeating the same thing in each post but here goes - It is widely accepted that S22 have the best suspension thus far, not sure why I have to defend this on a S22 thread, we have seen demo days from evees, hsiang, rev rides and e-rides where there are multiple feedback from several (plural) users and less than 10% said anything negative about the suspension. A rider can tell within 5 mins of riding any wheel if it's the best suspension that rider have experienced. Even Tishawn in eVx video went down stairs for the first time and many others have echoed the same.

On the other spectrum we have a singular opinion sprinkled across YouTube. etc through a few riders where some have brand loyalty and others may have a history of being biased towards Kingsong. I guess we can use Wrong way as an example (although the sliders observation was valid but as others have stated can be fixed via DIY). I'm not buying that the V11 can go where the S22 cannot.

Now do the S22 have faults? - Yes - no one is denying that - not enough Tourqe for some, plastic materials and the ever fluctuating firmware tweaks to balance safety and performance, pads and pedal positions etc.

In a perfect world we would just buy both wheels until the God wheel arrives with solid state batteries. Until then a smart choice must drive your decision, everyone have different parameters so this is not one size (opinion) fits all.

So for me I just ask myself a few questions - assuming Kingsong put out the best suspension wheels - what is the likelihood the next generation suspension is shipped by spring 2024? Very Low

- assuming Begode have the best torque wheels - what is the likelihood they release an updated  HT Master within 6 months or release the Admiral to challenge the V13 by the end of the year? Very high

So if there are others like me that value both torque and suspension equally, I say getting the best suspension now with not the best torque is smarter as the torque maybe improved by batteries/firmware although may not reach the level of the Master, however you can buy a more refined Master next year with more torque that may get closer to the S22 suspension.  And then one will have both wheels - the S22 and a better torque Master  the best of both worlds or your God wheel split in two.

Alternatively to me, buying the Master now when a better HT Master is around the corner is not worth it unless I value torque more than suspension which a lot of users  do so they are making the right decision. 

Edited April 30, 2022 by Driftcycle

[Tawpie]

57 minutes ago, redfoxdude said:

increase in friction from debris, which affects the performance and probably longevity of the slider surfaces

This, "friction from debris" is actually on purpose because if you can reduce the ability of the sliders to move, you're prolonging the longevity of the channels in the battery box by protecting it from abrasion. And you reduce bottoming out, which helps preserve the landing areas on the pump tracks and avoids dangerous coil lock. Plus, it's less exhausting to mount because the pedals don't get so dang high and squish down when you step on them. With this feature, you have a (messy, time consuming) way to almost lock the suspension out, can't say that about most other suspension wheels in their stock configuration.

  Yeah! That's it! (I could have made a fortune in marketing)

Edited April 30, 2022 by Tawpie

[techyiam]

2 hours ago, NErider said:

I have seen zero mentions or actual footage of any dirt or debris which "clogged" lor locked up the suspension. 

Time-stamped. 

 

[mrelwood]

3 hours ago, supercurio said:

@mrelwood implemented a +=2 counter for each S20 mention.
Clever way to future-proof your forum messages!

You got me! Have a guess how my next post about 18” tires is going to go… 

 

3 hours ago, chanman said:

even though the Master may be more powerful, I don't need 100% of what it's offering.

I don’t quite get that approach. Do you absolutely need 100% of your house’s square feet? Or your car’s horse power, despite your car staying upright just fine if the power reserve is fully utilized? Headroom is the key word in EUCs, and here we have it.

 Many people use the same reasoning not to buy a guitar amp that has effects built in. Instead they buy an amp without the FX, even if it weren’t as good of a match otherwise.

 I’m very aware that my next EUC will be way faster than I’ll ever use, but that doesn’t bother me one bit as long as the other specs match.

 

1 hour ago, NErider said:

I have seen zero mentions or actual footage of any dirt or debris which "clogged" lor locked up the suspension.

In a system like the S22, it doesn’t take more than a very thin layer of dirt stuck in the system for it to ruin the suspension action. It’s not like it would be pouring out sand by a handful.

1 hour ago, NErider said:

As for Wrong Way's display of suspension response. That's just silly. You can click the dials on rebound and compression settings to get it to bounce around like that.

And why would WW, the most vocal BG disser, be doing that? Like @redfoxdude commented, it’s not about the adjustments.

 

27 minutes ago, Driftcycle said:

It is widely accepted that S22 have the best suspension thus far

Had.

27 minutes ago, Driftcycle said:

we have seen demo days from evees, hsiang, rev rides and e-rides where there are multiple feedback from several (plural) users and less than 10% said anything negative about the suspension. A rider can tell within 5 mins of riding any wheel if it's the best suspension that rider have experienced. Even Tishawn in eVx video went down stairs for the first time and many others have echoed the same.

Nobody had tried the Master at that point, it came out after all the events you mentioned. Besides, barely anyone of the riders who commented on the S22 suspension ride a suspension wheel themselves, so they are definitely not equipped to evaluate whether the suspension was good in relation to other suspension wheels or not.

27 minutes ago, Driftcycle said:

I'm not buying that the V11 can go where the S22 cannot.

Right. Again, why would WW imply something like that, and even clearly show it in a video if it weren’t true?

27 minutes ago, Driftcycle said:

So for me I just ask myself a few questions - assuming Kingsong put out the best suspension wheels - what is the likelihood the next generation suspension is shipped by spring 2024? Very Low

Incorrect. Inmotion will have their new flagship out well by then, and BG will have released probably at least two new suspension wheels. Even if KS did  currently make the best suspensions around (which it clearly doesn’t), to think that none of the future wheels from other companies could thwart the S22 suspension is a bit naive.

27 minutes ago, Driftcycle said:

assuming Begode have the best torque wheels - what is the likelihood they release an updated  HT Master within 6 months or release the Admiral to challenge the V13 by the end of the year? Very high

No matter how godlike their next wheel would be, it wouldn’t steal a single Newton of the current Master’s torque. If it’s a good wheel now, it’s still at least a pretty good wheel then.

It sounds like you’d somehow be tied to the manufacturer you now choose, even for your next purchase. You’re not buying company stock here, you’re choosing between two different wheels, just like you will be the next time you buy a wheel. You’re not closing any doors by choosing either one, and other manufacturer’s wheels will still be able to outdate your wheel.

 It’s great that you have made your decision, but in sharing your reasoning you put it out for public scrutiny. It may be worth considering if that’s something  you want or not.

[redfoxdude]

3 hours ago, mrelwood said:

Besides, barely anyone of the riders who commented on the S22 suspension ride a suspension wheel themselves, so they are definitely not equipped to evaluate whether the suspension was good in relation to other suspension wheels or not.

I think there's some truth to this. I've found that folks that don't ride suspension regularly prefer a lack of small bump compliance for the familiarity (to feel connected to the road, vs underdamped and floaty) and setup the suspension either way too preloaded and stiff in the case of coils, or air shocks with not enough air and practically 80% sag. This is just my personal experience, however.

After finishing my test rides on the S20/22 and Master, a friend mentioned that although they felt the Master was smoother, they preferred the coil shock on the S20/22 and wanted to try a coil on the Master. But that S20/22 had quite a bit of stiction, not characteristic of a coil. (Coils are great for the opposite, less stiction than air shocks.)

I definitely get why folks like a "harsher" suspension, though. You lose the small bump compliance and improved traction, but it rides more familiar to non-suspension, and you still retain the rear-end-saving large bump protection. But I'd personally rather get that effect by tuning the shock rather than a sticky slider, however.

Edited April 30, 2022 by redfoxdude

[Tawpie]

Why are the S32 flaws and shortcomings so important to Master fans? It's kind of weird to have a topic discussing the S34 turn into a my-favorite-is-way-better-and-this-wheel-is-trash urinating contest.

Did not Zen Lee, in spite of his love for the Master also mention that in a single ride he managed to break his trolley handle (with his knee?), got bounced off the wheel by the bouncy suspension, and in one unplanned dismount bent the kickstand and broke the taillight? Does this give the S36 pre-order holdouts license to hop into the Master topic to 'warn' everyone about how fragile the Master is and point to Zen Lee as proving that Master is clearly not a wheel for off-road? I certainly hope not. Expectant Master owners have a lot to be pumped about—it's going to tick a lot of the boxes they need ticked. What good does it do to poison their well?

I'm still excited and anxious to get my wheel. I had enjoyed this topic as a place where we could chew our first-batch nails together, wonder, hope, plan, dream, worry... but it's morphed into something much less pleasant to read.

 

Edited April 30, 2022 by Tawpie

[chanman]

14 minutes ago, redfoxdude said:

air shocks with not enough air and practically 80% sag

I was guilty of this until recently on the S18. I blame it on being very difficult to actually get enough air in the damn thing at like 220 psi with the pump they give you.