Kingsong S20/S22 (Confirmed)

[Esash]

Just now, jrhz06 said:

So help me understand how a comparison of two Begode handles let’s you come to the conclusion that the S20 handle is “breaky “?

 

1 minute ago, jrhz06 said:

So help me understand how a comparison of two Begode handles let’s you come to the conclusion that the S20 handle is “breaky “?

You erroneously assumed that Begode handles had something to do with my noting that the S20 also seems break-y.

The S20 has a lot of externally mounted, often plastic parts, like the headlights that fall off on any decent fall. And the back kickstand which broke off almost immediately on all the test wheels. 

It remains to be seen if their new and improved front bumper will be resilient and not smash to pieces easily.

 

Here's the Hero tumbling down a steep rock hill and coming out relatively unscathed:

Chance also said that the air shock top section of the S20 suspension either popped off on a fall, or seemed like it was about to.

 

[redfoxdude]

4 hours ago, Esash said:

Chance also said that the air shock top section of the S20 suspension either popped off on a fall, or seemed like it was about to.

That would be the piggy-back oil reservoir for the rebound and compression damping. Chance did indeed have the reservoir break off, Chance apparently damaged the adjustment knob (thanks @Tawpie!) and I know of one where the entire reservoir broke off in a drop. Unfortunately in the latter case, it requires replacing the entire shock.

Edited April 27, 2022 by redfoxdude
Correction to different damages to the reservoir

[techyiam]

4 hours ago, Esash said:

Not to sidetrack this S20 thread, but at this time stamp EUC Upgrades points out the superior handle quality of the Hero compared to his already broken plastic Master handle. The S20 seems pretty break-y too:

You are right. The trolley handle on the Hero is made of metal, and is purposely built as a lift-handle as well as a trolley handle. Whereas, in the Master case, the trolley handle is just a standard trolley handle from yesteryear, and is not properly designed for lifting 80 lbs. Yup, Begode cut corner there.

However, as in the S20/22 case, most likely, they will get fixed somehow, eventually. 

Also, good point about the shock on the Hero is tucked in, out of harm's way.

Edited April 27, 2022 by techyiam

[Tawpie]

3 hours ago, redfoxdude said:

Chance did indeed have the reservoir break off

I believe he said he broke the "cap" off, not the entire reservoir. Since there's not really a 'cap', he probably broke off the little knob that sets the compression. eevees did not mention having to replace the shock after Chance finished his trail section, so while it was damaged, it didn't demand immediate replacement.

[Tawpie]

4 hours ago, redfoxdude said:

I know of one where the entire reservoir broke off in a drop

bet that was a mess, and now the wheel is all loosy-goosey.

Calling all makers. We could use something to protect this little protuberance! (it's 'customization' and 'personalization', not making up for a less-than-robust design… right? we mod our wheels al the time so they don't totally break when we flub up )

[Grimm10]

How about a bicycle rack? 😆

[Rawnei]

So I've switched from S20/S22 to Master now after a lot of contemplating and it wasn't an easy choice, I pre-ordered the S20 on first day possible back in August, the main reason I did the switch now was the Master C38 motor. I've owned a MSP HT with the C38 motor and it's just amazing for scenarios where you really need the torque and to power through, for occasional technical riding that I do (steep climbs, skateparks, off-road etc) torque is the one thing I don't feel like I want to compromise with.

My initial impression of the S20 as presented back last year by Jack and KS was that it was going to be some sort of hybrid motor with plenty of torque but as we now know it's just a 30mm magnet motor with potential for higher power (3300w rated), as showcased by some reviewers now almost a year later the S20 sometimes struggles in certain scenarios and pedal dips, I don't think this can be fully remedied by firmware updates because it's just not a high torque motor in comparison to the C38. Anyone who's gotten pedal dips in a technical climb or other similar technical scenarios can attest to how horrible that feels, even if the wheel manages to recover from it it's not a fun experience and it takes a toll on your confidence, vice versa if the wheel feels like it can handle anything without dipping at all it gives you confidence and you can completely focus on planning your path ahead.

The downside for me is the suspension travel, 80mm on the Master feels a bit short, I'm worried that it might be bottoming out in some scenarios, sometimes on jumps, high drops or things like that, I imagine that a 130mm spring coil would suit me better, but with that said I came to the conclusion that torque is more important to me either way.

For many riders I am certain that the S22 will be a great wheel that will surpass what they need from a wheel, if it wasn't for the torque it would tick all my boxes.

 

[Forwardnbak]

11 minutes ago, Rawnei said:

So I've switched from S20/S22 to Master now after a lot of contemplating and it wasn't an easy choice, I pre-ordered the S20 on first day possible back in August, the main reason I did the switch now was the Master C38 motor. I've owned a MSP HT with the C38 motor and it's just amazing for scenarios where you really need the torque and to power through, for occasional technical riding that I do (steep climbs, skateparks, off-road etc) torque is the one thing I don't feel like I want to compromise with.

My initial impression of the S20 as presented back last year by Jack and KS was that it was going to be some sort of hybrid motor with plenty of torque but as we now know it's just a 30mm magnet motor with potential for higher power (3300w rated), as showcased by some reviewers now almost a year later the S20 sometimes struggles in certain scenarios and pedal dips, I don't think this can be fully remedied by firmware updates because it's just not a high torque motor in comparison to the C38. Anyone who's gotten pedal dips in a technical climb or other similar technical scenarios can attest to how horrible that feels, even if the wheel manages to recover from it it's not a fun experience and it takes a toll on your confidence, vice versa if the wheel feels like it can handle anything without dipping at all it gives you confidence and you can completely focus on planning your path ahead.

The downside for me is the suspension travel, 80mm on the Master feels a bit short, I'm worried that it might be bottoming out in some scenarios, sometimes on jumps, high drops or things like that, I imagine that a 130mm spring coil would suit me better, but with that said I came to the conclusion that torque is more important to me either way.

For many riders I am certain that the S22 will be a great wheel that will surpass what they need from a wheel, if it wasn't for the torque it would tick all my boxes.

 

pretty much decided the same thing exact same thoughts. Enjoy it looks amazing, every single review 

[Driftcycle]

As someone who values both torque and suspension, I understand what you are both saying, however I look at the the situation like this - There is no debate that the Master have better torque, similarly there is no debate the S22 have better suspension.

It can be believed that the next Kingsong suspension wheel is probably be 2-3 years after the S22, so like an S25, similarly the next Begode Master will prob be in 6 months say like a Begode Master HT (High Speed) or a Begode Admiral.

So buying the Master now will guarantee it will be outdated by 2023 Spring, however the Kingsong S22 will not, just minor upgrades.

In short, I will stick with the S22 pre-order as I know I will have the best suspension this yr and next yr with possible improvement in torque enough where you don't feel that you haven't missed out too much on the Master and you can always get the Master HT or Admiral next spring which will have a ton more torque than the current Master judging by Begode release history.

Just thinking out loud 💬

[Rawnei]

16 minutes ago, Driftcycle said:

As someone who values both torque and suspension, I understand what you are both saying, however I look at the the situation like this - There is no debate that the Master have better torque, similarly there is no debate the S22 have better suspension.

It can be believed that the next Kingsong suspension wheel is probably be 2-3 years after the S22, so like an S25, similarly the next Begode Master will prob be in 6 months say like a Begode Master HT (High Speed) or a Begode Admiral.

So buying the Master now will guarantee it will be outdated by 2023 Spring, however the Kingsong S22 will not, just minor upgrades.

In short, I will stick with the S22 pre-order as I know I will have the best suspension this yr and next yr with possible improvement in torque enough where you don't feel that you haven't missed out too much on the Master and you can always get the Master HT or Admiral next spring which will have a ton more torque than the current Master judging by Begode release history.

Just thinking out loud 💬

It's about limitations and not upgrades or longetivity, when you hit the limitations of a wheel you feel frustrated, examples: not enough range (range anxiety), not enough speed (constantly riding beeps or getting tiltbacks), not enough torque (pedal dips or wheel even drops you in some cases), those things puts limits on what you can do and how much you can develop as a rider and that ruins the experience because you have to avoid things you want to do.

Having ridden C38 before (My MSP HT I sold) I never felt any limitation in torque for things I wanted to do, so the same motor but at 134V with thicker cables for more current I wouldn't worry about needing even more torque, it will already perform how I want it to there is no doubt at all about that.

On the contrary the S22 would not give me the torque I would want, firmware updates just won't change that as it has a different motor configuration, if you think that the S22 motor will have the same level of torque as a C38 motor you are basically lying to yourself to rationalize the S22. Suspension travel will not help me when I can't do a steep climb I want to do or torque the wheel over a bunch of rocks where I really don't want the wheel to be the failing factor, the suspension travel will not compensate for those things, thus it's just not as important to me.

In regards to newer models, if I don't feel I have limitations on a wheel and it already does everything I want there is no point for me to upgrade just because, who knows maybe I discover in the future that I need even more suspension travel and will be interested in an upgrade but that would be pure speculation.

With all that said I want to emphasize that the S22 will most likely be a great fit for many people that just don't have very high requirement for torque, the S22 will be just fine for many riding styles and scenarios.

[Bizra6ot]

55 minutes ago, Driftcycle said:

 similarly there is no debate the S22 have better suspension.

Not really, yes the travel is higher no debate on this point but that's all in reality

We could see that just like the S18 the S22 has a lot of friction in its linkage which makes it insensitive to small bumps, the main purpose of a suspension is not to dampen big flat jumps or go down stairs but to stick to the ground and on this side the Master seems much more fluid and suitable for this game

 

[Driftcycle]

As I mentioned earlier for those who view torque as more important than the best suspension then the Master is a no-brainer, however for those that view torque and suspension equally important then the best option is to get both but like most of us we will need to choose. 

To me the S22 is the safe choice notwithstanding the potential fire hazard that was hopefully fixed. 

With regards to range there are varying opinions but there are more positives from real world travel (40+ km) - not gunning it the entire way that will satisfy most including me.

With regards to steep climbs and rocks  again we have seen varying opinions but mostly / equally positive which I believe comes down to terrain. We have seen Jack climb hills on S20 and eat up rocks on the earlier iterations, heck even that hill where the guy pose at the top, plus Shibby and Chooch ripping through the forest effortlessly, and Marty tackling overheat hill - so for most that is enough. However if you have more technical trails or more extreme terrain then maybe the Master is indeed a better choice.

With regard to speed not sure I wish to go faster than 35mph as I live in a city but if you need 50 plus bursts then by all means the Master is the best choice.

Both wheels are great but I just believe for the casual rider I will enjoy the S22 more as you can go do more riding casually with suspension than you can do with better torque which will be limitless not limited.

And you can always look forward to a better high speed master if the S22 doesn't cut it for you but you won't be getting a better suspension no time soon.

 

[Driftcycle]

5 minutes ago, Bizra6ot said:

Not really, yes the travel is higher no debate on this point but that's all in reality

 

No one yet have said the Master have better suspension than the S22 despite the potential problems with the linkage and sliders, however a few have mentioned they already feel the Master is close to bottoming out.

[Tawpie]

 Congratulations @Rawnei! I'm betting you'll be very pleased with your decision, and I'm tickled pink that GW looks to be retaining their pure performance crown. I don't see any way that you will be able to get a wheel with more torque and speed than Master... in 2022. Come 2023, GW will release the C40 motor and there will be something to look forward to again.

For me though, the speed and torque of the master are wasted and I do "just like" the S22 suspension design. I like the longer throw with coil over, I like the progressive leverage change. I do believe it'll give me a better experience off road. My desire is to have a longer range replacement for the S18, so I'm actually good with the S22's motor etc., and will gain additional travel and the benefits of coil over. I'm not concerned about the S22 suspension's maintenance requirements—I'll be in there checking on things anyway.

You have to cut me some slack for favoring the styling of the S22… I've always driven econobox cars that were either ugly or just plain boring so having a wheel that looks as cool as my S18 is a guilty, unjustified pleasure. All other things being equal (they're not in truth, but where I care they are), I just haven't wanted to toodle around on a wheel that doesn't look the OMG-that-is-so-far-out part. I am old enough to have complete understanding of when, why and where to use the term "far out".

 

Edited April 28, 2022 by Tawpie

[Curt8892]

What is the purpose of telling the S22 forum that you are going with the Master?

S22 forum talks about S22. It is about making it a better wheel by pointing out issues that can be communicated to King Song and for after sale improvements that the community can make and share.

This is why I read the forum.

There are more than enough influencers out there that will review and judge which wheel is better than the other. I will listen to them and if they persuade me to change or remain with my choice, then I will go to the forum that supports that wheel.

 

 

 

[Rawnei]

8 hours ago, Driftcycle said:

With regards to steep climbs and rocks  again we have seen varying opinions but mostly / equally positive which I believe comes down to terrain. We have seen Jack climb hills on S20 and eat up rocks on the earlier iterations, heck even that hill where the guy pose at the top, plus Shibby and Chooch ripping through the forest effortlessly, and Marty tackling overheat hill - so for most that is enough.

I just want to point out that what you are doing here is rationalization, I know I did the same thing before we didn't have the information and just the manufacturer videos, finally we now have enough non-manufacturer videos to show that no it's not a torque wheel in that regard, we could already guess this when we found out that it has 30mm magnets and videos such as @Ginger On Wheels review confirms what we already suspected, Wrong Way riding up stairs also showed it but that's such a niche thing to do that we can't really see that as a norm and base anything off of that. You mention Chooch ripping through the forest, if you look at how he rides he rides fast and doesn't really do any steep climbs from what I have seen, he seems to prefer speed, flat terraint or downhill so he wouldn't experience dips in his style of riding, if he did I am sure you would have heard him complain, Marty is not an extreme rider (no offense, love Marty), overheat hill is a test of temperature, it's a long climb but not a super steep one, again not the same high requirement for torque and most wheels barring overheating would manage that easily.

So, the most important question you have to ask yourself is what type of riding am I doing and will it be enough for me, not which is best out of the two, if you see Chooch or Marty and say "oh that's how I ride" then you know already it's enough for you.

[Rawnei]

7 hours ago, Curt8892 said:

What is the purpose of telling the S22 forum that you are going with the Master?

S22 forum talks about S22. It is about making it a better wheel by pointing out issues that can be communicated to King Song and for after sale improvements that the community can make and share.

This is why I read the forum.

There are more than enough influencers out there that will review and judge which wheel is better than the other. I will listen to them and if they persuade me to change or remain with my choice, then I will go to the forum that supports that wheel.

It's a forum, we discuss things, I'm an active member, I've talked plenty about the S22 and defending from poor types of speculation when we had lack of information, sharing my thoughts why I'm switching is highly relevant to the S22 since that's what I'm switching from, I think it might be interesting and valuable information to share ones thoughts about things, if you feel offended you can skip my posts.

[Miko.cz]

5 minutes ago, Rawnei said:

I just want to point out that what you are doing here is rationalization, I know I did the same thing before we didn't have the information and just the manufacturer videos, finally we now have enough non-manufacturer videos to show that no it's not a torque wheel in that regard, we could already guess this when we found out that it has 30mm magnets and videos such as @Ginger On Wheels review confirms what we already suspected, Wrong Way riding up stairs also showed it but that's such a niche thing to do that we can't really see that as a norm and base anything off of that. You mention Chooch ripping through the forest, if you look at how he rides he rides fast and doesn't really do any steep climbs from what I have seen, he seems to prefer speed, flat terraint or downhill so he wouldn't experience dips in his style of riding, if he did I am sure you would have heard him complain, Marty is not an extreme rider (no offense, love Marty), overheat hill is a test of temperature, it's a long climb but not a super steep one, again not the same high requirement for torque and most wheels barring overheating would manage that easily.

So, the most important question you have to ask yourself is what type of riding am I doing and will it be enough for me, not which is best out of the two, if you see Chooch or Marty and say "oh that's how I ride" then you know already it's enough for you.

That seems to be a valid arguments to me. What doesnt suits perfectly to this are climbing Chinese tests (40/50° whatever) they tried and published (one of more).

[Eucner]

9 hours ago, Driftcycle said:

there is no debate the S22 have better suspension.

I've very little trust in S22's sliding system. It is inherently bad engineering. Fixing it needs a major overhaul for the wheel. Only KS is capable of doing it, but they won't delay the delivery for it. There no point getting a suspension wheel with stuck suspension. A non-suspension wheel would be a better and cheaper choice.

[Rawnei]

20 minutes ago, Miko.cz said:

That seems to be a valid arguments to me. What doesnt suits perfectly to this are climbing Chinese tests (40/50° whatever) they tried and published (one of more).

Yes those looks great, in fact one has to wonder how it's possible? Simply because they are lighter riders? I'm similar weight to Ginger when fully geared up (around 100kg), if there is a 30-40kg weight difference on the rider (numbers assumed 60-70kg chinese rider wearing kneepads tshirt and light helmet vs me in full motorcycle gear) then that could explain how it's possible. In our local riders group here in Stockholm we have many times seen how a heavier rider can much more easily get the same wheel to pedal dip. So rider weight is a factor also, if you are a 60kg rider you can get away with much more.

[Miko.cz]

1 hour ago, Rawnei said:

Yes those looks great, in fact one has to wonder how it's possible? Simply because they are lighter riders? I'm similar weight to Ginger when fully geared up (around 100kg), if there is a 30-40kg weight difference on the rider (numbers assumed 60-70kg chinese rider wearing kneepads tshirt and light helmet vs me in full motorcycle gear) then that could explain how it's possible. In our local riders group here in Stockholm we have many times seen how a heavier rider can much more easily get the same wheel to pedal dip. So rider weight is a factor also, if you are a 60kg rider you can get away with much more.

Also good point, could be true. Im 87kg with armor + bag, so I hope it will be no problem (I want universal wheel with known issues, GB/GW is no way to me - no matter Master looks interesting to me too for now with many unknowns, yet).

[DjPanJan]

This video show how tragic is s20/22 suspension travel compared to "new" MASTER.

 

My question is this normal or Adam(wrongway) S20/22 is "Broken/bad" after 1000Km and S20 suspension is that bad after some thousans miles/Km ?

 

Is jsut bad pressure setup in S20/22?

 

 

 

[techyiam]

2 hours ago, DjPanJan said:

This video show how tragic is s20/22 suspension travel compared to "new" MASTER.

 

My question is this normal or Adam(wrongway) S20/22 is "Broken/bad" after 1000Km and S20 suspension is that bad after some thousans miles/Km ?

 

Is jsut bad pressure setup in S20/22?

Jimmy Chang has shown in his review video of the S20/22, the effects of compression damping with the rebound damping setting left at the lowest setting (quickest rebound). In Adams video, it is possible that the rebound damping is set too high (over damped), and/or stiction has gotten too high too.

Time-stamped. 

 

Edited April 29, 2022 by techyiam

[Forwardnbak]

52 minutes ago, DjPanJan said:

This video show how tragic is s20/22 suspension travel compared to "new" MASTER.

 

My question is this normal or Adam(wrongway) S20/22 is "Broken/bad" after 1000Km and S20 suspension is that bad after some thousans miles/Km ?

 

Is jsut bad pressure setup in S20/22?

 

 

 

what i really liked on this video was the balance demonstration. That’s something i kind of didn’t really think about much. I know it makes a massive difference to my motorbikes. 

 

To me that balance point seems like one of the first things that should be considered, when designing a wheel which focuses so much on balance.

Thinking about today felt like just another thing on the KS list that feels poorly implemented. 

Perhaps it will work for some people but only some time on it will tell. 

[Paul A]

Need Honda to manufacture EUCs.

They already did it back in 2010.