Power off after charge?

[null]

I recently got a new logic board, v42 with firmware 1.0.56.

When charging it powers itself toward the end of charge, 100.4V. The old board never shut off AFAIK and charged till 100.5V (charger limit I suppose)

if I unplug / plug back nothing happens, but powering on by hand (balancing) then plugging in the charger start the charge again.

Anyone else have this behavior? It could be nice if the EUC stopping charge, but this doesn’t look like it gives any time to balancing.

Edited March 26, 2021 by null

[fbhb]

Hey @null, your New board is the exact same version v42 and firmware as my replacement that recently fried the control board charge circuit yet again (as we have discussed elsewhere). 

After I installed that board it just happened to coincide with @Seba releasing the "Charge control" feature in EUC World and so I had Only used the app to charge the Sherman, around 15-20 times (from approx. 20% to 100% each time). 

Due to my obvious concerns with the stock chargers, this has at least enabled me to monitor the charging cycle from start to finish with the graph/voltage level/amp level readings etc.  Added to that, there is of course a log created each time the wheel is charged to refer back to if necessary!

I set the "Charging control" in the app to:

Battery level limit = 100%

Charging time limit = No limit

Disable battery balancing = Off

Disconnect on finish = Off

With these settings the battery charging always drops down to the balancing phase but the wheel will eventually power off, but it is Always after balancing is completed!

Hope this helps, but feel free to post back if you need to ask anything further.

Edited March 26, 2021 by fbhb

[Chriull]

4 hours ago, fbhb said:

After I installed that board it just happened to coincide with @Seba releasing the "Charge control" feature in EUC World and so I had Only used the app to charge the Sherman, around 15-20 times (from approx. 20% to 100% each time)

Although such logs may look boring - comparing them with logs in one to two years should give one some very nice insights in how the battery behaves! 

Does the sherman report charging current or does one still need the wifi plug?

4 hours ago, fbhb said:

Disable battery balancing = Off

Disconnect on finish = Off

People with the wifi switch could reconsider this settings - the used cells are afair panasonic ncr18650ga? For them a charge cut off current of 67mA is mentioned in the data sheet. This would lead to a 0.67A charge current threshold!

With "disable battery balancing = on" euc world stops charging at about 30W, so roughly 0.3A chargimg current threshold. So already a nice "balancing extension" compared to the 0.67A.

Imho (especially once the tp link hs110 is internationally available ?again?) this should be a great relief for our battery packs - to set both this option to on and stop trickle/floating charging!

8 hours ago, null said:

When charging it powers itself toward the end of charge, 100.4V. The old board never shut off AFAIK and charged till 100.5V (charger limit I suppose)

So such a charge log (including current) should show you about what happened and if this is ok...

Would be, for instance a great idea for the sherman if the firmware has some charge cut off the prevent trickle/floating charging!

[null]

6 hours ago, fbhb said:

With these settings the battery charging always drops down to the balancing phase but the wheel will eventually power off, but it is Always after balancing is completed!

Thanks for sharing :) Doesn't EUCWs charging monitoring use a smart socket to cut the charge? Or does it power off the EUC? On most wheels this wouldn't stop the charging though, but it could as long as the charge goes via the logic board.. (Sherman?)

I use Darknessbot (only an old android phone around) which allows to stop charge (smart socket) on battery % but havent used it yet.

As it is the EUC just powered off with no smart anything around, except I was monitoring the Voltage.
When I get the new charger (which has a display) I can see if it still "pulls" anything.

@Chriull : Yes it would be interesting to see the behaviour over time. Charge cut out handling from the EUC itself would be great. Even if the battery status remains a mystery it would be a safety for those times it if forgotten over night. It would also reduce the complexity of going via an app and a smart device..

edit: The DB logo from last night, its about in the middle. Possibly lost some granularity. Not much to see really, Voltage goes up, tapers, then stops reading (power off) then I get it back by tricking it. Doesn't seem to want to reach 100.5V like it did before.

Voltage (1 day).csv

Edited March 26, 2021 by null

[fbhb]

28 minutes ago, null said:

Thanks for sharing :) Doesn't EUCWs charging monitoring use a smart socket to cut the charge? Or does it power off the EUC? On most wheels this wouldn't stop the charging though, but it could as long as the charge goes via the logic board.. (Sherman?)

Yes, EUC World does need to use the HS110 smart plug for the "Charging control" feature.  When I was still able to charge the Sherman, (before the board fried again), the EUC World charge cycle did allow for the balance phase to take place before the wheel eventually stopped charging and then powered off.  I did not attempt charging without using the  EUC World app, so cannot at this stage offer any further insight on that front.

As @Chriull has mentioned above, I should maybe try the "Charge control" feature with "Disable battery balancing" turned on so that it stops balance charging as soon as 30W is reached, as it was definitely dropping lower than 30W and then powering off from memory!  All I need now is another replacement control board to finally get sent out to me, so that I can give his recommendation a try!

Edited March 26, 2021 by fbhb

[Chriull]

10 hours ago, null said:

When charging it powers itself toward the end of charge, 100.4V. The old board never shut off AFAIK and charged till 100.5V (charger limit I suppose)

Just saw it - the 0.1V _measured_ difference is due to a board swap! So both boards are within a 0.1% range - that's imho a great value not to be expected normally!

Imo just forget to get into the least digits of all these numbers... It's just shown "fake" accuracy. This least digits can just be taken as trend, comparing one charger with one wheel. But temperature changes, aging, etc will already affect this least digit.

 

[null]

11 hours ago, Chriull said:

Just saw it - the 0.1V _measured_ difference is due to a board swap! So both boards are within a 0.1% range - that's imho a great value not to be expected normally

Ah yes, good explanation  I somehow thought the voltage was given by the BMS, but then there isn’t much communication with the board.

Reasuring that the values are close

[null]

Got my new C1200 charger up and running:
It now charges to 100.6V (internal reading) and the Sherman does not turn off by itself. (This is normal behavior, as it should)

So it might be something between the new board and the YZ-450, as it happened both times I charged with it and at the same moment (close to done)

Edited April 3, 2021 by null

[.....]

I have yet to EVER see 100V on my wheel. It pisses me off, to be honest. I noticed with the sherm factory and the ewheels charger. It seems to shut itself off around 99.4 volts and nothing higher. No trickle on up past 100v, nothing. I inquired about this and was told it was bad reporting. Of course, my fluke meter is telling me the same values when taken directly from the wheel. The chargers show to be pushing 100+v but it seems like the wheel tells them to stop? I dont know, but it makes me wonder how much balancing can be happening, if my wheel stops taking voltage so early. I notice this similar behavior on my mten with ewheels charger too. I dont thnk I've ever seen anything above 66v on that 67v wheel.  Warranty is ticking away on the sherm, it would be nice to know if im already suffering a battery issue. Tbh, i dont think the sherm has EVER seen 100V since brand new. The ewheels chargers do the same on my scooter, it stops short of balance. Facotry scooter doenst have this failing, so I use the cheapo and actually see the top voltage I expect.

Any suggestions on how I can top the votage off on my mten and sherm and get a REAL reading? Im about to open her up and check at the pack level, just to be certain the charge port isnt lying or has some resistance that is skewing my readings.

[Planemo]

48 minutes ago, ShanesPlanet said:

Any suggestions on how I can top the votage off on my mten and sherm and get a REAL reading? Im about to open her up and check at the pack level, just to be certain the charge port isnt lying or has some resistance that is skewing my readings.

I think the best way to deal with this is see what the packs will actually take. Focus on whether the packs accept any current.

For example, If the charger is outputting 100.8v and the packs aren't accepting any current then they are IMO charged.

If you use the HS110 with EUCW or can fit an onboard ammeter to the charger (as I have done) it is easy to see at what point in the charge process the batts are simply by looking at the current through the charger. Without the current data you are pissing in the wind really. On my setup, when the charger is showing 150ma or less, the batts are saturated and I am also happy that all balancing has taken place.

[.....]

16 minutes ago, Planemo said:

I think the best way to deal with this is see what the packs will actually take. Focus on whether the packs accept any current.

For example, If the charger is outputting 100.8v and the packs aren't accepting any current then they are IMO charged.

If you use the HS110 with EUCW or can fit an onboard ammeter to the charger (as I have done) it is easy to see at what point in the charge process the batts are simply by looking at the current through the charger. Without the current data you are pissing in the wind really. On my setup, when the charger is showing 150ma or less, the batts are saturated and I am also happy that all balancing has taken place.

Yup, good point. I don't have a setup to monitor amperage, aside from what the charger is telling me. It shows to be trickling down to .3 amp at 100.8 and the charger voltage reading seems within .1v of what my meter tells me. I still only read 99.4v on the apps while charging or at the ports upon immediate disconnect. Maybe the chargers ARE working properly, its just that my packs wont take the 100.v and simply drop back to 99v or maintain the 99.4v while charging, never more. Ironic that I cant get my mten past 66.3V either. My scooter does balance up to 67.2, but not on an ewheels charger.

Edited April 2, 2021 by ShanesPlanet

[Chriull]

53 minutes ago, ShanesPlanet said:

 

... - too slow with typing... 

7 minutes ago, ShanesPlanet said:

I don't have a setup to monitor amperage, aside from what the charger is telling me. It shows to be trickling down to .3 amp at 100.8 and the charger voltage reading seems within .1v of what my meter tells me.

So everything seems fine with charging! No premature cut off by the bms!

7 minutes ago, ShanesPlanet said:

I still only read 99.4v on the apps while charging or at the ports upon immediate disconnect.

You ever measured battery output voltage that arrives at the motherboard and compared this to the app reported voltage? Would be the easiest explanation for the ~1.4V missing.

Just got while rereading that already while charging your charger (and fluke) show 100.8V while app reports 99.4V!? So that really seems to be just an inaccurate voltage measurement by the sherman.

Some (lower!) voltage drop immedeately/shortly after charging is normal, too. And maybe some low tenth of volts by some input protection circuitry.

7 minutes ago, ShanesPlanet said:

Maybe the chargers ARE working properly, its just that my packs wont take the 100.v and simply drop back to 99v or maintain the 99.4v while charging, never more. Ironic that I cant get my mten past 66.3V either. My scooter does balance up to 67.2, but not on an ewheels charger.

Charger output voltages should be expected in some +/-0.5(..1)V range, too. I'd say that's normal deviation and nothing "systematic" with ewheel chargers. Or maybe they check every charger and adjust it to a little bit below max battery voltage. All the voltages can never be axactly accurate - and it's much better for the battery to have a bit lower than a bit higher voltages.

Only i can't really believe they check and adjust every charger? Or maybe this us done on special request already by the manufacturer in china!?

 

On 3/31/2021 at 12:46 AM, null said:

Got my new C1200 charger up and running:
It now charges to 100.6V (internal reading) and the Sherman does not turn off by itself.

Would be interesting what causes the "sherman does not turn off itself" exactly!?

Could be if there is a bms cutoff and if the shermann notices no charging current is comming it turns off after some intervall?

And with some low trickle/float charge current it stays on forever?

This could mean that your yz450 charger turns off once he thinks charge is done?

[null]

10 hours ago, Chriull said:

On 3/31/2021 at 12:46 AM, null said:

Got my new C1200 charger up and running:
It now charges to 100.6V (internal reading) and the Sherman does not turn off by itself.

Would be interesting what causes the "sherman does not turn off itself" exactly!?

Could be if there is a bms cutoff and if the shermann notices no charging current is comming it turns off after some intervall?

And with some low trickle/float charge current it stays on forever?

This could mean that your yz450 charger turns off once he thinks charge is done?

The new charger makes the Sherman heave as normal: by staying on as long as the charger is plugged inn. Here is how it combines:

Old board (LK20-20) + YZ-450: EUC stays on as long as connected (normal behaviour)
New board (LK20-42) + YZ-450: EUC shuts down somewhere close to complete charge. (? not normal)
New board (LK20-42) + C1200 (new charger): EUC stays on as per normal behaviour..

It would be interesting to know why the behaviour is different according to the charger / board version, but I dont have a way to monitor more that what darkness bot logs.. I guess it will have to be filed under "suspicious" as I'll anyway stay away from the stock charger..

[RockyTop]

@ShanesPlanet As @Chriull pointed out. I would not trust the Sherman or any other internal volt meter. I am guessing they are pretty cheap. 

[.....]

6 hours ago, null said:

The new charger makes the Sherman heave as normal: by staying on as long as the charger is plugged inn. Here is how it combines:

Old board (LK20-20) + YZ-450: EUC stays on as long as connected (normal behaviour)
New board (LK20-42) + YZ-450: EUC shuts down somewhere close to complete charge. (? not normal)
New board (LK20-42) + C1200 (new charger): EUC stays on as per normal behaviour..

It would be interesting to know why the behaviour is different according to the charger / board version, but I dont have a way to monitor more that what darkness bot logs.. I guess it will have to be filed under "suspicious" as I'll anyway stay away from the stock charger..

I have a first version and mine acts as you describe the second board. The wheel powers itself off when it gets near full charge. Even if i physically turn the wheel on, THEN plug in the charger, the wheel turns off before it hits 100V.

I guess I'll have to open it and get out my fluke meter to check voltages. I've checked at the charge port and keep getting 99.4v. I HATE opening these wheels, as its inevitable that a screw will quit working or some cheap shit will simply fall apart. Maybe some day we'll see quality plastic and quality screws and quality inserts... Idid upgrade to stainless screws, but iirc, my sherm arrived with one of the 4 screw holes on the top, stripped out. So yeah, attempting to open a wheel when unneccessary, is a lot like throwing dice in a game of craps. Even with top tier tools and knowledge, its an iffy proposition.

Edited April 3, 2021 by ShanesPlanet

[null]

7 hours ago, ShanesPlanet said:

The wheel powers itself off when it gets near full charge. Even if i physically turn the wheel on, THEN plug in the charger, the wheel turns off before it hits 100V.

Yes exactly the same, also the second part. If it was part of Veterans plan why not, but I doubt so, and it doesn’t leave much or any margin for balancing. (If it cuts charging, I couldn’t get a readout)

Edit: rereading your previous messages I see the ewheels charger continues, so probably balancing is done.

Regarding opening the wheel: same I dislike it, more for the wear on the cables, connectors and risk of pinching. At least if it’s just for checking the battery voltages you can do it from the top. If you remove the trolley handle you don’t need to disconnect the LCD and buzer.
Hope you sort it out, strange it would turn off with both chargers.

 

Edited April 3, 2021 by null

[.....]

14 minutes ago, null said:

Yes exactly the same, also the second part. If it was part of Veterans plan why not, but I doubt so, and it doesn’t leave much or any margin for balancing. (If it cuts charging, I couldn’t get a readout)

Edit: rereading your previous messages I see the ewheels charger continues, so probably balancing is done.

Regarding opening the wheel: same I dislike it, more for the wear on the cables, connectors and risk of pinching. At least if it’s just for checking the battery voltages you can do it from the top. If you remove the trolley handle you don’t need to disconnect the LCD and buzer.
Hope you sort it out, strange it would turn off with both chargers.

 

The wheel turns off about the same time the charger turns/stays green. You can watch the charger cycle thru pushing 1amp down to .3amps then green lights, then it does it again. Its a cyclic thing that also cycles the charger fan... on and off on and off, then the wheel just shuts off and charger stays green. I can recycle the power on the charger and it wont charge again until i let the wheel drop a couple 10th from being on. Im guessing the wheel decides it wont take past 99.4v and just calls it quits. Thecharger sees 99.4v as too full to begin charging. If i get it down to 99.2, the charger will charge momentarily and then do the cycle thing again. I personally think its not allowing enough time for a proper balance either, but wtf do I know? It sure would be nice to see 100v once at least. Maybe see 100% charge per either of the apps. I dont know if its even worth opening, as noone seems to know how its inteneded to work. For all I know, its working as designed. Or maybe the design is crap. Or maybe its perfect and my mentality is shit.

Edited April 3, 2021 by ShanesPlanet

[Planemo]

12 minutes ago, ShanesPlanet said:

 I personally think its not allowing enough time for a proper balance either, 

This is my concern also. If its maxing out at 99.4v then I very much doubt it. Though it all rests on how accurate the 99.4v reading is as you know.

It almost sounds to me like some cells have gone out of balance, then when some other cells in the packs hit the cutoff (4.25v) during charging the bms then cuts the charging for all packs (as they are linked) so the unbalanced cells never get fully charged and therefore your overall voltage never gets to 100.8. You can try to isolate this problem by charging each pack individually. For example, I found that one of the 16.8v packs in my 100v conversion was a little low. I charged all the packs individually (2× 84v packs and 2x 16.8v packs) and it has been fine ever since.

How it started I am unsure, I suspect that the 16.8v packs weren't fully balanced from new and the problem became a tiny bit worse every charge, only showing itself as a problem when I had the same symptoms as you. This is the problem we face with multiple packs and large numbers of cells - just a single cell hitting 4.25v will cut charging to everything. A very non-smart system as we know.

[null]

53 minutes ago, ShanesPlanet said:

The wheel turns off about the same time the charger turns/stays green. You can watch the charger cycle thru pushing 1amp down to .3amps then green lights, then it does it again. Its a cyclic thing that also cycles the charger fan... on and off on and off, then the wheel just shuts off and charger stays green.

<guestimations> From what I've seen most chargers do some cycling when going from constant current to constant voltage phase, because when the current drops voltage of the battery does also (I visualise it as pressure), triggering the charger going into the previous CC fase again. Even the small slow chargers flicker the LED for a bit before sticking to green. For chargers that turn off everything including the fan it is a bit more spectacular, it does this on my old JR-T450 (same as ewheels), whereas the YZ-450 flickers the LED and some fan noise (probably from current going up and down) but doesn't actually turn off.

If I remember right the first versions of the e-wheels chargers didn't balance right, and I never insisted with mine because it seemed so wrong (it even made the sound of relay switching off, so probably cut current entirely). Is the behaviour of cutting the fan you describe only from the e-wheels (and is it old?) or also with the YZ? </guestimations>

edit: what I'm trying to get at is that some level of cycling should be normal, but possibly not the full shut off / on.

 

Edited April 3, 2021 by null

[fbhb]

Shane, can you go into the advanced/diagnostic menu and check that at least both battery packs are charging up evenly, whether they actually reach a true 100% or not?  To do this you just need to hold the menu button until it beeps as if you were going to alter the settings, but then continue to hold it down until it beeps again to signal it's in the "advanced/diagnostic menu" (maybe you have already been in here and checked this though?)

If not, once there scroll through All of the options until you get to the Two screens I have attached images of here, "bu" left battery pack and "bd" right battery pack. 

The number on each screen should match if the left and right battery packs are at least charging to same level on each side of the wheel (very important to prevent any real issues in future), which will hopefully give you some peace of mind even if you are not reaching the magic 100.8volts/100% reading!

 

 

Edited April 3, 2021 by fbhb

[Tawpie]

This is starting to sound familiar. The second battery pack I added to my 16X developed an internal fault and signaled charge-stop before the charge cycle was complete. The wheel wasn't reporting full voltage, and disassembly+open circuit voltage check confirmed that neither pack was fully charged. Replacing the duff pack seems to have resolved the problem and I'm now back to charging to 83.9V (app reported, within measurement error for me, it was stopping at 82.4V). I would take the risk to open it up to verify the OC voltage on both packs, especially since you may still be in warranty. Batteries usually don't carry the full warranty BTW, KS only covers them for 6 months, I don’t know about LeaperKim though.

Edited April 3, 2021 by Tawpie

[.....]

Thanks for all the info guys. I did bite the bullet and pull my covers. Luckily i have stainless allens and last time I replaced, I was very gentle in tightening. They came off very easily and no need to even remove pedals. After checking both packs, I came up with 100.2V on both packs. They seem to be exactly the same. So, I guess this is simply a case of terribly out of calibration sensor that reports to the app and the wheel. I guess we cant rely on the reading from the charge port, as that reading also shows 99.4v or something.

@fbhb I did check on the screen a few weeks ago. A buddy of mine @RetroThruster seems to be about as anal about this crap as I am, and he had the same discrepancies I am seeing. It was then that I began to worry. You know how goes, one person worries, they tell the next guy, he worries and thus it goes on and on. My screen says the packs are fine, the fluke meter shows them fine, its just the apps are being told the wrong thing. So, I guess I'll just keep in mind that 99.4 is actually 100.2 on my wheel.

Thanks again to eveyone that offered ideas and didnt point to the obvious fact that I am definitely ocd and thick headed. To be quite honest, the sherm DOES look like a damn fine and simple layout. Now if we could just get them to use top shelf materials and a little tighter specs on ALL the wheels they release, I'd have very litle to bitch about. For now tho, its seems Im simply left with worrying about the tire coming loose. A few beers, a shot or two of whiskey, I doubt I'll worry about that either..

Edited April 3, 2021 by ShanesPlanet