Helmets - do they kill the fun?

[UniGrad]

13 minutes ago, Zopper said:

38 minutes ago, Darrell Wesh said:

If people actually took the time to rationalize EUC riding as a SPORT, then questions will arise about what are we doing to make ourselves successful at our sport. 
 

You would never have a frail skinny guy play on the football field. He would have to pack on some pounds in order to play safely and be able to take hits. I think on the same concept with EUC riding. A level of reaction time and core strength as well as spatial awareness is necessary to mitigate damage from falls or crashes. 

Ehh... I’m sorry, but this is completely wrong. You don’t see frail skinny guys in a top league, but you still see them playing in the park. Sometimes you can see even a group of granddads. Maybe they are more walking than running, but they still the same game.

I guess it depends on what type of EUC you plan to ride. And how you plan to ride it.
If you plan to take risks then be prepared to hit the concrete. And those who aren't prepared will likely be forced to take a long break when they do meet the ground.

[FinRider]

33 minutes ago, Zopper said:

Ehh... I’m sorry, but this is completely wrong. You don’t see frail skinny guys in a top league, but you still see them playing in the park. Sometimes you can see even a group of granddads. Maybe they are more walking than running, but they still the same game.

You missed the point. He was not referring to a friendly game of no tackle football, he was referring to organized football where in college/pro leagues a 250 lb linebacker will come at you at full speed with the intent of taking your head off. it is definitely not the same game  

My 2 cents on this topic is that I compare EUC's to mopeds. Both are capable of reaching the same speed and both are very small. My biggest fear when I am out and about is not falling per se, it is the fact that the ignorant masses who drive around in their cars while speaking on the phone, texting, writing emails, watching youtube and tiktok etc will not notice me. If I cross a street in fron of a car, I will only do so after I have reached eye contact with the driver of the car. This is a habit I developed when I was riding motorcycles and I still 100% adhere to it.

I probably also take it one step further than most. I will not ride without my full face helmet, full body armor, wrist guards and knee pads. I could do away with everything else but the helmet. I wear the protective body gear so that when (not if) I have an accident I will be able to quickly resume riding my EUC. I wear my helmet to protect my life.

The same analogy applies to the football reference above, body gear will keep you on the field, the helmet will keep you on this planet.

 

[Darrell Wesh]

1 hour ago, Zopper said:

Ehh... I’m sorry, but this is completely wrong. You don’t see frail skinny guys in a top league, but you still see them playing in the park. Sometimes you can see even a group of granddads. Maybe they are more walking than running, but they still play the same game.

You missed the point. If someone even were to do a friendly game of football it would almost always be “no tackle”.  Every single recreational game of football for thanksgiving here in the US, I’ve always seen flag football. There’s a reason why no one tackles. Any game you see in the “park” is always no tackle or some form of flag. 
 Riding an EUC for my analogy is like football. Even with the pads you still wouldn’t throw a frail guy into the sport. You wouldn’t throw a couch potato into the game with no reflexes. 
 

It’s a harsh truth that people don’t wish to hear. The very essence of going electric is designed to let the unskilled be able to ride. But just because the activity has become easier to do doesn’t make the dangers lessen. 

Edited December 16, 2020 by Darrell Wesh

[mrelwood]

3 hours ago, UniGrad said:

my recommendation for the person who struggles to wear a helmet. If they at least do what I said they'd be a thousand times safer than what they currently do.

In that you are absolutely correct! If the approach helps even one guy wear a helmet, even sometimes, it’s a worthy recommendation.

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What were you doing/riding?
...
Here's some of the math

Math helps very little in analyzing EUC crashes since there are way too many variables.

I was riding carefully while exploring a new MTB path at jogging speed. A small bundle of grass hid a tall bump in the ground that grabbed the left pedal. The MSX turned left, my left foot moved to the front of the pedal, my forward falling weight pressed at the front of the pedals, and the MSX took off creating a comic book banana peel slip. I don’t know how well I was able to soften the blow with my hands, but I hit the back of my head hard enough to see a flash of stars.

Quote

But if you at least go very slowly then the risk becomes so tiny

The level of risk depends completely on where you ride, how you ride, experience, physique, etc. For an off-roader like me the risks are very different compared to a NY street rider.

To say that fragile people shouldn’t ride the EUC is rather single minded. The amount of value it can bring to anyone’s life - especially to those with a disability - can immeasurably exceed the calculated risk just as well as it can for healthy people.

I’m an advanced EUC off-roader and quite an aggressive rider in general, and without self-balancing vehicles my mode of transport would be a wheelchair. And I heal very slowly. But I surely wouldn’t have ridden 30000km in 4 years on a freakin’ wheelchair!

 Who is anyone to make risk assessment and valuation for other people, healthy or not? And who of you would be willing to give up EUCs for a wheelchair or even a cane?

2 hours ago, UniGrad said:

1. It sounds like a bit of a freak accident.

I see all EUC crashes as freak ones, unless one is measuring the top speed of a GW. A car or a bicycle can hit from any direction.

 The thing is, unlike any other form of transportation, we are separated from anything solid by a single wheel AND freakin’ ball bearings. There isn’t a single moment in riding when we are stable. Anything funky happens, our body can have rotational inertia to any direction at that moment. So the position of our body at the first contact in a crash can vary hugely.

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My biggest fear ... is the fact that the ignorant masses ... will not notice me.

Mine too, which is why I never depend on anyone seeing me. I’m sure we ride alike in this sense.

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body gear will keep you on the field, the helmet will keep you on this planet.

Well said! 👍👍👍

Edited December 16, 2020 by mrelwood

[Darrell Wesh]

31 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

To say that fragile people shouldn’t ride the EUC is rather single minded. The amount of value it can bring to anyone’s life - especially to those with a disability - can immeasurably exceed the calculated risk just as well as it can for healthy people.

I think the premise of an EUC or “hands free Segway” being a personal mobility device suited for the handicap has created this delusion that it’s “safe” to ride if you’re in poor physical shape.
 

 In the same sense that I would say that fragile people shouldn’t play tackle football (they should play flag football instead) is how I’m saying that fragile people should explore other PEV avenues instead of an EUC. Something with a much lower crash rate such as an electric bicycle. 
 

And before you go off and say an EUC is safe if you don’t crash; I’ll say this. Tackle football is completely safe as well, if you don’t get tackled. And we all know the likelihood of both these scenarios is quite low.

Edited December 16, 2020 by Darrell Wesh

[TomOnWheels]

23 hours ago, Rawnei said:

I solved that with a nylon strap and a snap hook that I loop through the helmet and my backpack so the helmet just hangs off the backpack and I can walk around hands free. 😁 Works with any helmet!

This is not a workaround for my usage... I travel with a small backpack, using public transports and regular helmet is just too big for that.

[UniGrad]

1 hour ago, mrelwood said:

To say that fragile people shouldn’t ride the EUC is rather single minded.

Hey I can agree with that 100%. It was more or less a passing thought in response to someone else's comment about this. But now after hearing your perspective, I think you're absolutely right. Who the hell is anyone to tell someone else what risk they should take. Especially if that risk brings benefit to their life.

Also, the risks on EUCs can be almost completely mitigated by riding carefully. A heavy EUC like the Sherman is so extremely stable, that aside from device malfunction, I don't see how you could fall off while riding carefully. It's hard to fall off that thing even when riding like a lunatic .

[UniGrad]

14 hours ago, mrelwood said:

Math helps very little in analyzing EUC crashes since there are way too many variables.

I'm not sure when you read that comment but I edited it a couple of times and added in some more math. But you're right. There's tons of variables. This is just a simplified analysis to demonstrate your point. You said that a 2m fall can threaten your survival. And I showed that you're correct by demonstrating that a 2m fall onto your head without shock absorption (i.e. stiff neck muscles ect.) would be able to kill anybody since it carries 3x the kinetic energy of a 9mm bullet.

So I wouldn't say the math helps very little. The math not only proves a point but also reveals information that is not evident by just looking at the problem. With out the math we'd have no clue what kind of energy is involved in a 2m fall as compared to a bullet.

When you say "there are way too many variables" let me explain how this applies. What I demonstrated was the absolute worst case scenario for falling on your head from a height of 2m while stationary. Any variable involved would only reduce the severity of the fall because. Things like wind resistance, muscle tension and compression, skin elasticity.
Now, if you're moving then everything changes. Things can get much worse because now you could be talking about crashing your head into a brick wall at whatever speed you're moving at.

But the thing is that my math only served to prove your point and only served to disprove my point. But the caveat was that the outcome will never agree with the math. Because indeed there are too many variables. And my point was that the impact will always be FAR less consequential than what the math says. Because your body does everything it can during a fall to minimize contact with the head. This includes rapid involuntary motions of the neck right at impact.
This is why I believe that riding really slow without a helmet is no more dangerous than crossing the road by foot, without a helmet.

Riding slow without a helmet: high risk of low consequence + extremely low risk of high consequence (i.e. freak accident)
Crossing road without helmet: low risk of extreme consequence

For me those things are well on par in terms of a risk assessment.

Edited December 16, 2020 by UniGrad

[Daley1]

17 minutes ago, UniGrad said:

Also, the risks on EUCs can be almost completely mitigated by riding carefully. A heavy EUC like the Sherman is so extremely stable, that aside from device malfunction, I don't see how you could fall off while riding carefully. It's hard to fall off that thing even when riding like a lunatic .

In my experience this is wrong,and so very wrong!

[Darrell Wesh]

33 minutes ago, UniGrad said:

Hey I can agree with that 100%. It was more or less a passing thought in response to someone else's comment about this. But now after hearing your perspective, I think you're absolutely right. Who the hell is anyone to tell someone else what risk they should take. Especially if that risk brings benefit to their life.

Also, the risks on EUCs can be almost completely mitigated by riding carefully. A heavy EUC like the Sherman is so extremely stable, that aside from device malfunction, I don't see how you could fall off while riding carefully. It's hard to fall off that thing even when riding like a lunatic .

The ironic thing about @mrelwood post is him calling a statement concerned about safety “single minded” in a thread explicitly about safety for the head that can be deemed single minded. 
 

How can you vouch for helmets and ATGATT for all but yet somehow lack concern for senior citizens or fragile populations that seek to join the EUC masses. I’m not saying that fragile populations or people in poor shape can’t ride an EUC. Most anyone can. But should they? There are a lot of other PEV’s on the market that are not as.... volatile as the EUC thus making them far safer in normal riding/commute scenarios.
 

 

Edited December 16, 2020 by Darrell Wesh

[Darrell Wesh]

8 minutes ago, Daley1 said:

In my experience this is wrong,and so very wrong!

+1

The reality is that by riding carefully you never gain a skill set needed for dangerous situations. By never breaking free of your comfort zone you’re far more likely to crash in uncomfortable situations. 
 

10 minutes ago, Daley1 said:

Also, the risks on EUCs can be almost completely mitigated by riding carefully.

The only thing that can mitigate the risks almost completely is skill. And lots of it. And you won’t become skillful if you’re careful. 

[UniGrad]

13 minutes ago, Daley1 said:

In my experience this is wrong,and so very wrong!

I don't think that anybody has the experience say whether or not that's wrong. Who do you know that owns a Sherman and strictly rides it at walking/jogging speeds?

I think nobody. But my point was that if someone wanted to use an EUC strictly as a mobility aid, and they just rode the Sherman around at jogging speed they'd be as safe as anything. That is of course once they are adept enough at riding it.

[UniGrad]

8 minutes ago, Darrell Wesh said:

+1

The reality is that by riding carefully you never gain a skill set needed for dangerous situations. By never breaking free of your comfort zone you’re far more likely to crash in uncomfortable situations. 
 

The only thing that can mitigate the risks almost completely is skill. And lots of it. And you won’t become skillful if you’re careful. 

You are spot on my friend. I failed to see this logic. But now that you said it you're absolutely correct. Very interesting stuff indeed.

If your only experience involved riding super slowly and carefully, your chances of falling at those low speeds would still be quite high.

But if you have tons of experience thrashing around like crazy, leaning hard into corners and jumping ect. then once you ride carefully again, it feels impossible to fall.

That's how I feel at this stage. If I'm careful I don't see how I could possibly fall as long as the EUC doesn't malfunction. They are so incredibly robust and stable once you learn to ride them properly. In many scenarios they are significantly more stable than a bike. And a million times more stable than a scooter.

[UniGrad]

44 minutes ago, Darrell Wesh said:

The only thing that can mitigate the risks almost completely is skill. And lots of it. And you won’t become skillful if you’re careful. 

Couldn't agree more with that. ✔100%

Since learning how to do sideways drifting on my 16x I feel like I'm a lot safer than I used to be. Especially on loose surfaces. Just today my Sherman slid sideways unexpectedly on a wet surface and without having any experience with drifting on an EUC I would have fallen off, guaranteed. But I just rode the slide, straightened up and kept going without even getting my heart rate up. It was super casual and I feel like my drifting practice is becoming second nature for knowing how to react during a loss of traction. Rather than going into fear mode I just stayed in riding mode.

And when I do have traction I feel all the more safe. Kind of like, if I'm not gonna fall off while the wheel is sliding, then I'm certainly not gonna fall off while the wheel is rolling normally the way it's meant to. Unless there's some kind of freak invisible pot hole.

Edited December 16, 2020 by UniGrad

[mrelwood]

 

23 minutes ago, Darrell Wesh said:

The ironic thing about @mrelwood post is him calling a statement concerned about safety “single minded”

What I called single-minded was to say that fragile people or people in a bad physical shape should not ride EUC. Because that is directly saying that I shouldn’t ride. And if you haven’t noticed, I’m pretty active here, every day sharing what I’ve learned during the 30000km about EUCs, riding, tires, repairs and mods with everybody. Why? Because EUCs have transformed my life into something with immeasurably more value, fun, social contacts, and of course physical shape. Etc.

And you are saying I shouldn’t ride? If I may be frank, screw you.

I have never said that any kind of riding is even relatively safe, for anyone, in any amount of gear, in any circumstances. One’s personal situation is just one aspect one must take into account when assessing the amount and severity of the risks involved.

23 minutes ago, Darrell Wesh said:

How can you vouch for helmets and ATGATT for all but yet somehow lack concern for senior citizens or fragile populations that seek to join the EUC masses.

Lacking concern is a completely different thing. 

23 minutes ago, Darrell Wesh said:

I’m not saying that fragile populations or people in poor shape can’t ride an EUC. Most anyone can. But should they?

You are free to feel that I shouldn’t ride. And you keep giving me confirmation to my finding of the opinion to be single-minded.

[Planemo]

1 hour ago, UniGrad said:

Since learning how to do sideways drifting on my 16x

I can only assume that it would take superhero levels of skill to be able to maintain and control a drift on one wheel. Especially when part of maintaining a drift is delicate throttle adjustments. So trying to juggle your body weight, whilst leaning, whilst adding tiny amounts of forward/back input, whilst at the same time not allowing the drift to go fubar must be superhuman. I have yet to see anyone, anywhere do it on an EUC so if you get any vids of this I would be really interested

It's hard enough on 2 wheels tbf

[Darrell Wesh]

2 hours ago, mrelwood said:

You are free to feel that I shouldn’t ride. And you keep giving me confirmation to my finding of the opinion to be single-minded.

I’m not sure why you consider yourself someone I’m addressing? The people I have in mind that would constitute this “fragile” population is 10% of riders. 

[mrelwood]

16 minutes ago, Darrell Wesh said:

I’m not sure why you consider yourself someone I’m addressing? The people I have in mind that would constitute this “fragile” population is 10% of riders. 

You may have skipped a post or a few. I have a disability, can only walk short distances, I’m physically in a lousy  shape, and I heal very slowly. I’m sure I’m in the bottom 0.1% of EUC riders when it comes to physical abilities.

Edited December 16, 2020 by mrelwood

[Darrell Wesh]

4 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

You may have skipped a post or a few. I have a disability, can only walk short distances, I’m physically in a lousy  shape, and I heal very slowly. I’m sure I’m in the bottom 0.1% of EUC riders when it comes to physical abilities.

Interesting. I had only a faint idea about this as you consider yourself an off road rider. Given that you fit the criteria and you know it; even dressed like the Michelin Man i would have suggested in your beginning days to try something else(if you were in the same shape in your starter days as you allege you are now)

 

But regardless, why should it infuriate you that someone is simply being pragmatic and not sugarcoating things by saying you shouldn’t do something so risky for your shape? It’s merely a suggestion, it’s not like a doctor refusing to medically clear you to participate in something. 
 

If you are not in denial of your fragility, and accepting of the inherent risks of euc riding(especially off road riding) then it should come as no shock when people state the obvious about your risk aptitude.
 

[GoGeorgeGo]

Just my 2 cents about helmet wearing.

I find that on nice days the helmet feels restrictive.  I want to catch the fresh air on my whole head.  And at slow speeds (10 mph<) honestly you can walk out of 99% off falls.  I often take my helmet off and just ride slow.

On the flip side, i cant even get over 15 mph without a helmet on.  I get physically tense, knowing im in a dangerous position at that point.  So if i plan to gain any speed at all, the helmet GREATLY improves my experience.  Gives me confidence to ride the machine hard.

It really comes down to how your riding on that day

[Michael Tucker]

2 hours ago, GoGeorgeGo said:

Just my 2 cents about helmet wearing.

I find that on nice days the helmet feels restrictive.  I want to catch the fresh air on my whole head.  And at slow speeds (10 mph<) honestly you can walk out of 99% off falls.  I often take my helmet off and just ride slow.

On the flip side, i cant even get over 15 mph without a helmet on.  I get physically tense, knowing im in a dangerous position at that point.  So if i plan to gain any speed at all, the helmet GREATLY improves my experience.  Gives me confidence to ride the machine hard.

It really comes down to how your riding on that day

This is where EUCs are superior to any other device. I do 35mph for 30 minutes with traffic with my helmet on until I get to the beautiful oak tree lined hills on a single lane road. Then I slow to 12mph and hold my helmet. No rumble of a motor, no windshield, I can just stop to observe the deer or turkeys. I don't even have to look forward. That instant connection to nature is pure bliss!

[mrelwood]

 

7 hours ago, Darrell Wesh said:

i would have suggested in your beginning days to try something else

And it would've been a reasonable suggestion.

7 hours ago, Darrell Wesh said:

But regardless, why should it infuriate you that someone is simply being pragmatic and not sugarcoating things by saying you shouldn’t do something so risky for your shape? It’s merely a suggestion

"Should" or "shouldn't" is not a suggestion. It's an instruction. And it's not your place to instruct which activities someone should or shouldn't do. It's a bit like people saying to you that you shouldn't have started running, it's bad for your knees. And while I know it's been a strong focus for your life for a long time, I'm still confident that EUCs have made a more fundamental change for the quality of my life than running to your's.

7 hours ago, Darrell Wesh said:

If you are not in denial of your fragility, and accepting of the inherent risks of euc riding(especially off road riding) then it should come as no shock when people state the obvious about your risk aptitude.

"Man, that's risky!" Sure, I'd have no problem hearing that, 'cos they'd be right. And it's exactly the choice I keep making before every single ride. Keeping me out of a wheelchair is a darn good motivator though.

[Darrell Wesh]

15 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

Should" or "shouldn't" is not a suggestion. It's an instruction. And it's not your place to instruct which activities someone should or shouldn't do.

I see. Well that’s simply where our perspective on the word usage differs. I never saw my usage of “shouldn’t” as an instruction. Merely an opinion/suggestion. 

Edited December 16, 2020 by Darrell Wesh

[UniGrad]

13 hours ago, Planemo said:

I can only assume that it would take superhero levels of skill to be able to maintain and control a drift on one wheel. Especially when part of maintaining a drift is delicate throttle adjustments. So trying to juggle your body weight, whilst leaning, whilst adding tiny amounts of forward/back input, whilst at the same time not allowing the drift to go fubar must be superhuman. I have yet to see anyone, anywhere do it on an EUC so if you get any vids of this I would be really interested

It's hard enough on 2 wheels tbf

Haha yeah I know what you mean. But I'm not technically power sliding where you would be using high torque to get the tyres spinning in order to lose traction and slide.
But yeah I can imagine what you're saying. Trying to do a real power slide by hard leaning forward to prompt the EUC to deliver enough torque to do a wheel spin and use that to slide. That's gotta be near impossible.
Trying to control that forward lean angle as well as the sideways lean angle while that 1 wheel slides along and you stay balanced upright on top of it 

What I've been doing is more like a bike slide. Like when you use the rear brake to slide. But yeah it still feels like 20x harder than sliding on a bike.

So what I sometimes do (on the EUC) is lean back hard enough to lock up the wheel (on loose gravel) and as soon as the wheel locks up I use the traction loss to go into a sideways slide.
Or what I will do is simply lean sideways very hard with a little twist of the hips and this will cause a sideways loss of traction and the EUC will slide sideways. Kind of like stopping on ice skates where you spray ice.

Here's the video below. Don't get your hopes up too much since the biggest slide I can do at the moment is around 10 feet. I haven't had a ton of practice repeating this since learning how to do it because my 16x mainboard failed soon after that video. Not sure if it's due to all the falls I had while practicing the drifting.
I'm waiting for a new mainboard now. I may try sliding on the Sherman in the meantime but I'm worried about hurting my legs when I fall sideways. That thing is like a big chunk of steel. And when you practice drifting an EUC you're guaranteed to fall a whole bunch of times.

I'm really hoping that with more practice I'll be able to do long reliable slides. It would be awesome to be able to drift around corners on 1 wheel like a rally car. But ohh man is everything is more fun on 1 wheel.
Even just riding casually at walking speed is fun on an EUC, whereas doing that on any other vehicle will put you straight to sleep.

 

Edited December 17, 2020 by UniGrad

[UniGrad]

9 hours ago, GoGeorgeGo said:

Just my 2 cents about helmet wearing.

I find that on nice days the helmet feels restrictive.  I want to catch the fresh air on my whole head.  And at slow speeds (10 mph<) honestly you can walk out of 99% off falls.  I often take my helmet off and just ride slow.

On the flip side, i cant even get over 15 mph without a helmet on.  I get physically tense, knowing im in a dangerous position at that point.  So if i plan to gain any speed at all, the helmet GREATLY improves my experience.  Gives me confidence to ride the machine hard.

It really comes down to how your riding on that day

Exactly Exactly Exact

I feel the same way. I feel that if I take my helmet off below 15 mph, the level of risk is probably still lower than that of jogging in the rain, or simply crossing the road. So when someone says I should still have it on because accidents can still happen, I would say "Oh I see what you mean. You should also wear a helmet each time you cross the road". Because a car could sweep you off your feet and land you on your head. Oh and make sure it's a full face one 😂😂😂😂

But jokes aside I feel the same as you too about going over 15mph. I start to feel very strange with no helmet on. I use a full face one.
And the helmet also gave me the confidence to push my Sherman much harder. When I used to ride it without a helmet I would always be holding back.