Airlines now banning hoverboards on flights

[dmethvin]

17 hours ago, Keith said:

Who the hell carries Potassium Permanganate in their first aid kit these days?

The same kind of person who uses a mercury thermometer! 

Those demos of mercury eating through aluminum are pretty scary though.

 

[Rehab1]

You can not get any clearer than that but it still Sucks!

[Questor]

Just imagine if this whole airplane /battery issue did not exist...  Batteries were safe and could be transported by air.

You could fly with your wheel wherever you wanted and then wheel to your destination, (or the nearest power outlet) and go explore a new city. 

Heck I'd be looking for cheap flights to cities I've never been to just to go check them out!

$59 flight to San Francisco? Sure! Let's go! Couch surfing with other EUC people...

Until then, we have to deal with the stupidity and bureaucracy of regulations...

[The Fat Unicyclist]

11 minutes ago, Questor said:

Just imagine if this whole airplane /battery issue did not exist...  Batteries were safe and could be transported by air.

That would be so awesome...

I have just got back from a wheel-less fortnight in the UK - and would've loved to take my wheel. 

And I work out of 3 different cities (Auckland, Wellington (home) and Christchurch) - I would so have my wheel with me on every trip... If I could fly with it!

[Questor]

19 minutes ago, The Fat Unicyclist said:

That would be so awesome...

I have just got back from a wheel-less fortnight in the UK - and would've loved to take my wheel. 

And I work out of 3 different cities (Auckland, Wellington (home) and Christchurch) - I would so have my wheel with me on every trip... If I could fly with it!

Hey. If you travel the same cities frequently, why don't you just keep a battery in each location and bring your wheel without batteries with you as checked luggage?  

Or... could this lead to a new business where companies or individuals rent you a battery. Could this be the next Uber?

Perhaps I'll start renting Ninebot batteries in L.A for travelers!

Something like RedBox at every airport! 

Q~

[Hunka Hunka Burning Love]

After reading a post by @KingSong69 about him having to abandon his wheel at the airport even though the battery was removed, it got me thinking a bit.  I wonder if the wheel was completely disassembled into two shells, controller board, and wheel motor whether they would have let it through security.  There surely can't be a good reason that people cannot bring EUC parts on a plane with two under 132 wH batteries?   Maybe place the shells, pedal/supports and controller board into check-in luggage and carry aboard the motor only, or if there is room in the check-in luggage put all the parts inside and just carry on the two battery packs.  Or maybe just carry the shell and battery packs onboard with all the other stuff in the check-in.  With the parts all disassembled, I'd challenge any non-EUC rider to identify what it is as it just looks like a bunch of parts for something.

 

[The Fat Unicyclist]

I have even thought about just checking it inside my luggage (sort of a "don't ask, don't tell" policy). I wouldn't try it internationally, but could probably get away with it here in New Zealand. 

I like the renting idea @Questor, but then why wouldn't I rent a whole wheel? Then again, as I am going to the same places, why don't I keep a wheel in each city - perhaps my girlfriends could look after them...

[Questor]

15 minutes ago, The Fat Unicyclist said:

I like the renting idea @Questorperhaps my girlfriends could look after them...

Ahhh. "Girfriends"... 

I see where you're coming from you sly dog you...

I "like"!

Have many girlfriend's with batteries for you. Well played!

 

Thailand. London. New York. Paris.  London. Munich.. Everybody talk about "pop music!"

(That's a song reference for those of you who are too young or don't get it..)

Bravo!

Q~

[Hunka Hunka Burning Love]

M

 

[US69]

12 hours ago, HunkaHunkaBurningLove said:

After reading a post by @KingSong69 about him having to abandon his wheel at the airport even though the battery was removed, it got me thinking a bit.  I wonder if the wheel was completely disassembled into two shells, controller board, and wheel motor whether they would have let it through security.  There surely can't be a good reason that people cannot bring EUC parts on a plane with two under 132 wH batteries?   Maybe place the shells, pedal/supports and controller board into check-in luggage and carry aboard the motor only, or if there is room in the check-in luggage put all the parts inside and just carry on the two battery packs.  Or maybe just carry the shell and battery packs onboard with all the other stuff in the check-in.  With the parts all disassembled, I'd challenge any non-EUC rider to identify what it is as it just looks like a bunch of parts for something.

 

i would not recommend to put the motor WITH batteries into the luggage without telling....because everything gets x-rayed!

otherwise: IF i have been quiet...without batteries...and euc in the luggage...i am sure i would have it now!

the supervisor was just damn stupid!!! has had no clue about this things!

but it is clear...they CAN forbid ...if they want, because the police does only talk about that EUC, Hoverboard is forbidden in general...and not mention the batteries...

its just a roulette if you say nothing...and the wheel then gets outsorted in luggage by x-ray from airport authority!

then you have bad cards :-)

[Rehab1]

This company makes Lithium Ion protective bags and also does custom fabrication.  I plan to contact the company on Monday and find out if they are conducting any Lithium Ion safety testing with the FAA?  http://liposack.com/custom-designs/

[US69]

1 hour ago, Rehab1 said:

This company makes Lithium Ion protective bags and also does custom fabrication.  I plan to contact the company on Monday and find out if they are conducting any Lithium Ion safety testing with the FAA?  http://liposack.com/custom-designs/

do you think that with such a sack, you are allowed to cary more batteries as normally allowed?

that will not happen...until in the regulations something like this is especially mentioned!

for example: as i tried to bring my KS16 from thailand to germany i have an official document from KS thailand, hat the batteries are removed, ande the EUC now is safe to be transported....i also could have brought some toiletpaper...same effect!

 

what i want to say is that third party things/helps/documents do nothing to regulations

[Rehab1]

@KingSong69 Sorry that I was not totally clear about the premise behind my inquiry. Yes no piece of paper indicating your EUC is safe and secure will allow you to carry your wheel onto a commercial aircraft.  But changing rules and regulations is the only solution.

There are companies currently working with the FAA on developing a safer method of transporting Lithium Ion batteries.  In addition to LipoSack,  AmSafe Bridgeport is another company that has developed a fire containment bag for Lipo batteries and are currently conducting tests with FAA independent labs. 

With the Samsung Galaxy 7s now catching fire it is only a matter of time before cell phones and laptops are banned by airlines. So it is prudent that technology be developed immediately to allow for safe transportation of products utilizing these batteries. 

There are also major discussions underway to implement tighter regulations of the entire lithium battery industry as recently reported by International Air Transport Association (IATA) in this recent video. The IATA underscores the need to crack down on non-compliant manufacturers and shippers of lithium batteries.  http://www.prba.org/wp-content/uploads/TIACA-GSF-IATA-PRBA-Final-version-1.pdf

Hopefully with increased R&A on safer methods of transporting Lipo batteries that meet all of the airline standards combined with stricter rules and regulations of the Lipo industry we may soon see some day light at the end of this annoying tunnel and be allowed to transport our EUCs on aircraft just like we check in our baggage. 

 

 

 

[tjcooper]

@dmethvin

Thanks for statements about devices with less than 132Watt-hour of battery being allowed on passenger airlines.  Do you have a reference to this "exception"?   Everyone else in this thread says "no batteries----no how" in the passenger plane.   If a device less than 132 W-hr is allowed, then my MoHoo 14" EUC would qualify......and would make me a happy camper.   Just trying to find the proper "legal" documentation so that I could try to take a unit with me.    Would also like a reference to the statement that two LiPo batteries can come on-board if carried directly by the passenger.  That also opens up a whole bunch of possibilities.

I have done RC airplanes and gliders for 20+ years now.  I have had at least 5 LiPoly batteries go to "vent and flames" while I was handling them (oen in my pocket while I was flying my DLG).  But all of those instances are the polyethylene food packaging LiPo batteries.  Never had the metal encased LiPo (like 18650) do anything but "vent".  Never any flames.....but I am sure it is possible.   All of the EUC batteries that I have seen are 18650 types.   So I think their safety record is much much better than Polyethlene packaging types.

Does anyone have images of the 18650 units going to "vent and FLAME"?  There is tremendous heat but the vents inside the battery normally release the pressure in a controlled way to stop any explosion from happening (being driven over by a Sherman Tank does not count).

Much thanks for videos to "first aid kits" being flame systems......really blew me away.   Since Mercury is now outlawed in human use thermometers, I don't think the aircraft skin is in any danger from that.....but interesting anyway.

    tjcooper

[esaj]

15 minutes ago, tjcooper said:

Does anyone have images of the 18650 units going to "vent and FLAME"?  There is tremendous heat but the vents inside the battery normally release the pressure in a controlled way to stop any explosion from happening (being driven over by a Sherman Tank does not count).

Of course they're overcharging it on purpose... But yeah, 18650 will vent WITH flame (or even explode) in "right conditions".

 

[US69]

@tjcooper

your Mohoo would qualify...if it would not be a EUC!

yes, there is a 132wh rule, but:

90% of all airlines have forbidden EUC's and Hoberboards now in general! No matter of batterie size or even than when batterie has been taken out!

[Jason McNeil]

I've had a couple Customers purchase the 14B with the intention to take it aboard commercial flights, because, 1) it has a 148Wh battery pack, 2) the pack is designed to be swapped out. This later point is an important consideration for getting dispensation to the generalized 'No Hoverboard' rule. 

One Customer was able to take his 14B to Brazil after getting explicit consent that it would be permitted about the plane, another one has made about half-a-dozen flights so far with it. The most important thing, is getting that consent from the Airline before trying to bring it on board.

[Jason McNeil]

On 9/17/2016 at 11:26 AM, Rehab1 said:

This company makes Lithium Ion protective bags and also does custom fabrication.  I plan to contact the company on Monday and find out if they are conducting any Lithium Ion safety testing with the FAA?  http://liposack.com/custom-designs/

I made a couple inquiries to LipoSack Germany, wanted to put in a volume order & provide as 'standard equipment' with the 14Bs, the guys couldn't be bothered to reply to [multiple] emails 

[litewave]

3 hours ago, Jason McNeil said:

I made a couple inquiries to LipoSack Germany, wanted to put in a volume order & provide as 'standard equipment' with the 14Bs, the guys couldn't be bothered to reply to [multiple] emails 

 

The "About" page on their website says they are a SoCal company. Their company is also registered as a business entity based in San Diego, California. They do have a distributor in Germany: Effektmodell, but if you are located in Florida, it seems the West Coast would be a bit closer and perhaps easier to work with?

[Jason McNeil]

2 hours ago, litewave said:

he "About" page on their website says they are a SoCal company.

Sent them a message, it looks like the same material as used in this test. 

 

[tjcooper]

@esja,

great video of the 18650 venting and going to flames......never seen anything like that in rc airplanes.....actually I have never seen anyone put 40 AMPEREs through a 2P configuration before.....that is 20 amps per module.....I am surprised that the wireing did not melt first.   I have tested a number of the old 18650 at at 10C charging conditions (that is 10 times more than the law allows you to charge a properly designated battery).  The batteries got hot and vented, but never any flame.   So my 6 amps could do the vent easily after 2 hours of charge, but even after 10 hours in a barbeque pit they would not go to flames.

@Jason,

I am assuming that 14B is a Hover-board?  I think I will contact Southwest Airlines that does all the short hop flights between SFO and LA and ask them if I show them that I have pulled the battery out (the MoHoo is a one screw and two connector removal) if they would permit it to go in cargo hold.    If that works, then the next test would be if dmethvin's comment about taking two LiPo in the passenger compartment would allow me to take the batteries with me in my overhead luggage.

I see from everyone's comments that it is up to individual airlines whether they would take an EUC without batteries.   That would be a very bad "hit and miss" probability if you wanted to take one on vacation with you.  If would be really good if some airlines would have a policy of EUC or Hover-board documented to have no batteries that would transport as luggage.   Of course that would only last as long as it takes some Hollywood film producer to make an ISIS terrorist attack where the suicide squad all has vents of 18650 batteries from old Hover-boards wired up to explode if they every get caught.  LOL.

    tjcooper

 

 

[US69]

16 hours ago, Jason McNeil said:

I've had a couple Customers purchase the 14B with the intention to take it aboard commercial flights, because, 1) it has a 148Wh battery pack, 2) the pack is designed to be swapped out. This later point is an important consideration for getting dispensation to the generalized 'No Hoverboard' rule. 

One Customer was able to take his 14B to Brazil after getting explicit consent that it would be permitted about the plane, another one has made about half-a-dozen flights so far with it. The most important thing, is getting that consent from the Airline before trying to bring it on board.

@Jason McNeil

Thats a good advice....but i want to give you some further experience of what happend to me:

is asked 4! "check in supervisors" from emirates, which are the boss of what gets on airplane or not!

they were in Dubai, Germany-Duesseldorf, England-London! All from emirates!

i explained that i want to cary the Euc in luggage or handluggage, whatever, and that the batterie will be taken away/out and that this will be documented by photos AND letter of Ks company!

all of those 4 say: yes, sir, no problem, with no batterie, you can bring it in! why not?!

then i bought the Ks16 in Thailand....Ks thailand put out the batterie, documented the heck on it! on the way back the bangkok emirates Supervisor AND also the "general airport authority manager" give me a "absolute no go" for the Euc!!! quoted: "in general forbidden" "dangerous" "no chance"!

I was lucky KS Thailand picked it up, that it was not lost!

so if you go that way that Jason mentioned....be sure to get a AT LEAST a "written" allowance...if you will not loose your EUC!!!

4 supervisors would have let me on board, but for example in bangkok...no chance...i would even say that a written allowance would not have helped me on that day in Bangkok....The only chance would have been doing it in the luggage and hope that xray did not sort it out!

[tjcooper]

@KingSong69,

your problem in Thailand gave me a great idea.  Straight out of the movie "Transformers" we make an EUC that can be de-constructed into a wheel chair.  The extra wheel would be a "spare" for the EUC if you ever got a flat.  All the electronics and controller go into a bag just the same way that the electric wheel chair has.   And you show the supervisor at the airport that the battery compartment is empty.   Do you think they could stand the public outburst if they denied a wheelchair person access on a passenger plane?    Sounds like a whole new marketing program.  "EUC turns wheely-chair".   Now if we can only find a way to make 18650 cells look like insulin modules used for diabetes people......then everything would fly.  LOL.

    tjcooper

[US69]

4 hours ago, tjcooper said:

@KingSong69,

your problem in Thailand gave me a great idea.  Straight out of the movie "Transformers" we make an EUC that can be de-constructed into a wheel chair.  The extra wheel would be a "spare" for the EUC if you ever got a flat.  All the electronics and controller go into a bag just the same way that the electric wheel chair has.   And you show the supervisor at the airport that the battery compartment is empty.   Do you think they could stand the public outburst if they denied a wheelchair person access on a passenger plane?    Sounds like a whole new marketing program.  "EUC turns wheely-chair".   Now if we can only find a way to make 18650 cells look like insulin modules used for diabetes people......then everything would fly.  LOL.

    tjcooper

You might not believe it, but even this would not work out that easy...powerchairs have to go in the freight department, also and are not allowed as "Carry-On"

Even (collapsible) electric wheelchairs over 300Watthours are banned if they are from Lithium Ionen...See example here from "United" for Powerchairs:

 

"Lithium ion battery: Lithium ion batteries are classified independently of other battery types. Lithium batteries may overheat and ignite in certain conditions and, once ignited, may be difficult to extinguish. Lithium batteries are considered a hazardous material for which the following restrictions apply:

• There must be at least one effective means designed into the wheelchair or mobility aid in order to prevent accidental activation or possible short-circuiting
• If you have a collapsible mobility device, the battery must be removed and cannot exceed 300 watt hours.
• If you have a non-collapsible device, Federal Regulations allow for one large lithium ion battery to be transported installed in the device and up to two spare batteries to be transported in carry-on baggage. There is no watt hour limit for the battery installed in the device. If you have one spare battery, it must not exceed 300 watt hours. If you have two spare batteries, they must not exceed 160 watt hours each."

 

Or this here another Quote from a wheelchair site:

 

"When it comes to traveling with lithium batteries they must be handled properly. Lithium batteries for mobility scooters must not exceed 300 amp hours between all batteries in the device. Most mobility devices have two or 24 volts. Some have three or 36 volts and even four at 48 volts. Lithium batteries must be in their own protective cases, with the battery pack or wire harness disconnected from the mobility device. Figure 2 demonstrates a lithium battery pack being removed from a travel mobility scooter.

 

 

What this all boils down to is yes you can travel with any sized mobility scooter or power wheelchair as long as the batteries in the mobility device are compliant. The FAA has regulations on specific types of batteries that are allowed on an airbus within the United States. If the batteries are lead acid and non-spillable all battery sizes are allowed to be stowed on the aircraft. Lithium batteries are the biggest issue. Per the FAA any lithium battery for mobility purposes larger than 300 amps is not in compliance. If your mobility scooter or power wheelchair contains lithium ion batteries, you may want to consider buying a set of non-spillable lead acid batteries as a backup just in case."

[Rehab1]

On September 19, 2016 at 10:06 AM, Jason McNeil said:

I made a couple inquiries to LipoSack Germany, wanted to put in a volume order & provide as 'standard equipment' with the 14Bs, the guys couldn't be bothered to reply to [multiple] emails 

Below is the reply I received from Mark Wood of LipoSack on Sept, 17th. I don't believe they are interested in producing a containment bag for batteries beyond 1600 MaH. If you look at his demonstration video even though the fire is contained within the bag the smoke and fumes emitted are ominous on their own!

@Jason McNeil

Be Safe today and tomorrow!

_____________________________________

Hi, Daniel!

No, we haven't tried to go beyond what we have accomplished. 84000mah is just too far beyond our design capabilities and the containments would have to be huge. Have you overcharged one of those batteries to the point of ignition yet? You'll see what I mean.

Mark Wood
WoodWorks Products LLC
www.LipoSack.com
858-761-2578