An advocacy for heavy wheels

[UniGrad]

11 minutes ago, Bridgeboy said:

Well the only times I've felt not in control on a EUC is when I'm on a loose substrate. I'm scared to death to try to turn at all unless I'm on something solid. I feel like the wheel could just slip out from under me when I'm on something loose. Every time I've tried to ride through loose sand I end up falling or bailing. I've never attempted, nor will I ever intentionally attempt to ride through loose sand at any appreciable speed.

It massively depends on the tyre. With most tyres I know what you mean. But with the large wide knobby treaded tyre of the sherman it's like night and day next to my 16x. I don't know if you saw the earlier post but I mentioned how I don't feel comfortable anywhere above around 20 km/h (12 mph) on sand with my KS16x (road tyre).

But with my Sherman (knobby tyre) I can get to as high as 60 km/h (38 mph) on the sand and still feel like I could go quite a bit faster without worrying about stability (but I don't dare to). That's really crazy because any faster would be approaching top speed on the Sherman. On a surface that most wheels can barely ride on above jogging speed.

25 minutes ago, Bridgeboy said:

I've mentioned this before in other threads, but the only time I wiped out at high speed was when I flew into a grass field that I had ridden through a dozen times before, but this time it was flooded just under the grass line and was not visually apparent, my wheel slid out from under me and I went down. Apparently it was due to an underground broken irrigation pipe. I slid a long way and eventually stopped. Because the grass and ground was soft (and wet), and I was fully geared up,  I was not hurt...just wet  ...I got lucky...Lesson learned...

Wet grass is just like loose sand...it does not provide a stable surface for the single point of contact to grab onto...

Wet grass is the absolute worst. Even dry grass is not at all favorable for high speed. And it can hide dangerous contours in your path of travel. Big invisible dips and such.
Even the Sherman feels very unstable on dry grass. I can ride on grass fast only if I enter the grass with the speed. And then I quickly slow down. But to accelerate to a high speed on grass is super sketchy. Since you have to lean forward and you can't see the dips and bumps hidden in the grass. So it's real easy to be thrown off the front.

But flooded grass is literally like ice. Oddly enough just today I got surprised by some flooded grass that was due to some hidden irrigation. Luckily I was only going like 12 km/h (8 mph) when I hit the wet section but even so I still almost lost it. Then I just slowly made my way to some dry grass.

[mrelwood]

First of all, @UniGrad, you might want to check how the multiple quote option works. Hit the + button for each post you want to quote, so you can get them all in the same reply.

On 12/8/2020 at 1:07 AM, UniGrad said:

I'd be willing to bet at least $1000 that you get more adrenalin going 40mph with the bigger wheel.

If more stability to support faster speeds is the key for adrenaline, shouldn’t a motorcycle offer more of both?

On 12/8/2020 at 1:47 AM, UniGrad said:

The Sherman has a tyre that's 4 inches larger.

2” to be more precise. And the rim is the same size as what’s on the MSX/MSP/RS, and the difference in diameter to the stock GW tire is probably less than 0.5”.

I had a clone of the Sherman tire on my MSX for a better part of the year. I know (and really like) how the tire rides.

 Still, I believe the difference in diameter between the Sherman and the 16X to be the main factor for differences in riding characteristics, especially on sand. I do think the weight distribution makes a difference as well. Comparing the 16X to a Nikola, both have the same tire and identical weight, yet Nikola feels more stable. 16X has the weight fit into a smaller volume, especially front to back, so my guess is that the longer shell of the Nikola adds inertia that slows down turning sideways.

 

On 12/8/2020 at 4:21 AM, UniGrad said:

Put simply, if you double the battery size you get more than double the range.

This is quite a bit more complicated than that. First of all, GW stops at 3.3V/cell, doesn’t Sherman go down to 3.15V? Also, the Wh of any EUC is calculated from the official battery specs, which usually go down to 2.5V. So all EUCs have drastically less Wh available for riding than what it says on the tin.

 Whenever I have added battery cells into my wheels, I have never gotten quite the increase in range I would’ve if the calculation was linear.

 Your comment about cells having more capacity with a lower output current is still valid though. But it doesn’t seem to be enough to overcome the other factors.

EUC replacing a bus/train/car is of course extremely different to each individual. I barely ever ride my car anymore, and I’d visit a shop 30km away with the EUC instead if at all possible, even in the winter. But if I had to show up at work every day in a suit in the summer, even I might choose differently.

 But it’s is very common to have people ask for a recommendation to upgrade one’s S2, hoping for just 20% more range in the same tiny and light package. Luckily one of them came to a local meet to get rid of his presumptions of larger wheels being clumsy and difficult to ride. His commute was less than 10 miles, in total, subway included! He had just grown so used to riding to subway and never even considered EUCing the whole commute.

 Until we empty a few charges on a larger wheel, we can’t even imagine how different the ride is, and what kinds of possibilities it opens up. And it takes months to see how it ends up integrating to one’s life. 14” newbies will never have the slightest of clues why I ride 50km trips for fun, several times a week, around the year.

[Finn Bjerke]

Interesting topic: Sorry to be the devils advocat here, but why "heavy" ?  Why not "with suspension, also for heavy people" ? and add: "Big tire is better"  Now things get nice and positive:  If you go EUC a lot you might loose weight youssef while having fun and transporting you in a safe and fun way.  No sarcasm here friends. Bike is no longer the only alternative to cars, trams etc. EUC to me is the future, but for ppl above 100 kg moving from car to PEV is a better choice than moving from car to Bicycle.  120 Kilo? Im not so sure.  16" wheels are inferior to 18" x 3" wheels I find. That is for grown ups.  Can you ride EUCs in the snow? yes you can. Be carefull. 

If you are heavy weight the big tire suspension wheel will be nicer to you, no knee problems, no lower back problems. Overall less fatigue. Hey you might even get suspension on your bicycle sadle while your at it - and add a saddle to your PEV.  Urban problems today is way too many cars, diesel fumes and what have you. For bumpy roads (roads destroyed by heavy cars?) The big tire  suspension wheel is safer, much safer.  It could be compared to carving skis actually. You have more grip and travelling becomes less demanding. So this is a safe and fun way to transport you and you might even loose some of the extra kilos.  The EUC culture have a small group of speedfreaks who just wants "bigger and faster"... I want safer and faster, thats what the suspension wheels offer, but the product so far is a little immature.  Changing tire for winter tire is a pest on Inmotion V11, the Kingsong s18 have a weird tire size.   The politicians should learn this: PEVs might solve a lot of problems, while ppl are actually having fun, is it 100% safe always? No: Life itself is full of riscs. PEVs are safer and better now than 4 years ago. So we need better laws maybe a sort of drivers license for PEVs for grown ups.

regarding Xmas: Dont drink and drive, here is my song about just that:  Its of little EUC relevance  just for fun.  Dont be an animal dont drink and drive is the message I guess.  

 

Edited December 13, 2020 by Finn Bjerke

[UniGrad]

2 hours ago, mrelwood said:

First of all, @UniGrad, you might want to check how the multiple quote option works. Hit the + button for each post you want to quote, so you can get them all in the same reply.

Thanks I'll check it out after this.

2 hours ago, mrelwood said:

If more stability to support faster speeds is the key for adrenaline, shouldn’t a motorcycle offer more of both?

I have ridden motorcycles all my life and have absolutely loved it. Started on a 50cc scooter and incrementally went up to a 1000cc sports bike. And yeah they're totally insane rocketships.
But there's just something about riding an EUC that's so different. I would concede that my super bike gave me more raw adrenalin than my Sherman does.
But the experience is totally different.
For starters, the EUC is so light that the vast majority of the weight is coming from the rider. And it's so small it's almost not there.
There's something about this. Almost like there's no vehicle and it's just you flying. Or perhaps you feel more like you've become one with the machine...

On that note, becoming one with the machine. The fact that there are no controls required to drive an EUC makes a HUGE difference to the experience. On motorcycles you're constantly pressing pedals, pulling levers, twisting throttles, turning handle bars. It's much more akin to operating from a computer.....if you know what I mean. Like operating from the interface of a control panel.

Now keeping that in mind, think about this. You see one of the things that makes motorcycles SOOOOOO much more fun than driving a car, is the fact that the vehicle is light enough and designed such that your body weight can throw the vehicle around. Think about driving a car. If you throw your body around in a car nothing happens. It's like YOU the driver, are totally irrelevant to the experience beyond handling the control interface. I.e. pedals, steering wheel, gears ect.

But with a motorcycle you are now more one with the machine. Now your body weight matters. YOU the driver, matter beyond operating the lame control interface. When you throw your body left and right, the vehicle goes left and right in spectacular fashion. It's awesome. An amazing feeling. You're almost flying free like a bird. Makes cars seem super lame to drive. Cars are like roller coaster rides. Kind of fun but not that great.

And then you have the EUC. For starters you've completely eliminated the ENTIRE control panel. Nothing at all. Not a single button to press, or lever to pull. Nothing. Just you the driver flying 100% free like a bird. So free that you're not even holding onto anything for balance/stability. Like with a bike you're holding onto the handle bars. But with an EUC you have both your arms completely free and this alone feels so amazing.

And this segways on to my final point. The fact that on an EUC you don't hold any handle bars, and you simply lean back and forth to brake and accelerate, adds an entire new dimension to the riding experience. Remember how the motorcycle is more fun than the car largely because it allows you to control the vehicle by throwing your body left and right. Thereby adding a new dimension to the experience. Well, an EUC then doubles up on that by giving you 2 new dimensions. Left/right and forward/backward.

And the thing is.......... accelerating on an EUC is pure ecstasy. Leaning forward like that and taking off literally makes you feel like you've got rocket boots on. And braking is pretty damn awesome too.

If you ask me, and this is just my opinion, the EUC makes motorcycles seem lame in the same way that motorcycles make cars seem lame. It makes sense to me since they add an entire new riding dimension just as the motorcycle adds 1 new dimension over the car.
Now I look at motorcycles like giant cumbersome machines.

 

 

[UniGrad]

3 hours ago, Finn Bjerke said:

The EUC culture have a small group of speedfreaks who just wants "bigger and faster"... I want safer and faster, thats what the suspension wheels offer, but the product so far is a little immature.

I fully agree about the safety thing.

The way that I ride though I have not found the need for suspension. Yes it would add safety but not much.
Whenever I ride fast I have my knees very bent and relaxed 100% of the time. And I am very careful to analyze the surface ahead of me. And even when I do hit a large bump at high speed, my knees are so bent that it doesn't cause a huge issue. The biggest issue is the wheel bouncing after getting air. Suspension would get rid of that but the bouncing hasn't really bothered me so much on the Sherman because it just stays straight. It's an amazingly stable EUC and this brings a lot of safety with it.

I do love riding super fast, it's an incredible feeling, but I don't do it all the time. For example when I go for a long ride to use up that massive 3200Wh battery, I will do bursts of speed here and there along my journey, but I will also do a lot of slow relaxed riding. And I also enjoy that very much. And I also very much enjoy medium speed riding. But the thing is that whenever I'm going at any speed above running speed, I have my knees fairly bent. This has been my safety net. The mindset. Knowing when you must bend your knees and when you can relax. Like when you want to straighten out your legs for a bit to rest your muscles, slow right down first. Then speed up when you're ready to go.

Upon thinking about it now, perhaps if I got a suspension wheel it would take away from my safe riding philosophy by introducing a lazy riding mindset. A mindset that tends more towards saying that it's okay to be less carefeul, analyze less stringently, ride faster on bad surfaces, worry less about bent knees.

Perhaps this change in mindset would make it an overall less safe experience. I'm just saying perhaps. Interested to hear others' opinions on this.

There's no doubt there would be some perceptible change in mindset. I think that's basic psychology. I think.
But the question would be, does this outweigh the good things that suspension brings to the table?

Edited December 13, 2020 by UniGrad

[FinRider]

10 hours ago, mrelwood said:

EUC replacing a bus/train/car is of course extremely different to each individual. I barely ever ride my car anymore, and I’d visit a shop 30km away with the EUC instead if at all possible, even in the winter. But if I had to show up at work every day in a suit in the summer, even I might choose differently

I started commuting to the office with my old KS16b/c and swapped it for my KS-S18. I have to wear a suit in the office but solved the ”problem” by leaving a couple of suits, shirts and tie in the office... simple and quick to change.

6 hours ago, UniGrad said:

Now keeping that in mind, think about this. You see one of the things that makes motorcycles SOOOOOO much more fun than driving a car, is the fact that the vehicle is light enough and designed such that your body weight can throw the vehicle around. Think about driving a car. If you throw your body around in a car nothing happens. It's like YOU the driver, are totally irrelevant to the experience beyond handling the control interface. I.e. pedals, steering wheel, gears ect.

Not to ruin your point but driving a car fast can be as much fun as riding a bike. I have done plenty of both, started back in the days with a 600 Fizzer, 900 cbr and 1200 v-max... then i got into muscle cars and tuned my mustang to 800+ HP... going down the drag strip or trying to keep a beast like that on the track while chasing porches is sooo much fun as well.

6 hours ago, UniGrad said:

Upon thinking about it now, perhaps if I got a suspension wheel it would take away from my safe riding philosophy by introducing a lazy riding mindset. A mindset that tends more towards saying that it's okay to be less carefeul, analyze less stringently, ride faster on bad surfaces, worry less about bent knees.

Yup. Going from non-suspended to suspended did change my riding posture. I really have to drill this into my brain when i take the old reliable ks16b/c out for a spin... remember to bend your knees... lol.

[mrelwood]

 

8 hours ago, UniGrad said:

I would concede that my super bike gave me more raw adrenalin than my Sherman does.
But the experience is totally different.
For starters, the EUC is so light that the vast majority of the weight is coming from the rider. And it's so small it's almost not there.
There's something about this.

...

I agree with everything you said, and I feel exactly the same! Which brings us to the point, which was that increasing the weight and size of the EUC doesn’t necessarily increase the fun factor.

8 hours ago, UniGrad said:

Upon thinking about it now, perhaps if I got a suspension wheel it would take away from my safe riding philosophy by introducing a lazy riding mindset. A mindset that tends more towards saying that it's okay to be less carefeul, analyze less stringently, ride faster on bad surfaces, worry less about bent knees.

This has been a worthy point, for new riders as well. I had an epiphany about this a week after getting my V11: I was concentrating MUCH more in my surroundings, traffic, bicyclists, pedestrians, dogs, wild animals, nature, landscapes, cool cars, beautiful women, etc. All that exactly because I no longer had to watch the ground all the time.

 My riding speeds have increased quite a bit in places where others are not around. And a few of the surprises I’ve had that would’ve grounded me from the MSX indeed might not have even happened if I hadn’t gotten the V11. But I’m still absolutely confident that all in all I’m a much safer part of traffic and community with the V11.

[UniGrad]

2 hours ago, FinRider said:

Not to ruin your point but driving a car fast can be as much fun as riding a bike. I have done plenty of both, started back in the days with a 600 Fizzer, 900 cbr and 1200 v-max... then i got into muscle cars and tuned my mustang to 800+ HP... going down the drag strip or trying to keep a beast like that on the track while chasing porches is sooo much fun as well.

Yeah I've never driven such a fast car as that. Not even close. I bet it's a lot of fun. Maybe that kind of power would tip the fun factor scales.
What I really loved to do in the past was drifting cars. That was a hoot.

I guess it comes down to personal preference. But the tangible fact that a motorcycle introduces a new dimension to the driving experience is there. That dimension being the freedom of rotation about 1 axis (i.e. leaning body left and right with the vehicle). With that extra freedom comes a whole lot of fun. Since the car gives you zero freedom of rotation it makes a huge difference in the relative experience. Does that make sense?
Like in going from zero to 1 is a much bigger difference than going from 10 to 11. Hopefully someone understands what I mean there.
It's like the motorcycle introduces a whole new world of driving that didn't exist in the car. The new dimension. The dimension of rotation.
And the EUC then goes 2x on that. Then next step up would practically be a jet pack. Ohhh man. Now I'm waiting for that one to come out

[UniGrad]

46 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

I agree with everything you said, and I feel exactly the same! Which brings us to the point, which was that increasing the weight and size of the EUC doesn’t necessarily increase the fun factor.

Yes you are totally correct. And the point of adding weight is not to add to the fun. The weight is simply a necessity for being able to go really fast and remain stable. I think the biggest factor is that a heavy EUC lowers the centre of mass of the vehicle+rider system. This is one of the areas where the weight alone is an advantage.

If you could have a super light or even a weightless EUC that was as fast and stable as a heavy one, that would be the ideal situation.
But due to the physics of it, that's not possible. So we will always need to accept a certain level of weight on our EUC for stability. And at the moment we also have to accept that heavy weight for range and power. And from my own experience, I really feel like I need an EUC about the weight of the Sherman for really good high speed stability and safety.

So the way I see it, even if battery tech and materials tech gets 1000x better. I will still be riding a 35kg EUC for long fast journeys.

Probably an indestructible one with 100000 miles of range 

  

46 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

This has been a worthy point, for new riders as well. I had an epiphany about this a week after getting my V11: I was concentrating MUCH more in my surroundings, traffic, bicyclists, pedestrians, dogs, wild animals, nature, landscapes, cool cars, beautiful women, etc. All that exactly because I no longer had to watch the ground all the time.

Sounds like the suspension really does its job. I gotta get one one day. I guess I'll really have to try and hold on to my safe riding philosophy as much as humanly possible once I get suspension.
Now that I think about it, since I will always want to have a 35kg EUC for low centre of mass, as batteries get lighter, suspension would be the next logical addition. Rather than just adding dead weight to an EUC. It's an inevitable upgrade I think.

 

Edited December 13, 2020 by UniGrad

[Scottie888]

30 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

 

...I had an epiphany about this a week after getting my V11: I was concentrating MUCH more in my surroundings, traffic, bicyclists, pedestrians, dogs, wild animals, nature, landscapes, cool cars, beautiful women, etc. All that exactly because I no longer had to watch the ground all the time.

 My riding speeds have increased quite a bit in places where others are not around. And a few of the surprises I’ve had that would’ve grounded me from the MSX indeed might not have even happened if I hadn’t gotten the V11. But I’m still absolutely confident that all in all I’m a much safer part of traffic and community with the V11.

Bingo! My infamous 1st batch S18 (despite of all its faults) has upgraded my riding to the next level. Just much as I enjoy the Mten3 at slow speeds & doing tricks, I similar enjoy pushing the S18 as far as I can doing gnarly technical offroad trails & loving it. Wheeling is so much more fun once I don't concentrate as much on surface imperfections.

Best of all, my body doesn't have to take as much punishment. The young may not appreciate that but for old(er) geezers like me who's had knee surgery, it's huge.

[UniGrad]

18 minutes ago, Scottie888 said:

Bingo! My infamous 1st batch S18 (despite of all its faults) has upgraded my riding to the next level. Just much as I enjoy the Mten3 at slow speeds & doing tricks, I similar enjoy pushing the S18 as far as I can doing gnarly technical offroad trails & loving it. Wheeling is so much more fun once I don't concentrate as much on surface imperfections.

Best of all, my body doesn't have to take as much punishment. The young may not appreciate that but for old(er) geezers like me who's had knee surgery, it's huge.

Awesome! Yeah I'm starting to hear that the suspensions really work well on a wheel.
I mentioned it just before but, since I will always want a fairly heavy wheel for going fast, I think suspension would be an inevitable upgrade for me in the future as batteries become lighter. I'm not gonna want dead weight on my EUC.

But as for now, I need all the range that's available.
On the Sherman I can eat up the miles so effortlessly that I find myself doing 100km and thinking "my battery is nearly dead already?" Those couple of hours just fly by when you're having that much fun. So I can't really afford suspension at the moment in terms of what I want to be able to do.

To be honest I want a 400km wheel. Not that I'd ever be able to use all that range. But I want some extra range so that I can just use around 60% of the battery rather than having to deplete till empty. Who knows maybe I would use that 400km range. Exploring places is awesome.

But once I've got that much range I don't see the need for having any more. And suspension would become inevitable.

Edited December 13, 2020 by UniGrad

[meepmeepmayer]

The topic below has been started going on from this discussion. Just so you are aware:

[Bumblebees]

Big heavy wheels are okay for long distance runs.  I prefer medium size to light weight wheels that can be carried up and down stairs without too much hassle and good enough for short errands around town.

 

14 hours ago, Finn Bjerke said:

regarding Xmas: Dont drink and drive, here is my song about just that:  Its of little EUC relevance  just for fun.  Dont be an animal dont drink and drive is the message I guess.  

 

This video is kind of strange.  

[FinRider]

The late generation wheels all seem to add suspension, bigger batteries, etc. All of these do indeed add weight to the EUC. With all these advancements we tend to increase the speed at which we travel. Please be cautious though, because with the increased speed + the increased weight of the EUC, it can quickly becomes a (lethal?) projectile if you happen to fall off it at high speed. There is a huge difference of a 30kg EUC bouncing down the road compared to a 15 kg one... Stay safe out there!

[Nostris]

I guess that so much of this, really interesting, discussion rests on where and how we live, and what we want an euc for. I appreciate exactly what is being said about the stability and speed of a 35kg wheel. And if you live near a town or in a city, sure as transport, fine. As a speed machine for adrenaline fun...also fine. For myself, I would find lugging a 35 kg wheel about a total PITA. I’m not interested in dressing up like a storm trooper and riding at stupid km/h. If I want to go fast I have my Lotus Evora 430 or my Ducati. My wheels I love to use as very quick shoes....speedy feet.. They are , for my use, fantastic for moving about in town, sightseeing etc. But, because of where I live, I have to take it in the car and then use it at my destination. Fortunately p, there does seem to be a wheel for everyone, but about 25kgs would be absolutely my maximum weight limit. 

[UniGrad]

4 hours ago, Nostris said:

For myself, I would find lugging a 35 kg wheel about a total PITA

That would depend on what you mean by "lugging". If you mean lifting it and carrying it around the yeah. But otherwise, using the trolley handle to lug it around is like carrying a feather. For me I can use the Sherman for anything I need including shopping and it's extremely practical for that. Not even close to being a PITA.

But......I still tend to use my 16x for short trips like that. Only because it's more fun in its own way. It's so nimble and agile.
But......if I was forced to make a choice and pick only one wheel. It would be the Sherman hands down because that thing can do everything I need. And the Sherman trolley handle is more convenient for me because my full face helmet fits over it making it super easy to carry the helmet+EUC together via the trolley handle. Can't do this with my 16x because the handle is too wide.

Edited December 16, 2020 by UniGrad