An advocacy for heavy wheels

[Bob Eisenman]

@Bridgeboymaybe the phrase 'two types of riders'  is a carryover from motorcycling.

Lots of the euc fall discussions began with lower powered machines. 

Here's one Google search link

https://www.3euc.com/gear/#:~:text=There are two types of,wish they had suited up.

Good luck !

[Bridgeboy]

1 minute ago, Bob Eisenman said:

@Bridgeboymaybe the phrase 'two types of riders'  is a carryover from motorcycling.

Lots of the euc fall discussions began with lower powered machines. 

Here's one Google search link

https://www.3euc.com/gear/#:~:text=There are two types of,wish they had suited up.

Good luck !

 

Bob, I have "smartly suited up" since I started riding EUCs because I respect the potential for bodily injury. And I have a family that depends upon me remaining healthy.

That said, I have over 1,000 Miles riding now in 2020 since discovering EUCs and at riding close to the limits and my only wreck, at speed, was when I flew into a grass field that I had ridden through a dozen times before, but this time it was flooded just under the grass line and was not visually apparent, my wheel slid out from under me and I went down. Apparently it was due to an underground broken irrigation pipe. I slid a long way and eventually stopped. Because the grass and ground was soft (and wet), and I was fully geared up,  I was not hurt...just wet  ...I got lucky...Lesson learned...

Yes, anything unexpected can happen. But that's true with literally everything in life.

I've found EUCs to be one of the safest potentially dangerous things I've ever discovered in my life (I was born prior to 1970)...

Riding around during the COVID-19 pandemic helps a lot too...roads are mostly empty. More cars and vehicles on roads would be the highest potential for injury or death...just like it is with motorcycles...

[.....]

9 minutes ago, Bridgeboy said:

That said, I have over 1,000 Miles riding now in 2020 since discovering EUCs and at riding close to the limits and my only wreck, at speed, was when I flew into a grass field that I had ridden through a dozen times before, but this time it was flooded just under the grass line and was not visually apparent, my wheel slid out from under me and I went down. Apparently it was due to an underground broken irrigation pipe. I slid a long way and eventually stopped. Because the grass and ground was soft (and wet), and I was fully geared up,  I was not hurt...just wet  ...I got lucky...Lesson learned...

This just sounds INCREDIBLY FUN to me. Were you tempted to try again but maybe faster?      Sounds similar to when you cross a railroad rail hidden in wet grass at angle on a moto. One second ridding in the wind, the next... literally flying? Happens so fast it's just pure fun. What is 'at speed' considered? Is this anything faster than you can run out of? Total derail, but hell, why not?

Edited December 6, 2020 by ShanesPlanet

[Bob Eisenman]

2 hours ago, Bridgeboy said:

I have a family that depends upon me remaining healthy.

I read that.😉

[Bob Eisenman]

3 hours ago, Bridgeboy said:

(I was born prior to 1970)

I was born prior to 1960.....my legs sort of don't work nimbly or strongly as when I was younger. Here is a picture from the 1990s. Rise early....drive 3 hr to New Hampshire...climb its highest mountain by 1:30 pm....down climb (hardest part).....drive home....arrive back by 10pm.....sleep in bed at home....great ... exhausting FUN..

No kids...fewer responsibilities than yourself....go for it man....enjoy.

 

[UniGrad]

On 12/6/2020 at 9:41 AM, meepmeepmayer said:

So big and badass EUCs are natural as far as I'm concerned. They don't need to be heavy, though. Is there any benefit (like stability) to a weight over 25kg? I think not.

I did mention in my post and I still strongly believe it, that in going from the 16x (about 25kg) to the Sherman (about 35kg), you get a FAR more stable wheel. Not only for straight line speed, but also for high speed cornering with a hard lean. The Sherman holds it's lean without any required effort while the 16x wants to flap from side to side and demands fine control with one's legs to hold the lean angle steady.

Now granted this could be due to differences in the design. Namely geometry and weight distribution. So perhaps it is possible to make a 25kg wheel that feels as stable as the Sherman. But for now, as far as I can tell, those extra 10kg alone make a huge difference in stability.

[.....]

Hard to get around the realization that speed and power take batteries. Batteries weigh A LOT! Im sure we can get a very fast and strong wheel with minimal weight. IF, you only need to go 1/4 mile and dont care about solid build and lesser chance of overlean. FInd me a 55mph wheel that can go 50 miles and weighs less than 50lbs, with solid build, overhead in power and decent ergonomics, I'd but it! Same, if you can find me a supermoto with same power I have but make it only weigh 75lbs, I'd buy that too. The reality of it is, with current tech, you can't have the benefits of massive power banks but keep the weight down to that of a feather. Anyone figures out how to do that safely, reliably and in a cost effective manner, there are much more lucrative industries you need go work for. Seems to me that people are wishing for the currently impossible. But hey, its okay to dream!

@UniGrad you think that perhaps the size of the wheel may have as much to do with stabliity as the weight of it?

Edited December 7, 2020 by ShanesPlanet

[UniGrad]

On 12/6/2020 at 9:50 AM, Bridgeboy said:

I think everyone trying to compare EUCs as a "replacement" for some other mode of utilitarian transportation, such as a car, is missing the main attraction that I believe will make them popular. They are a recreation vehicle for pure fun. 

I don't ride mine to get to any "physical" destination. I ride mine to get to an the "emotional" destination of fun and excitement.

For me the combination of pleasure and utility is where it's at. I do still enjoy riding smaller wheels but if I could only have 1 wheel it would be the Serman because it can replace my van, the bus, train and the tram while still being super fun to ride.

As a matter of fact these fast wheels give you an adrenalin rush that no other wheel can provide. It's about as thrilling as riding a superbike. The smaller wheels are definitely a lot of fun for tricks and great for short trips in crowded areas though. They definitely have their own advantages and I'll never stop riding them.

On 12/6/2020 at 9:50 AM, Bridgeboy said:

The closest comparison I can make for them is Jet Skis and Wave Runners on the water. That's the kind of adrenaline fueled excitement you get from them, but on pavement and trails. Freedom to glide around and maneuver at will all over the place, but on land instead of water.

I've had this exact same thought when cruising by the sea shore on the sand at over 50km/h with my Sherman. I've thought to myself "this thing is like a jet ski for the sand". It's funny too because I always see jet ski owners look at my EUC as I ride by and you can see that they're super interested. This thing is more fun than a jet ski IMO. And this jet ski can get you to the beach and get you all the way home afterwards. I typically ride to a beach that's around 40km away, arriving with about 82% battery, then I can ride for hours on the sand and still have enough juice to rock n roll all the way home  It's mental
I actually uploaded a vid about this to YouTube called "50+km/h on the beach with electric unicycle - EUC - Veteran Sherman" 

 

[UniGrad]

And I should've mentioned that I've tried riding my 16x along the same beaches as seen in the video above and the fastest speed I feel comfortable with is about 25km/h. Since the wheel wants to bury itself into the sand and throw you off the front.

Now this could be down to the tyre alone but I really do believe that the extra weight of the Sherman gives it a great advantage in stability.
The thing I say is that, if the Sherman feels stable at 50km/h on the beach then imagine how stable it is on a smooth paved road.

Edited December 7, 2020 by UniGrad

[UniGrad]

On 12/6/2020 at 10:42 AM, Scottie888 said:

Far's adrenaline goes, there's just as much thrill going 20+mph in the lil' wheel as 40mph in a big 'un. It's all a matter of perspective & how far to the edge one dares. Far's recreation goes, honestly if the Mten3 has more range, I'd ride it as much as my other wheels (offroad trails aside).

I know exactly what you mean. However I'd be willing to bet at least $1000 that you get more adrenalin going 40mph with the bigger wheel. I mean if you could actually measure the adrenalin secretions. Going slow on the small wheel feels fast but it's not quite the same thing.

Kind of like making the comparison of going 150mph on a 1000cc sports bike and 75mph on a little scooter. Yeah the scooter may feel more sketchy and dangerous which gives you adrenalin. But the pure speed and stability provides a whole different type of thrill. There's a world of difference and IMO the thrill is far greater on the faster wheel. Not to mention much more prolonged.

I remember how Marty was overwhelmed with emotions when he first started riding the Sherman. This is basically how I feel every time I ride the Sherman. It's a thrill like no other. The smaller wheels really don't come close to providing this type of experience for me.

But they do provide a different type of experience which the Sherman fails to provide. The fun of practising tricks and being super nimble. Although the Sherman can still turn on a dime once you get used to it. And it starts to feel quite nimble. But will never be the same as a nimble wheel like the 16x.

On 12/6/2020 at 10:42 AM, Scottie888 said:

Much as in other modes of motorized transport, weight isn't a good thing. It's only a necessary evil.

I wasn't trying to advocate for unnecessary weight. Although I did mention a few things where the weight alone provides an advantage. And I don't believe any of those points can be rebutted.
But yeah I personally wouldn't advocate for adding dead weight to any EUC. Just more weight in the form of larger batteries, larger rims, more structural reinforcement ect.

[UniGrad]

On 12/6/2020 at 9:01 AM, AtlasP said:

Ultimately EUCs are uniquely suited as an answer to the 'last mile problem', and it's no surprise that the largest, best-selling category are the last-mile wheels (V8F, 16S, etc).

I'd wager that this is mainly down to the huge difference in price. I have personally tried the last mile thing, getting into a crowded bus with my smaller EUC, then a crowded tram. I can tell you that this is no luxury. And having the choice of being able to avoid the crowded bus/tram in favor of riding an EUC is a big luxury for me.

In my estimation, riding an EUC is noticeably more pleasant than standing shoulder to shoulder with a bunch of strangers while you hold onto a pole with one hand and your EUC with the other as the bus rocks back and forth and side to side. To add insult to injury the bus fare ain't cheap. While charging an EUC is dirt cheap.

On 12/6/2020 at 9:01 AM, AtlasP said:

But enthusiasts need to stop the perpetual advocacy that everyone should be buying these ridiculously oversized and overpriced wheels, with speed and range that the vast majority of riders will never use. And instead of downplaying the small-mid-size category you all should be championing it as it is where EUCs shine, where EUCs are easier to sell, and really where the EUC market will grow the most (outside of niche enthusiasts). And out of 10 of those wheels that get sold, you may get 1 person who falls in love like you do and buys a bigger/faster wheel.

The perpetual advocacy for larger wheels that you speak of actually doesn't exist. Most of the talk I see is against heavy wheels. Many people claim that these aren't true EUCs because a true EUC is a small and lightweight device. This is the very reason that I decided to start this thread.

I think you are confusing people's absolute LOVE for the Sherman as perpetual advocacy. People just keep saying how freakin awesome this EUC is and they are right. None of these people I have seen are downplaying smaller wheels though. Nor am I. In my post I mention that I love my smaller KS16x. In fact I love it every bit as my Sherman. It offers a totally different experience that the Sherman cannot. The ability to perform tricks and being extremely nimble. The Sherman feels more like a motorbike and gives you an adrenalin filled experience. But it's nearly every bit as convenient as the 16x for things like grocery shopping because once you're rolling it on the trolley handle that extra weight equates to pretty much nothing.

[UniGrad]

1 hour ago, ShanesPlanet said:

@UniGrad you think that perhaps the size of the wheel may have as much to do with stabliity as the weight of it?

@ShanesPlanetYeah you're right. I overlooked this completely. The Sherman has a tyre that's 4 inches larger. This would definitely be a big factor. Although I still believe that the extra weight is also a factor. But now not so sure how much of a factor. Maybe it's also a lot to do with the perfect balance of the Sherman. Maybe that's what makes it so much more stable when leaning hard into corners.

[.....]

1 hour ago, UniGrad said:

For me the combination of pleasure and utility is where it's at. I do still enjoy riding smaller wheels but if I could only have 1 wheel it would be the Serman because it can replace my van, the bus, train and the tram while still being super fun to ride.

Are you sure you  arent overselling the sherm just a tad? If a sherm can replace a van and bus and train, perhaps you weren't needing the passenger count of a van, nor the distance of a train? These wheels can do a lot of things, but ive yet to see one haul a few kids and their toys. Im not sure I'd take the serm vs a 100mile train ride in the dead of winter or a rainstorm. Perhaps its more of a goto and compliment, but a replacement?

1 hour ago, UniGrad said:

And I should've mentioned that I've tried riding my 16x along the same beaches as seen in the video above and the fastest speed I feel comfortable with is about 25km/h. Since the wheel wants to bury itself into the sand and throw you off the front.

Now this could be down to the tyre alone but I really do believe that the extra weight of the Sherman gives it a great advantage in stability.
The thing I say is that, if the Sherman feels stable at 50km/h on the beach then imagine how stable it is on a smooth paved road.

INteresting results. I was always of the thought that a lighter vehicle with same footprint, would do better in sand, assuming the power was sufficient. Heavier means it sits deeper doesnt it? Or is sand hardpack after an inch or two and doesnt matter? I ask as I havent ridden in anything but loose sand around here and don't go to the beach very often.

11 minutes ago, UniGrad said:

But it's nearly every bit as convenient as the 16x for things like grocery shopping because once you're rolling it on the trolley handle that extra weight equates to pretty much nothing.

I think you hit the nail on the head. Tho I notice the extra weight when trolleying the heavier wheel. Its not a carrying weight, but a rolling weight. Personally, I won't roll my sherm into a store, as its just such a beast. I will and have rolled my slightly smaller. I dont know if its simply the dimensions or the weight or the trolley angle, but the sherman is noticeably more difficult to trolley than some others. Of course, its still a breeze in compare to lifting it.

Edited December 7, 2020 by ShanesPlanet

[UniGrad]

1 minute ago, ShanesPlanet said:

Are you sure you  arent overselling the sherm just a tad? If a sherm can replace a van and bus and train, perhaps you weren't needing the passenger count of a van, nor the distance of a train? These wheels can do a lot of things, but ive yet to see one haul a few kids and their toys. Im not sure I'd take the serm vs a 100mile train ride in the dead of winter or a rainstorm.

Maybe a tad. After all, I do love my sherm to bits. But I should've emphasized that it can't take passengers or large cargo. Although here's a cool and relevant little story. Recently I needed to carry some 5m long pieces of timber and I tried to use my van for it but the timber was too long. Bus and train were obviously out of the question so I whipped out my 16x and got it done! Was actually quite a fun little challenge and a physical workout.

As far as 100 mile commutes go, this only applies to a very small minority. The vast majority of commutes are well under 30 miles which is easy on the sherm.

16 minutes ago, ShanesPlanet said:

INteresting results. I was always of the thought that a lighter vehicle with same footprint, would do better in sand, assuming the power was sufficient. Heavier means it sits deeper doesnt it? Or is sand hardpack after an inch or two and doesnt matter? I ask as I havent ridden in anything but loose sand around here and don't go to the beach very often.

You could be right and the difference could mainly be due to the larger tyre and the knobby tread. I think the sherman tyre may also be wider which again would give it an advantage. But yeah it definitely makes 100% sense from a physics perspective that a lighter vehicle with everything else being the same, should do better on the sand because it will be less prone to sinking in.
But then again the vehicle weight needs to include the rider weight. And that can vary massively. For example a heavy person on an mten3 could have a much greater weight than a light person on a sherman.

But it still all makes sense. Let's say a light weight person at 100lb can ride fine on the sand with some given wheel. Then get a 500lb dude on that same wheel and he's gonna sink so hard into the sand he'd probably bury the wheel. Clearly he does worse. Then take any weight in between and you should see a spectrum. For example a 250lb dude will probably sink in a bit more and struggle more for stability compared to the 100lb rider. But still fare much better than the 500lb rider.

As far as the sand goes it's mostly fairly smooth and hard packed but there are always sections that are more loose and bumpy where the sherman can still glide over at high speed. Although these sections can get sketchy if they go on for too long. But even on the hard packed stuff I don't feel safe on the 16x at any speed above running speed.

36 minutes ago, ShanesPlanet said:

I think you hit the nail on the head. Tho I notice the extra weight when trolleying the heavier wheel. Its not a carrying weight, but a rolling weight. Personally, I won't roll my sherm into a store, as its just such a beast. I will and have rolled my slightly smaller. I dont know if its simply the dimensions or the weight or the trolley angle, but the sherman is noticeably more difficult to trolley than some others. Of course, its still a breeze in compare to lifting it.

The sherman does look like an angry beast but to be honest, in terms of overall size/dimensions, it's not that different to my 16x. It's still basically the same size as my backpack so I find it no trouble at all bringing it into stores. But even so I still mainly take my 16x into stores since I always use my 16x for short trips. Love my 16x. Although here's one big advantage of the sherman for shopping. The trolley handle is super tough. you can use the fully extended trolley to lean the sherman on a wall and not worry about breaking it. And you can even drop the Sherman with the trolley fully extended and it does nothing to it. I've done it many times. The 16x handle and many others will break when this happens. I already had to replace my 16x trolley mechanism. Was quite easy though and only costed $40.

[UniGrad]

On 12/6/2020 at 10:29 AM, AtlasP said:

Not a chance. Obviously the Sherman would sell like crazy (in EUC terms/numbers) at $1k, but you are ignoring just how many people are actively choosing a 32lb device over an 77lb device for taking on a train/etc

If the Sherman and V8 costed the same amount, the Sherman would outsell the V8 simply due to it's higher inherent value. The sherman batteries alone would be worth more than the whole V8.
But in reality, if the Sherman costed $1k then the V8 would cost less than half of that. So it doesn't makes sense to be comparing things in this way.

 

On 12/6/2020 at 10:29 AM, AtlasP said:

but you are ignoring just how many people are actively choosing a 32lb device over an 77lb device for taking on a train/etc, who are never going to go faster than 20 mph, who are maybe willing to wear a helmet & wrist guards at most but not a whole suit of armor, who are never going to go more than 5-10 miles at a time, who will never pair it to a phone (apart from initial setup if necessary) or read a forum

Suit of armor is an exaggeration. When I rode my smaller wheel I used to ALWAYS wear wrist guards and knee pads. Then I added a helmet to that. Then when I got my Sherman, the extra protection I had to use included......................................... elbow pads. That's it!! Nothing more. Far from being a deal breaker.

Or when it's cold I throw on my moto jacket which has built in elbow pads, and it keeps me super warm and dry.

Like I've mentioned in this thread, getting into a crowded bus/train/subway with your smaller wheel, having to rub shoulders with strangers as you hold onto handrails with your EUC between your legs, while the bus jerks everyone constantly back and forth...................believe it or not..........it ain't the type of luxury that I've chosen for myself. And yes I've tried it.
So when you have the ability to replace that (the above) with the pleasant experience of riding an EUC, it's a good thing. And remember that bus fairs cost a lot while charging your EUC costs almost nothing. The EUC pays for itself.

On 12/6/2020 at 10:29 AM, AtlasP said:

but you are ignoring just how many people are actively choosing a 32lb device over an 77lb device for taking on a train/etc

On 12/6/2020 at 10:29 AM, AtlasP said:

who are never going to go more than 5-10 miles at a time, who will never pair it to a phone (apart from initial setup if necessary) or read a forum, etc.

What does pairing to a phone or reading a forum have to do with the size of the wheel? In fact the sherman wins on the "no need phone pairing" thing.

People only go 5-10 miles because they are having to rely on buses ect. How many of these people simply can't afford a larger wheel? Probably a lot. And don't you think they would take the opportunity to avoid the bus in favor of riding their EUC? Let's say they could press a button and all of a sudden their EUC has the range they need to commute. You think they still want to keep it down to 5-10 mile rides and keep getting on these crowded buses?? I mean really. I dunno

They could be actively choosing the crowded bus option. Or maybe they just can't afford the bigger wheel for now.

On 12/6/2020 at 10:29 AM, AtlasP said:

The same way the vast majority of bicycles and scooters and skateboards and virtually all micro-mobility devices are used and have been for over a century. Because that's the real world outside this tiny bubble.

Before I became a part of this tiny (awesome) bubble I thought the same way as everyone else. It takes a leap of faith to get an expensive device like this while also having the expectation that you'll be able to incorporate it into your life. I was very skeptical before getting into any form of EUC and always tended towards more conventional means of travel such as buses and scooters or bicycles. But once you know better.............

At this point in time, most people in the real world are unfortunately very much lacking in knowledge and experience when it comes to all the different mobility options out there. The fact that most people do something a certain way, doesn't rule out the existence of better ways that people would prefer. People simply do what they know. That's how the world works for the most part.

[UniGrad]

On 12/6/2020 at 11:53 AM, Bridgeboy said:

In this particular case of an EUC down near the ground while we're standing virtually straight upright, I respectfully disagree with this statement.

The heavy weight near the ground drops the overall center of gravity of the vehicle + rider and the result is much greater stability and control. I'm sure there's some engineers out there that can run some equations to provide evidence of this. It's at least like this for taller riders; the affect may be less prevalent for shorter people who already have a lower center of gravity.

 

 

You're absolutely 100% correct. I'm actually a mechanical engineer and I didn't mention this in the post but yes you are completely right. The more weight down low the better. No need for engineering equations since they may do more to confuse.

But basically, lower centre of mass = harder to tip over (assuming same total mass and bass geometry)

Total mass will vary greatly since it mostly depends on rider mass. Bass geometry depends on the tyre shape. But we can simply assume that we are comparing the same tyre and the same total mass of EUC+rider.

Now where this "harder to tip over" thing matters most is in cornering. That is while leaning into corners.

Indeed where the low down weight (hence lower centre of mass) will add the most stability is while leaning. Now that you mention this, it explains why my Sherman feels so much better when leaning into corners compared to my 16x. Even though the sherm is only 10kg heavier, all that extra weight being down low has a significant effect in terms of the centre of mass of the whole system (EUC+rider). Imagine wearing 10kg shoes. It will move your centre of mass down a decent bit and you'll feel quite different. Much more planted.

A good example is with motorcycles. The ones that need to do hard cornering (sports bikes) are always lower to the ground and demand a riding position that is also very low. The low centre of mass provides more stability in the lean. Now imagine a really tall bike like a penny farthing. Obviously very easy to tip over. Now imagine trying to lean a tall bike like that hard into a fast corner. It would be extremely unstable and would want to completely tip over onto its side.

 

[UniGrad]

On 12/6/2020 at 1:27 PM, KiwiMark said:

I think my RS is a good size/weight/range/speed/torque wheel for 90% of what I would want to use it for.  Still, I might end up buying a Sherman eventually for those longer rides where you accept an extra 8kg of weight so you can go a few tens of kilometres further.  The Sherman would be similar in speed and torque, but it would definitely beat my RS for range, you know, because 3,200Wh is more than 1,800Wh.  I could still use my RS for shorter rides, but for longer rides you just accept more weight in exchange for the ability to last the distance.  A lighter wheel might seem easier to use, but if you have to wheel it 10km home after its batteries run out - is it really easier to use?

I don't know about the RS but from what I know riding my 16x and my Sherman and extrapolating the results, the Sherman should get about 2x the range compared to an 1800Wh wheel if we're talking about high speed riding.

You don't just get more watt hours. The fact that you have more cells in parallel means that you work each cell less for any given power output. These means more capacity because cells put out more energy when they aren't stressed as much. So there's a non linear relationship between battery capacity and range.

Put simply, if you double the battery size you get more than double the range.

This doesn't apply so much for low speed riding since the cells do not get stressed enough for the variable capacity phenomenon to become a significant factor. Hence you would only get double the range instead of more than double (by doubling the battery size).

Edited December 8, 2020 by UniGrad

[AtlasP]

On 12/7/2020 at 4:36 PM, UniGrad said:

I'd wager that this is mainly down to the huge difference in price. I have personally tried the last mile thing, getting into a crowded bus with my smaller EUC, then a crowded tram. I can tell you that this is no luxury. And having the choice of being able to avoid the crowded bus/tram in favor of riding an EUC is a big luxury for me.

This is entirely dependent on distance/local trip context. Lots of people's commutes are simply too long and/or contain micro-vehicle-unfriendly portions (suburbs & highways) where a PEV is simply not an option for the entire span.

 

Quote

The perpetual advocacy for larger wheels that you speak of actually doesn't exist. Most of the talk I see is against heavy wheels. Many people claim that these aren't true EUCs because a true EUC is a small and lightweight device. This is the very reason that I decided to start this thread.

I wish that were the case. Instead I have cringe memories of people trying to talk a 100lb girl who lives on a third-floor walk-up (!) that she should skip the 32-38lb V8/16S and get a 55lb MSX instead. (*facepalm*) Or convincing the poor 125lb college student who just wanted the smallest cheapest option for a 2.5km trip between the train station and some part-time work that his best option was an over-$2k Nikola and that everything smaller sucked. (Dude decided to skip EUCs and get a scooter.) I wish I was kidding. Spend a month in this place and you'll see this sh1t time and time again.

Edited December 13, 2020 by AtlasP

[Bridgeboy]

I apologize ahead of time for not having the time to read through everything above before posting (I have a day job that takes 60 to 70 hours of my time per week). However, a heavier rider+EUC in the sand makes sense because it takes more load/force to push away the loose sand until you're griping on more stable, compacted sand.

Soft and loose sand is unforgiving for a light load. Heavier loads push away the loose sand and bears upon a more solid foundation lower below...

[Silver]

16 minutes ago, AtlasP said:

I wish that were the case. Instead I have cringe memories of people trying to talk a 100lb girl who lives on a third-floor walk-up (!) that she should skip the 32-38lb V8/16S and get a 55lb MSX instead. (*facepalm*) Or convincing the poor 125lb college student who just wanted the smallest cheapest option for a 2.5km trip between the train station and work that his best option was an over-$2k Nikola and that everything smaller sucked. (Dude decided to skip EUCs and get a scooter.) I wish I was kidding. Spend a month in this place and you'll see this sh1t time and time again.

Agreed, It's particularly that way on reddit(Easier for new people to ask on there I guess). The only light wheel I ever saw recommended was the MTen3 and people would immediately jump in and start arguing that it was either a complete waist of money or the best thing ever.

[UniGrad]

  

3 hours ago, AtlasP said:

This is entirely dependent on distance/local trip context. Lots of people's commutes are simply too long and/or contain micro-vehicle-unfriendly portions (suburbs & highways) where a PEV is simply not always an option for the entire trip.

Yeah that's a good point. Some routes aren't very friendly for PEVs. But I'd still try to make it work somehow. Stubborn me.
As far as the distance goes (see the subtle pun there), the vast majority of commutes are under 20 or 30 miles. Easy on a big wheel assuming the route is good.

3 hours ago, AtlasP said:

I wish that were the case. Instead I have cringe memories of people trying to talk a 100lb girl who lives on a third-floor walk-up (!) that she should skip the 32-38lb V8/16S and get a 55lb MSX instead. (*facepalm*)

More good points. Yeah stairs are gonna change things a bit. But you can always roll a larger wheel up and down the steps. Not ideal but not terrible with a 20+ inch wheel. The MSX would be too small for this. But any place with elevators or wheelchair ramps will have no such issue.

I definitely think that lighter wheels have their place.

Edited December 8, 2020 by UniGrad

[UniGrad]

3 hours ago, Bridgeboy said:

I apologize ahead of time for not having the time to read through everything above before posting (I have a day job that takes 60 to 70 hours of my time per week). However, a heavier rider+EUC in the sand makes sense because it takes more load/force to push away the loose sand until you're griping on more stable, compacted sand.

Soft and loose sand is unforgiving for a light load. Heavier loads push away the loose sand and bears upon a more solid foundation lower below...

Hey that's a great point too and it makes sense. Earlier in the thread me and @ShanesPlanetwere discussing the opposite. That less weight is better because the wheel won't dig into the sand as much. I think both things are true to an extent since this is a very complex non linear problem.

I think it will depend greatly on the type of sand and how it's layered. If it is fairly consistent sand then I believe that less weight is better. But if there is a thin upper layer of soft sand followed by lower dense layers, then more weight would be better for the reasons you say. But again it's not so simple like the more weight the better it gets. It will be better only up to a certain point. After which point more weight would be detrimental to stability.

[Bridgeboy]

18 hours ago, UniGrad said:

Hey that's a great point too and it makes sense. Earlier in the thread me and @ShanesPlanetwere discussing the opposite. That less weight is better because the wheel won't dig into the sand as much. I think both things are true to an extent since this is a very complex non linear problem.

I think it will depend greatly on the type of sand and how it's layered. If it is fairly consistent sand then I believe that less weight is better. But if there is a thin upper layer of soft sand followed by lower dense layers, then more weight would be better for the reasons you say. But again it's not so simple like the more weight the better it gets. It will be better only up to a certain point. After which point more weight would be detrimental to stability.

Yeah it all depends....I was replying to someone who said the Sherman had more stability in the sand and it made sense to me. Maybe it was the OP. For their particular sand scenario, the Sherman provided more stability.

In pure sugar sand, a lighter load would be more "buoyant" and would probably "float" better upon it. That's why newer beach bikes have super fat tires to create more buoyancy in soft sand, or rather spread the load over a wider area.

Either way, sand, or gravel, or other granular substrate is bad news for a single point of contact with the ground. EUCs are meant for pavement; or other solid substrate.

Edited December 9, 2020 by Bridgeboy

[UniGrad]

On 12/9/2020 at 2:19 PM, Bridgeboy said:

Yeah it all depends....I was replying to someone who said the Sherman had more stability in the sand and it made sense to me. Maybe it was the OP. For their particular sand scenario, the Sherman provided more stability.

In pure sugar sand, a lighter load would be more "buoyant" and would probably "float" better upon it. That's why newer beach bikes have super fat tires to create more buoyancy in soft sand, or rather spread the load over a wider area.

Yeah I am the OP and that was me saying the Sherman feels more stable on the sand. Much much much more stable actually.
But then @ShanesPlanet gave a valid reason why lighter wheels should be better on sand. Which made me realize that there's lots of variables that I hadn't considered.
But yeah good call on the buoyancy thing. That's exactly where lighter wheels have the edge. Or should I say lack of edge. No edge diggin in lol

On 12/9/2020 at 2:19 PM, Bridgeboy said:

Either way, sand, or gravel, or other granular substrate is bad news for a single point of contact with the ground. EUCs are meant for pavement; or other solid substrate.

I don't fully agree. For medium to harder packed sand an EUC does very well. I don't know how I'd feel on my bicycle at over 50km/h on the sand by the sea shore. It wouldn't take much for the front tyre to dig in enough to twist the handlebars and instantly throw you into a front flip. Come to think about it more.... I'd really hesitate to ride my bike anywhere near these speeds on sand. Probably only with a fat tyre monster ebike would I do it. But even then I wouldn't even bother trying. I'm honestly terrified of that front flip scenario since it happened to me as a kid and I landed directly on my head snapping my helmet in half so fast I didn't even know what happened. Luckily I didn't have major injuries though. Just a medium concussion that caused depression for about 2 weeks.

A wider bicycle tyre is better.

But........... if the front tyre does dig in you immediately get forced into an old favorite game called high speed 1 on 1 fight with upside down bicycle

Never a good thing. The stakes are high, it's steel vs flesh, and it's no holds barred. Or is it...................all bars held.............I guess it depends on how you play

Now...... If you fall from the EUC you'll glide along on the sand. 1 in 1000 times the EUC will make contact with you.

But that's rare and even then it's nothing like the bike fight.

On the Sherman I ride these speeds on the sand and it feels quite good. A slight tendency for the wheel to dig into the sand but it's not enough to cause a loss of control. Just GOOD OL regular size wobbles that don't cause too much concern.
 

Edited December 10, 2020 by UniGrad

[Bridgeboy]

Well the only times I've felt not in control on a EUC is when I'm on a loose substrate. I'm scared to death to try to turn at all unless I'm on something solid. I feel like the wheel could just slip out from under me when I'm on something loose. Every time I've tried to ride through loose sand I end up falling or bailing. I've never attempted, nor will I ever intentionally attempt to ride through loose sand at any appreciable speed.

I've mentioned this before in other threads, but the only time I wiped out at high speed was when I flew into a grass field that I had ridden through a dozen times before, but this time it was flooded just under the grass line and was not visually apparent, my wheel slid out from under me and I went down. Apparently it was due to an underground broken irrigation pipe. I slid a long way and eventually stopped. Because the grass and ground was soft (and wet), and I was fully geared up,  I was not hurt...just wet  ...I got lucky...Lesson learned...

Wet grass is just like loose sand...it does not provide a stable surface for the single point of contact to grab onto...