Riding in the UK/London still illegal?

[TedTheAtheist]

I'm considering moving to the UK in a year or so. I read online that it's now legal to ride "rented e-scooters", but with a provisional license and insurance from the hire company, whatever that means.

I'm hoping by the time I want to come they will be legal - but are we doing anything over in the UK to help push for their legality?

I see arguments against them, stating "congestion" or "accidents", but you get that with anything you ride - especially cars. I think they should be fully legal with no speed limits but perhaps requiring a helmet in the very least.

I'm surprised that the USA doesn't give a rat's ass about EUCs, but that the UK cares. I don't get it. Does anyone see a change coming soon to the UK on this? Is there a way we can get them to address them in our favor? Anyone in/around London/UK area who has more info or hopes? Thank you.

[mike_bike_kite]

Boris is very pro PEV's (personal electric vehicles) and the Covid thing is also keeping people away from public transport so it should be a brilliant time for making EUC's legal. The problem is that some of these vehicles are very fast and many riders have no driving license and seem to have no real idea what the rules on the road are. Many riders wear no protection and none of us have insurance (it's not available). Rental scooters are currently allowed but that's because their speed is limited to approx 15mph. At the moment the police tolerate us on the road if we're riding with due care and attention but it will only take one accident with a heavy EUC hitting a pedestrian at speed to make the police clamp down.

I've filled in all the questionnaires and signed all the campaigns but I can't see anything changing. If you want to try and make things legal (here or elsewhere) then ride sensibly, stop at red lights and avoid riding near pedestrians. Years ago there used to be someone that rode over London bridge each day on an EUC and often took an umbrella for when it rained - many people used to talk about him and it seemed like the future of transport. Now when I hear people talking about EUC's it's usually in a negative way.

 

[Antec]

Comes down to the fact that the Government cannot regulate use of personal owned EUCs, they need to make money out of it somehow, hence why they introduced the "rented" e-scooters part, do rent you need to have a driving license too.

the whole thing is madness, i personally still ride EUCs (Road or Cycle Paths), im fully geared and respect other road users and pedestrians.

 

[Planemo]

I am not convinced the government are in it for money. After all they let us have ebikes which they get zero return for.

What I dont think the government want is 10 year old kids flying round on motorized vehicles without any insurance, traceability or indeed any laws whatsover currently covering pevs. There is at least an age restriction (and speed) on ebikes.

If pevs were to open up to private owners you can bet they would require at least the same laws as ebikes. I think the trials are nothing more than dipping their toe in the water to see how it goes. I agree the test data will be largely useless, but I also think a generic 'open to all' pev law could cause mayhem so many people see that what the uk has done is better than nothing. I dont know, its a tricky one. If I had total faith that the population could be trusted to ride properly I might feel different but tbh I dont. And theres no getting away from the fact that all pevs are inherently more dangerous than ebikes.

Personally I think pevs should be allowed to those with driving licences (given the speeds) and insurance (to cover collisions) which to be fair is exactly what the government has done, albeit not including privately owned at this point but as I say I think its just in order to 'test the water' at this stage. I can only hope we dont get issues during the trials and that the doors will open a year or so after the trials have completed.

 

[joca]

Currently the only PEVs allowed on the roads are e-bikes, limited to 250w and 15mph, and must be pedal-assisted (technically e-bikes with throttles are illegal but I don't think it's enforced, might affect liability in an accident). Anything else needs to be registered and insured and registration won't usually be granted unless manufacturers jump through the right hoops (which generally, they don't).

This is all based on EU law so the UK now has more freedom to amend the rules. I'm hopeful that the e-scooter trials will be the first step to normalising PEVs on the road (or further normalising, as loads of people seem to ignore the law without real consequences, although the Met Police have had a few crackdown days). I think they're going with a dockless model for e-scooter hire which is not great environmentally (they pay people to go round and collect them in vans for recharging, which often happens with a generator) and will also cause no end of strife for people who are blind, pushing buggies or using a wheelchair. If demand is high enough, there will be a good case for docking (making the hire model more costly) and for encouraging more private owners who will pick their vehicles up and take them inside with them.

I doubt any relaxation in the law will cover higher power EUCs any time soon and fairly low speed restrictions are very likely, making them a little less desirable for longer commutes. But I think there's a good chance that they'll end up being treated much like e-bikes. Eventually.

Technically they're not legal for use in parks or on towpaths either. Only on private land with the owner's permission. This is much less likely to get enforced, as long as you're not upsetting pedestrians/cyclists/groundskeepers. The canal network is excellent and the Canal & Rivers Trust reasonably relaxed if you're not causing a nuisance (but it may depend on which patrol officer you happen to bump into). There's also a national cycle network which is patchy but useful, and you'd get away with it if you weren't upsetting anyone. That would mean sticking to bicycle speeds on any stretches were there are people around to get upset about it.

 

 

[Inmotion Global]

As one of the EUC manufacurers, we are willing to help legalising the electric unicycle based on the support of the local riders or distributors. Currently, more and more people starts knowing what electric unicycle is. Their recogonition has evolved from "what's that thing" to "Oh, that's unicycle. How it works". 

There are some downsides that might cause. I'm not being passive, it's just my own speculations.

Driving Lisence Needed. Riding an EUC might cost more for those people who doesn't have a lisence. 

Speed Limit Needed. Just like the ecooter, the top speed of an escooter is restricted to 20km/h or 25km/h. Can you image that all the electric unicycles can only cruise at such low speed? Honestly, the EUC community are still looking at some extrem wheels with higher speed and more range. That can explain why Sherman goes viral on Youtube recently.

But if you see things from the other side, it might be possible to go mainstream that Electric Unicycle can be leaglised. With more developed mature training lessons taken, the skills got improved. The fears towards the danger of rinding an EUC might be faded away. 

 

[joca]

2 hours ago, Inmotion Global said:

As one of the EUC manufacurers, we are willing to help legalising the electric unicycle based on the support of the local riders or distributors. Currently, more and more people starts knowing what electric unicycle is. Their recogonition has evolved from "what's that thing" to "Oh, that's unicycle. How it works". 

There are some downsides that might cause. I'm not being passive, it's just my own speculations.

Driving Lisence Needed. Riding an EUC might cost more for those people who doesn't have a lisence. 

Speed Limit Needed. Just like the ecooter, the top speed of an escooter is restricted to 20km/h or 25km/h. Can you image that all the electric unicycles can only cruise at such low speed? Honestly, the EUC community are still looking at some extrem wheels with higher speed and more range. That can explain why Sherman goes viral on Youtube recently.

But if you see things from the other side, it might be possible to go mainstream that Electric Unicycle can be leaglised. With more developed mature training lessons taken, the skills got improved. The fears towards the danger of rinding an EUC might be faded away. 

 

If you were willing to work with the DVLA to make higher power EUCs possible to register, that would be amazing.

If they were registered vehicles, it would remove the 25kph (15mph) limit because you would require a driver's licence (or L plates and CBT) and insurance, so it would be like any other road vehicle legally. There would undoubtedly be power and speed limits for riders without a full driver's licence but they wouldn't be as low as for unregistered PEVs.

The big barrier is getting them registerable (and finding somewhere for the licence plate). There'd also need to be the equivalent of a CBT test. This is a simple half day where learner motorcyclists prove they're safe on the road - exercises in a playground and then a road run with the instructor/examiner. Cheap and simple, and no reason EUC riders couldn't do exactly the same test as motorcyclists so there wouldn't be any need for new test infrastructure.

Passing your CBT allows you to use up to 125cc motorcycles on the road with no need for a full driver's licence (minimum age is 16). People with full driving (non-bike) licences have to do it too. An EUC is just a one-wheeled motorcycle so it should be able to slot into exactly the same laws quite easily. Third party insurance would be pretty cheap for such light vehicles.

I don't see any other route to getting higher power machines made road legal, it's the insurance they're mostly worried about. But it should also be possible to get EUCs with a top speed of 15mph (25kph) treated the same as ebikes, which is likely what will happen for escooters too. Although a CBT would still be wise for anyone planning on riding in traffic.

[Will R]

I see a split happening between the legal ebike class and the growing one-wheeled-motorcycle class, in where the former can be ridden on cycle paths and the latter more meant to keep up with traffic. While I do not think it is safe for a 14 year old with no driving experience to contend with lorries and busses on a 50mph wheel, I also do not think it is safe to force us adults to stay below 15.5mph and ride in the gutter to be overtaken by road-ragey drivers as that makes the pavement a comparatively safer place to be and will be an unfair hazard for people with disabilities.

I personally believe the non-licenced PEV speed should be raised to a max of 30mph on roads and ~20mph on shared pedestrian/cycle paths, as this is what cyclists are capable of and are doing anyway just to keep up with traffic flow and stay safe. If the limit is kept too low, it will exacerbate the existing criminalisation of people modchipping their ebikes to just attain normal cycling speeds. (See: the plethora of 250w motor stickers available to buy online). Perhaps 30mph is too fast and ≥25mph is more appropriate in terms of potential injury sustained from a crash, but I base this judgement on the crap that cyclists and moped riders are subjected to on a daily basis - if you are going more than 10mph below the posted speed limit drivers get crazy and take risks with YOUR life. 

Above 30mph, a valid car/bike licence, CBT and mandatory motorycycle-grade helmet seem appropriate. This would enable us that want to be insured to do so.

As far as EUC-specific CBTs go, put me down for being the first DVLA-certified instructor! I can't think of a more enjoyable job.

[Planemo]

1 hour ago, joca said:

The big barrier is getting them registerable

Indeed, and the inability to fit any form of a mechanical brake or indeed any form of redundancy whatsoever means it will stay thay way.

Anything self balancing (without redundancy) means that a mechanical brake is a non starter by default because in the event of a power failure we are going to crash before any mechanical brake has a chance to be of any use. This is our problem.

So it leaves us maybe being allowed a very slow speed limit (max 15.5mph) but I very much doubt it will ever be more than that because insurers will get a little twitchy I feel. If I was an underwriter I would be. After all, you could have a very very large insurance payout resting on a 20+ mph non-crash celled vehicle made in China with no redundancy and, most crucially, an immediate crash in the event of a power failure. And this risk is separate to how skilled the rider is, fancy licence or not. In these days of everything being litigious its a hard sell to even the waftiest insurer. Unless the manufacturers can prove the vehicle can be safely brought to a stop under a power failure I cant see anything over 15.5mph being allowed, if we even get that. After all, every single escooter tested by the DVLA in relation to the trials had to have a mechanical brake. If it didn't, it was disregarded immediately.

I hate to be a doom-mongerer but this is the reality in the UK. Other countries are clearly a bit more relaxed but even then have any actually legalised eucs to more than 20mph or so as opposed to 'tolerate' them?

[PLEASE_DELETE]

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[.....]

17 minutes ago, /Dev/Null said:

Meanwhile, paramotoring is legal there, no ?   I wonder how licensing is for that over there...in the USA if you meet certain minimal requirements, it seems to be fairly unregulated.

far103 protects paramotors for now in the usa. Its a throwback from the days when people were allowed to experiment in hopes it would drive innovation.  Of course, theres already whispers in the wind that they are going to revisit far103 and make the sport license class larger and ridding of the unltralight class altogether. Some call it progress... I like to differ. NOTHING escapes bureaucracy and government control, given a long enough timeline... In time, the euc will be heavily controlled as well

Edited July 28, 2020 by ShanesPlanet

[Planemo]

40 minutes ago, /Dev/Null said:

Meanwhile, paramotoring is legal there, no ?   I wonder how licensing is for that over there...in the USA if you meet certain minimal requirements, it seems to be fairly unregulated.

Thats a good point. Yes it is, amazingly so. I find it staggering in a way but then when you weigh up the risks against land based vehicular transport I would guess that the odds of crashing a paramotor (and more importantly, into other people) is far less than a 40mph euc.

I dont know if paramotors need insurance by law but I guess you would be mad not to, providing you can get it which I assume you can.

Paramotoring must be the most mad, legal fun you can have in the uk without huge amounts of regulation. I think its brilliant. I do wonder though that if it was more mainstream (ie more people doing it) that it would be tightened up. That said, its in every pilots interest to make sure their kit is up to scratch because a failure likely means their death. Land based transport, despite potentially similar high risk, seems to be taken far less seriously for some reason. I guess thats down to pilots in general being more 'professional'. Your average lout on a 100v gotway probably doesnt even check their tyre pressures from one month to the next but even if they do we are still at the mercy of a power system which is risky at best, and far riskier than any system likely to be used in aviation which historically runs with a huge amount of headroom and/or redundancy. And therein lies the answer to your point I guess....how many paramotors, pro rata, actually fall out of the sky endangering others?

[Unventor]

9 hours ago, Inmotion Global said:

As one of the EUC manufacurers, we are willing to help legalising the electric unicycle based on the support of the local riders or distributors. Currently, more and more people starts knowing what electric unicycle is. Their recogonition has evolved from "what's that thing" to "Oh, that's unicycle. How it works". 

There are some downsides that might cause. I'm not being passive, it's just my own speculations.

Driving Lisence Needed. Riding an EUC might cost more for those people who doesn't have a lisence. 

Speed Limit Needed. Just like the ecooter, the top speed of an escooter is restricted to 20km/h or 25km/h. Can you image that all the electric unicycles can only cruise at such low speed? Honestly, the EUC community are still looking at some extrem wheels with higher speed and more range. That can explain why Sherman goes viral on Youtube recently.

But if you see things from the other side, it might be possible to go mainstream that Electric Unicycle can be leaglised. With more developed mature training lessons taken, the skills got improved. The fears towards the danger of rinding an EUC might be faded away. 

 

I think the drivers license would be a huge benefit. It means that people showing bad traffic behaviour can be punished and that will be to the offender and not the community.

I think aiming for for a bicycle no-licence 25kmh speed li.it. And a license for 45kmh as an EU moped with insurance would be nice. It mske it more useful and yet not pushing too hard on legislation demands about braking, signal and lights. 

And this is where the V11 is brilliant to show as a serious PEV, not a toy with disko lights that isn't allowed in many traffic laws. With the suspension also better suited to urban worn roads to uneven walk paths at walking speeds.

[PLEASE_DELETE]

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Edited March 18 by PLEASE_DELETE

[.....]

more licensing, more rules, more regulation... jeez its always the answer around here, aint it? It makes me quite ill to read how people think that more rules equates to more safety. Its all an illusion. You want safety and surety of no financial loss, stay in a bomb shelter and dont buy anything or do anything. Thank goodness theres still a few people on my side of the planet, that think its okay to roll the dice and take a risk or two. Part of living among other people, is the assumption that THEY may put you in danger and THEY may cost you money. Its a fools errand to keep throwing money and regs in hope that youll be safe and secure. Leave our euc's alone and let us ride them, just like kids used to be able on a bicycle. Leave our paramotors alone and quite making the insurance companies rich. If i wanted to be a pilot with insurance and licensing, it would cost me a fortune and I'd go do that. If i wanted another vehicle to insure and register, I'd have another motorcycle instead of an euc. Quit trying to embrace the ruination of the simple joy of being able to choose your own level of risk. I have ZERO insurance on my paramotor, and if i fall out of the sky, Its my ass that takes the hit. If i fall onto a car, I guess I'll be paying to fix a car. Meh, government control is for the borg.. Im sure the governments LOVE to perpetuate the idea that more rules and more legal control will equate to a safer life. Such lies.... Why is it the older people get, the more likely they are to believe that Big Daddy will take care of them? Fwiw, I take maintenance seriously. I dont need anyone requiring shit. I choose to do pre trip flight inspections and comb thru my vehicles. Its not law that makes me do it, its my ability and personality. Just as Ive seen laws ignored in the auto industry for the sake of the $$. Rules don't mean shit and only work for those that were less likely to be a problem and follow them anyhow.

Edited July 28, 2020 by ShanesPlanet

[PLEASE_DELETE]

Deleted.

Edited March 18 by PLEASE_DELETE

[joca]

10 minutes ago, /Dev/Null said:

I can't speak for there, but roughly 25% of the people driving cars here are uninsured with no license.  Licensing does NOT make sure people have drivers license before operating a vehicle.  Many of these people don't have a license because of prior bad behavior, but that doesn't stop them.  You can't throw 25% of motorists in jail or the jails would be full with nothing but motorists.

It's certainly a lot easier to get away with being unlicensed when it is possible to be licensed. Right now, anyone using an EUC on the road (in the UK) is breaking the law which makes them kinda easy to spot.

[Unventor]

7 hours ago, ShanesPlanet said:

more licensing, more rules, more regulation... jeez its always the answer around here, aint it? It makes me quite ill to read how people think that more rules equates to more safety. Its all an illusion. You want safety and surety of no financial loss, stay in a bomb shelter and dont buy anything or do anything. Thank goodness theres still a few people on my side of the planet, that think its okay to roll the dice and take a risk or two. Part of living among other people, is the assumption that THEY may put you in danger and THEY may cost you money. Its a fools errand to keep throwing money and regs in hope that youll be safe and secure. Leave our euc's alone and let us ride them, just like kids used to be able on a bicycle. Leave our paramotors alone and quite making the insurance companies rich. If i wanted to be a pilot with insurance and licensing, it would cost me a fortune and I'd go do that. If i wanted another vehicle to insure and register, I'd have another motorcycle instead of an euc. Quit trying to embrace the ruination of the simple joy of being able to choose your own level of risk. I have ZERO insurance on my paramotor, and if i fall out of the sky, Its my ass that takes the hit. If i fall onto a car, I guess I'll be paying to fix a car. Meh, government control is for the borg.. Im sure the governments LOVE to perpetuate the idea that more rules and more legal control will equate to a safer life. Such lies.... Why is it the older people get, the more likely they are to believe that Big Daddy will take care of them? Fwiw, I take maintenance seriously. I dont need anyone requiring shit. I choose to do pre trip flight inspections and comb thru my vehicles. Its not law that makes me do it, its my ability and personality. Just as Ive seen laws ignored in the auto industry for the sake of the $$. Rules don't mean shit and only work for those that were less likely to be a problem and follow them anyhow.

It might be how things works for you.

But to get accepted in traffic here in Europe on grand scale, it comes at a cost. And should a car hit yoy and the wheel causes mayham in oppersite traffic lane outside your control, you are still legial for that damage. that is why having insurance is a good option in my view. By being able to sell more would normally bring down costs, more local dealers, easier service. City life in EU are not like wide open farm roads in the US. When people ride in denser traffic, rules is what keeps the traffic flowing because you can anticipate what is happening around you. 

[.....]

29 minutes ago, Unventor said:

City life in EU are not like wide open farm roads in the US. When people ride in denser traffic, rules is what keeps the traffic flowing because you can anticipate what is happening around you. 

Dont make the mistake of assuming all of usa is like my current locale. I was an OTR trucker for many many miles. One thing i have learned is that when an accident happens, someone always pays. If its your insurance company, they are just paying what other people paid them in premiums. If its paid by personal means, its from your pocket in one shot. Putting your faith in the law/rules to help you anticipate the flow of traffic is just ludicrous. What keeps people safe (yeah right) in traffic, is their own personal skill level and dedication to paying attention. Nowadays, accidents are so common, people dont even care. I chalk it up to the fact that theres no accountability as people place it in the hands of insurance and police. Laws, insurance, traffic structure, no matter, the death toll rises everyday. Its just NOW, we think that as long as we're legal and paying insurance, we've nothing to worry about. Fwiw, I carry insurance on my cars as it only seems fair to everyone else. Of course, I crash one and my insurance only covers them, not me. THATS my incentive to avoid accidents in the first place. Bicycles, unicycles, pedestrians, the odds of an accident being horrendously expensive for someone else involved, is very minor. How much insurance should a person carry, when they run down the street on foot? Once people start to look into insuring things, it will be not long at all, before the joy gets stolen and someone else gets to tell me how to behave, enjoy and use my equipment. The rules of 'break it and buy it', should apply either way. The unicycle is only 50lbs and only does 40mph. Bicycles are very similar and I'd be ashamed if I showed ANY interest in insuring one of those. I pity the person who feels they are safer just because I'm carrying insurance. The more I read about it, the more I thank God that I was born and raised in the USA during the 70's.

 

Edited July 29, 2020 by ShanesPlanet

[Planemo]

8 hours ago, ShanesPlanet said:

 It makes me quite ill to read how people think that more rules equates to more safety.

I'm not sure anyone here has said that though. I certainly dont.

8 hours ago, ShanesPlanet said:

 If i fall onto a car, I guess I'll be paying to fix a car.

Paying to fix a car isnt too hard, unless you are unlucky enough to fall on a hypercar I guess. Just a Lambo door alone is over 7k but I appreciate that even funding that is doable for most.

Its when you injure people that the shit hits the fan. I dont have 500k+ sitting around to support someone who suffers a lifelong brain injury as a result of my wish to have some fun. Hence why I would rather have insurance. Clearly you have the dollar stashed to cater for such eventualities which is cool. Either way, if someone puts me in hospital just because I am walking down the street I am going after their ass. I am certainly not the only person on this planet who feels this way, hence I would like to be covered on an euc and not lose everything I own just because I fancy having a bit of fun on a 1 wheeled vehicle.

[joca]

26 minutes ago, ShanesPlanet said:

Dont make the mistake of assuming all of usa is like my current locale. I was an OTR trucker for many many miles. One thing i have learned is that when an accident happens, someone always pays. If its your insurance company, they are just paying what other people paid them in premiums. If its paid by personal means, its from your pocket in one shot. Putting your faith in the law/rules to help you anticipate the flow of traffic is just ludicrous. What keeps people safe (yeah right) in traffic, is their own personal skill level and dedication to paying attention. Nowadays, accidents are so common, people dont even care. I chalk it up to the fact that theres no accountability as people place it in the hands of insurance and police. Laws, insurance, traffic structure, no matter, the death toll rises everyday. Its just NOW, we think that as long as we're legal and paying insurance, we've nothing to worry about. Fwiw, I carry insurance on my cars as it only seems fair to everyone else. Of course, I crash one and my insurance only covers them, not me. THATS my incentive to avoid accidents in the first place. Bicycles, unicycles, pedestrians, the odds of an accident being horrendously expensive for someone else involved, is very minor. How much insurance should a person carry, when they run down the street on foot? Once people start to look into insuring things, it will be not long at all, before the joy gets stolen and someone else gets to tell me how to behave, enjoy and use my equipment. The rules of 'break it and buy it', should apply either way. The unicycle is only 50lbs and only does 40mph. Bicycles are very similar and I'd be ashamed if I showed ANY interest in insuring one of those. I pity the person who feels they are safer just because I'm carrying insurance. The more I read about it, the more I thank God that I was born and raised in the USA during the 70's.

 

Cyclists don't generally do 40mph in the city. Those who get anywhere close to it do sometimes end up killing people and the whole insurance for cyclists thing raises its ugly head again.

The question isn't whether there should be a line, it's where you draw it. Wheels capable of higher speeds than a fast cyclist are also considerably heavier than the kinds of bicyles ridden by fast cyclists. There's no point arguing that they are exactly the same because they aren't.

[PLEASE_DELETE]

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Edited March 18 by PLEASE_DELETE

[joca]

I don't think anyone seriously disagrees that EUCs (and other PEVs) should be treated like e-bikes. Which are limited (in the EU) to 250w and 15.5mph (and must be pedal-assisted, but that obv isn't possible for most PEVs; ditto the 250w power limit if 15.5mph is permissible).

In practice that is how they are currently treated. Police mostly ignore them and loads of people get away with them for commuting.

But we're way past the point where 15mph was an exciting top speed and all EUCs looked like a kid's toy. Wheels like the Monster, Sherman, V11 and S18 are going to attract a lot more attention. Especially if they're doing 30mph in traffic.

The choice is all of them banned because the authorities conclude that there is no real difference between a 14D and an S18, as argued above, or reasonable legislation that puts smaller/speed-limited wheels on a par with e-bikes (and ideally a route to registration for more powerful wheels on a par with motorbikes/mopeds).

[PLEASE_DELETE]

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Edited March 18 by PLEASE_DELETE

[joca]

Because, as I said, the newer generation of wheels are nothing like regular bicycles. The lad that killed a pedestrian (I linked to the story earlier) was riding like a maniac on a super light carbon bike at ... 18mph.

Newer generation wheels are 3-4 times the weight of a normal bicycle and go 2-3 times as fast. Faster than many of the 50cc scooters that require a licence (full, or provisional with L plates) and insurance for road use.

There's no point pretending that all wheels are just like bicycles when some of them so obviously are not. If that argument gets accepted, they'll all be banned regardless.