Coronavirus & economics: debt, capitalism socialism, you name it!

[atdlzpae]

Topic split from:

 

 

On 4/11/2020 at 6:53 PM, Patton250 said:

Stupidity= A person or people that disagree with atslzpae 

There are a lot of smart people who disagree with me.
In that particular case I meant people who created our modern monetary system.

On 4/11/2020 at 6:53 PM, Patton250 said:

Our economy and its fundamentals are basically still strong we just need to open back up.

Here we disagree. The national debt of the US is $23.2 trillion. And GDP $21.5 trillion.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_external_debt - US overall has 115% GDP of external debt.
That's not a strong economy, that's a bubble ready to pop at any moment.

Those who own real assets are fine. Those who just hold stocks... I really doubt FED will save the markets this time.

Edited April 23, 2020 by travsformation

[Gasmantle]

The national debt is 'make believe' to prop up a capitalist economy.

The 'debt' is fiat money that doesn't exist.

Whilst I realise this crisis is serious I do hope the world economy collapses to the point that it needs to be re-booted.

Edited April 11, 2020 by Gasmantle

[Gasmantle]

It makes me laugh when people talk of the 'national debt' - do people honestly think this is real money that can be paid off?

I can't speak for other countries but in the UK we've had a national debt since god was a boy, it grows year by year and never reduces - years of UK austerity have penalised the poor yet the debt grows. It grows because it isn't real money but a construct to ensure the wealthy stay wealthy.

Try it people - 'google' the terms 'fiat money' or 'fractional reserve banking' you'll see how we are all being conned.

I don't care if the economy goes bust, I've believed for years the system is corrupt, I don't want to see people suffer but if it takes a viral pandemic to address a failing economic model then bring it on.

No doubt I'll get a lot of negative feedback but I've said it and stand by it.

[atdlzpae]

17 minutes ago, Gasmantle said:

Whilst I realise this crisis is serious I do hope the world economy collapses to the point that it needs to be re-booted.

15 minutes ago, Patton250 said:

Great point. It’s not like they’ll be millions of people dying and suffering if the world economy crashes. But then again Bill Gates hopes we get down to 1 billion people on the earth so crashing the world economy might help us on our way right?

I also hope for a collapse of economy and I'm fairly certain we'll get it. Thankfully hoping for something doesn't make it happen, so I don't think it's in any way immoral.

Without the collapse we won't go back to true capitalism and the happy printing and borrowing will continue.

Edited April 11, 2020 by atdlzpae

[Gasmantle]

1 minute ago, atdlzpae said:

I also hope for a collapse of economy and I'm fairly certain we'll get it. 

Yea, I think capitalism has been teetering on collapse for years.

I'm not certain that Covid19 will destroy the present economic model but I do think it's a nail in the coffin and capitalism is now on borrowed time.

The world economy can't go on the way it is - if it takes a virus to sort out something that politicians have ignored for years then bring it on.

 

[mike_bike_kite]

13 minutes ago, Gasmantle said:

Try it people - 'google' the terms 'fiat money' or 'fractional reserve banking' you'll see how we are all being conned.

I'm not sure where we switched to monetary systems but I'm a little unsure why you see fractional reserve banking as being a con, it's been around for about 400 years so there's been plenty of time to introduce other systems. It just allows banks to lend money to people (for cars, mortgages new wheels etc) or to allow money to be lent to businesses that then allow them to grow and employ folk. The Ascent of Money is a really interesting book if you're into this type of subject.

[atdlzpae]

@mike_bike_kite Fractional reserve becomes corrupt when banks are bailed out. I'm personally all for real, free market fractional reserve - if the bank lends too much money, it goes bankrupt.

Why is it that if you spend too much, you lose everything... While if the bank spends too much, it gets saved with taxpayer's money? Very unfair system.
We've seen that in action in 2008, not pretty.

Edited April 11, 2020 by atdlzpae

[Gasmantle]

1 minute ago, mike_bike_kite said:

I'm not sure where we switched to monetary systems but I'm a little unsure why you see fractional reserve banking as being a con, it's been around for about 400 years so there's been plenty of time to introduce other systems. It just allows banks to lend money to people (for cars, mortgages new wheels etc) or to allow money to be lent to businesses that then allow them to grow and employ folk. The Ascent of Money is a really interesting book if you're into this type of subject.

Fractional reserve banking has been around arguably a lot longer than 400yrs.

The problem arises when the money in supply is 'fiat money' without intrinsic value and the fractional reserve system allows more of the pseudo currency into circulation.

Every country in the world has a national debt, none of those debts ever reduce - why do you think this is?

The debt idea is a smoke screen to prop up an economy that is little more than a con trick - who owes the national debt, where did it come from, who do we owe it to? The reason it grows and never gets paid is because it is a fictitious 'notional' debt.

The national debt as propped up by fractional reserve banking and fiat money does nothing but keep 99% of the workforce generating wealth for the other 1% under the guise that they are paying off a debt.

The sooner the world economy goes bust the better.

[LanghamP]

7 minutes ago, atdlzpae said:

@mike_bike_kite Fractional reserve becomes corrupt when banks are bailed out. I'm personally all for real, free market fractional reserve - if the bank lends too much money, it goes bankrupt.

Why is it that if you spend too much, you lose everything... While if the bank spends too much, it gets saved with taxpayer's money? Very unfair system.
We've seen that in action in 2008, not pretty.

Socialism for the rich, capitalism for the poor.

Financial institutions, government and private, work for the wealthy because the money flows to and through them. In contrast, if you're not a banker, financier, or insurer, there's only college loans and housing loans. As far as I am aware, there's no other way for the ordinary citizen to access government money.

[atdlzpae]

@LanghamP Oh, yeah... College loans. A rare loan you can't bankrupt on. Just an additional F!@# you from the legislators.

 

Edited April 11, 2020 by atdlzpae

[Gasmantle]

I can't speak for any other country but in the UK free market capitalism is a one way street,

Private companies seek profit and reward their shareholders when the sun shines, when it rains and things are looking bad they want taxpayer handouts. If the taxpayer bails out a failing private company they become defacto share holders who underwrite private risk but share none of the profit. Either a business survives or it doesn't, if the tax payer needs to bail out a floundering business it should be given equity or if need be buy the entire company and nationalise it.

 

 

Edited April 11, 2020 by Gasmantle

[travsformation]

1 hour ago, Gasmantle said:

I don't care if the economy goes bust, I've believed for years the system is corrupt, I don't want to see people suffer but if it takes a viral pandemic to address a failing economic model then bring it on.

The idealist in me shares your sentiment, but the realist is too aware of the fact that a) Those who suffer will be the same as always... b) Those on top always find a way to benefit (at the expense of everyone else), and always have, so c) The 99% will suffer for nothing...

Edited April 11, 2020 by travsformation

[travsformation]

1 hour ago, Gasmantle said:

The national debt is 'make believe' to prop up a capitalist economy.

The 'debt' is fiat money that doesn't exist.

Whilst I realise this crisis is serious I do hope the world economy collapses to the point that it needs to be re-booted.

Reminds me of this ol' classic....

 

Edited April 11, 2020 by travsformation

[travsformation]

And on a lighter note, @Gasmantle & @mike_bike_kite, this one's for you 

 

I'm pretty sure the Spanish corporation would be very similar to the Italian one in the example below 

 

[Gasmantle]

13 minutes ago, travsformation said:

The idealist in me shares your sentiment, but the realist is too aware of the fact that a) Those who suffer will be the same as always... b) Those on top always find a way to benefit (at the expense of everyone else), and always have, so c) The 99% will suffer for nothing...

I kinda take your point about the idealism / realism argument but I think over the last few decades with globalisation and technology that too many people are getting left behind.

My hope is that shortly what used to be viewed as idealistic will become realistic - I really do believe the current economic model is on the verge of collapse. If the 'rank and file' get organised then there should be no reason why we can't overthrow the system and build a society that benefits all.

[mike_bike_kite]

2 hours ago, travsformation said:

And on a lighter note, @Gasmantle & @mike_bike_kite, this one's for you 

Yep, made me laugh.

I'll have to read up a bit on the other stuff though...

[Toshio Uemura]

4 hours ago, travsformation said:

And on a lighter note, @Gasmantle & @mike_bike_kite, this one's for you 

 

I'm pretty sure the Spanish corporation would be very similar to the Italian one in the example below 

 

I love Kobe beef. One cow is enough. 🤣 

[travsformation]

20 hours ago, Gasmantle said:

I kinda take your point about the idealism / realism argument but I think over the last few decades with globalisation and technology that too many people are getting left behind.

My hope is that shortly what used to be viewed as idealistic will become realistic - I really do believe the current economic model is on the verge of collapse. If the 'rank and file' get organised then there should be no reason why we can't overthrow the system and build a society that benefits all.

Yeah, I know what you mean. I did some pro-bono work in the past translating articles about The Commons, P2P economics and production models, post-capitalism, social currencies, social crypto-currencies, etc., so I'm familiar (and ideologically aligned) with many of the alternatives to capitalism being theorized about (and social experiments taking place). 

I very much enjoyed reading Michel Bauwens' Peer to Peer: The Commons Manifesto, David Bollier's Think Like a Commoner and Charles Eisenstein's Sacred Economics: Money, Gift, and Society in the Age of Transition. Deep down, I share your hopes, but in my line of work, I'm privy to a lot internal corporate strategy and marketing documentation and have seen how effective large corporations are at hijacking social and grassroots movements, re-purposing their slogans for marketing campaigns and robbing them of their meaning and momentum in the process, effectively nipping them in the bud while finding a way to reinvent them for profit: think Airbnb, Uber, Deliveroo, Uber Eats, etc., which are far from the "sharing economy" that technology was meant to enable, for the benefit of all (as opposed to the capitalist/exploitative model these tech companies follow). Turn on the TV, and at least here, companies (from supermarket chains to banks and insurance companies) have been quick to start exploiting the #stayhome hashtag—which can be seen as a social solidarity phenomena—in their ads.

All the ideals and projects mentioned above still resonate deeply with me, but the world has a way of bringing one back down to Earth. The system is just too well-established and all-encompassing, and those who run/benefit from it too resourceful (financially and otherwise) not to come out on top, regardless of what happens. At the same time, it's impossible to overlook the hypocrisy (or irony, to use a gentler term) of criticizing a system that I benefit from (my EUCs, my camera gear, my phone, the laptop I'm writing this on, just to name a few), fully aware that human exploitation and environmental damage are among the hidden costs of the very tools we use to discuss and share ideas on post-capitalism, for instance.

Maybe one day I'll get fed up with it all and build myself an Earthship in the mountains or try to live out the semi-nomadic pirate utopia—the Temporary Autonomous Zone (T.A.Z.)—described by Hakim Bey (the book is a very enticing read). But for now, I've settled for making the best of things, trying to do well by those in my community and those I come in contact with (once the lockdown is lifted, I plan on doing as much pro-bono work as I can afford, to help local businesses get back on their feet), and trying to live as coherently with my values as possible, voting with my dollars, buying local produce, favouring small, family-run businesses (even if they're more expensive) and avoiding (insomuch as possible) brands and products that are harmful to the environment, wildlife, communities, workers, people, etc. 

Yet still, hope is that last thing we give up, and now is a better time than ever to take a few steps back and put things into perspective... 

 

Edited April 12, 2020 by travsformation

[atdlzpae]

11 hours ago, Gasmantle said:

I'm a hard core socialist - I have even voted for the communist party on the odd occasion that they've fielded a candidate in my constituency.

Be careful what you wish for, you just might get it... Empty shelves with insane queue was a very common occurrence back then. And corruption way worse than today.

It's been only 30 years since communism is gone... Feels like ages ago!

Edited April 19, 2020 by atdlzpae

[Gasmantle]

12 minutes ago, atdlzpae said:

Be careful what you wish for, you just might get it... Empty shelves with insane queue was a very common occurrence back then. 

We've got that now in the UK.

[atdlzpae]

27 minutes ago, Gasmantle said:

We've got that now in the UK.

Do you? Really? I'm pressing X to doubt. You haven't seen empty shelves. Not at that scale.
You may have shortages of some articles, but not completely empty stores. And that's what happened during communism in the whole Eastern Bloc.
Even during the shopping rush in Poland (11-13 march) the situation was better than during communism.

[LanghamP]

3 hours ago, atdlzpae said:

Empty shelves with insane queue was a very common occurrence back then.

The lack of money in people's pockets, along with their cars being repossessed and banks tightening their lending, will discourage long lines at stores. Simply allowing the free market to play out will reduce long lines and reshelve goods at supermarkets.

However, just giving people money creates shortages.

https://kotaku.com/nintendo-switch-shortage-can-partially-be-blamed-on-res-1842934148

The full report from Motherboard also explains that many of these resellers are using the recent stimulus checks that many in the US have received to help buy more Switch consoles and are hopeful folks with more money will be willing to pay their higher prices.

This is also the housing market in microcosm.

[Gasmantle]

4 hours ago, atdlzpae said:

Be careful what you wish for, you just might get it... Empty shelves with insane queue was a very common occurrence back then. And corruption way worse than today.

It's been only 30 years since communism is gone... Feels like ages ago!

I think looking a back at past failures and saying something can't be done stifles progress, why does the failure of a past idea say it shouldn't be tried again? Things change, the economy moves on, technology advances etc.

Once you start saying you won't try something simply because it didn't work last time you'll never progress, you need to provide evidence of why something will fail. A lot of ideas and inventions today are developments of projects that didn't work very well the first time.

Progress is built on past failures, once something fails you learn something and develop the model, eventually you arrive at a working solution

 

Edited April 19, 2020 by Gasmantle

[Patton250]

17 hours ago, Gasmantle said:

No probs, I'm a hard core socialist - I have even voted for the communist party on the odd occasion that they've fielded a candidate in my constituency.

It worked out great for Venezuela. 

[Patton250]

1 hour ago, Gasmantle said:

I think looking a back at past failures and saying something can't be done stifles progress, why does the failure of a past idea say it shouldn't be tried again? Things change, the economy moves on, technology advances etc.

Once you start saying you won't try something simply because it didn't work last time you'll never progress, you need to provide evidence of why something will fail. A lot of ideas and inventions today are developments of projects that didn't work very well the first time.

Progress is built on past failures, once something fails you learn something and develop the model, eventually you arrive at a working solution

 

We figured out in America 400 years ago that it doesn’t work. The pilgrims tried it. When the reward is equal (especially forced equal) for unequal work society will collapse. Every single time. Every time. Did I mention every time?