Coronavirus & economics: debt, capitalism socialism, you name it!

[Gasmantle]

3 minutes ago, Patton250 said:

. When the reward is equal (especially forced equal) for unequal work society will collapse. Every single time. Every time. Did I mention every time?

What is the evidence for that?

[mike_bike_kite]

9 minutes ago, Gasmantle said:

What is the evidence for that?

History?

[Gasmantle]

1 minute ago, mike_bike_kite said:

History?

If you read my earlier post you'll understand why that isn't evidence.

[mike_bike_kite]

Has communism actually worked anywhere apart from in the minds of idealists? Here in the UK we used to have a communist party but I assume it disbanded because no-one voted for them. Are you planning on bringing it back by armed insurrection? I did go travelling through large parts of the Eastern Block before the wall came down - there was a reason why everyone was climbing over the wall to come here.

[Patton250]

1 hour ago, Gasmantle said:

What is the evidence for that?

I’ll tell you what I’ll give you a good example. Let’s say you and I were hired to do a job. We had to move wheelbarrels full of dirt from one location to another. The employer was going to pay us $10 per wheel barrel load completed. At the end of the first day you completed 100 wheelbarrow loads and I completed 30. Mostly because I was loafing around and took many more breaks than you did. With capitalism the employer now owes you $1000 and he owes me $300. In socialism the employer pays us both $650. Under socialism I guarantee day number two you will not complete 100 wheelbarrow loads. 

[Gasmantle]

5 minutes ago, Patton250 said:

I’ll tell you what I’ll give you a good example. Let’s say you and I were hired to do a job. We had to move wheelbarrels full of dirt from one location to another. The employer was going to pay us $10 per wheel barrel load completed. At the end of the first day you completed 100 wheelbarrow loads and I completed 30. Mostly because I was loafing around and took many more breaks than you did. With capitalism the employer now owes you $1000 and he owes me $300. In socialism the employer pays us both $650. Under socialism I guarantee day number two you will not complete 100 wheelbarrow loads. 

Who told you that was socialism?

I don't know whether communism will work or not - I'm just asking what is your evidence that it won't.

[Patton250]

38 minutes ago, Gasmantle said:

Who told you that was socialism?

I don't know whether communism will work or not - I'm just asking what is your evidence that it won't.

Socialism is the forced equalization by an all powerful government.  It generally only gets implemented when the people have no power to stop it.

[Gasmantle]

19 minutes ago, Patton250 said:

Socialism is the forced equalization by an all powerful government.  It generally only gets implemented when the people have no power to stop it.

No it isn't.

[Patton250]

https://www.businessinsider.com/layoffs-coronavirus-less-than-half-american-workers-paycheck-wage-may-2020-4

[Gasmantle]

Let the economy collapse.

We won't get a fairer system while the masses are duped into propping up capitalism so the wealthy can reap the rewards.

[Patton250]

11 minutes ago, Gasmantle said:

Let the economy collapse.

We won't get a fairer system while the masses are duped into propping up capitalism so the wealthy can reap the rewards.

I’ll just have you know if you’re not living in a tent, using zero electricity and walking everywhere you go I consider you a massive hypocrite for criticizing capitalism

[Gasmantle]

1 hour ago, Patton250 said:

I’ll just have you know if you’re not living in a tent, using zero electricity and walking everywhere you go I consider you a massive hypocrite for criticizing capitalism

Why is that?

Incidently I am looking at going off grid and have in the past lived in a tent to escape the rat race.

[Patton250]

13 minutes ago, Gasmantle said:

Why is that?

Incidently I am looking at going off grid and have in the past lived in a tent to escape the rat race.

Because it’s innovation through capitalism that brings us all the modern day comforts we enjoy today including the device you find yourself typing on as well as the device you ride on that you are typing about. Without capitalism none of those things would’ve come about. 

[Gasmantle]

What is the evidence that technology wouldn't be here without capitalism?

Why can't a person live in a capitalist society and yet still oppose it?

[travsformation]

@Patton250 @Gasmantle Please continue this debate here so as to not derail the other thread 

[Gasmantle]

3 hours ago, travsformation said:

@Patton250 @Gasmantle Please continue this debate here so as to not derail the other thread 

Ok , no problem 

[mike_bike_kite]

15 hours ago, Gasmantle said:

What is the evidence that technology wouldn't be here without capitalism?

Why can't a person live in a capitalist society and yet still oppose it?

It's fairly easy to list the technologies that came before capitalism - fire, agriculture, metal extraction, the wheel, gunpowder and both language and numeracy. The list for technologies brought about under communism is fairly short, particularly if you remove the anything to do with alcohol or warfare. Everything else in the world around you came in under capitalism. That doesn't mean you can't oppose it, of course you can, but to say communism is a better option just suggests you've never seen it in action. That doesn't mean capitalism is great but it does seem to be the only workable option that most people would willingly live in. 

Are there really no jobs in North Yorks? is it the quality of work? the pay? house prices? could you not start your own business?

[Gasmantle]

2 hours ago, mike_bike_kite said:

It's fairly easy to list the technologies that came before capitalism - fire, agriculture, metal extraction, the wheel, gunpowder and both language and numeracy. The list for technologies brought about under communism is fairly short, particularly if you remove the anything to do with alcohol or warfare. Everything else in the world around you came in under capitalism. That doesn't mean you can't oppose it, of course you can, but to say communism is a better option just suggests you've never seen it in action. That doesn't mean capitalism is great but it does seem to be the only workable option that most people would willingly live in. 

Are there really no jobs in North Yorks? is it the quality of work? the pay? house prices? could you not start your own business?

You still haven't answered the question - what is the evidence that present technology could only have came about through capitalism?

It's all very well saying that modern technology has emerged under capitalism, I agree with that 100% but what is the evidence that it came about due to capitalism only?  If we ascribe any advances / negatives purely down to the current economic model we get nowhere - it needs to be demonstrated that the economic model is the cause. A correlation and the cause aren't the same.

I don't know whether a socialist or even a communist society would be any better than the present model but it is foolish to say something won't work without evidence supporting that claim.

[mike_bike_kite]

I don't think anyone was saying that it could only come about under capitalism, we're just saying that, given the 2 systems under discussion, capitalism will produce the technology. The explanation for why this happens was given by Paton250 14 posts up when he spoke about wheelbarrows. History provided the evidence with the Eastern block producing far less technology under communism. You can even look at what's happening in North and South Korea at the moment. But it's not just technology, I suspect most people simply prefer capitalism over communism - you just have to see which way people were moving when the wall came down. Anyway, at least on this side, there's nothing to stop you going over to the other side.

[mrelwood]

On 4/24/2020 at 11:31 PM, Patton250 said:

Because it’s innovation through capitalism that brings us all the modern day comforts we enjoy today including the device you find yourself typing on as well as the device you ride on that you are typing about. Without capitalism none of those things would’ve come about. 

I don’t believe that to be true. I’ve seen the subject touched in a few documentaries, based on which innovation is not fueled by a monetary incentive, but exactly the opposite. Thinking about my own life, the most innovative stuff I’ve done have always been without pay, and with zero chance of even turning into one. People who like to solve problems, innovate, or build gadgets etc, will do so without pay as well, as long as they have sufficient income not having to worry about survival, and time and energy to devote to their interest.

 What they don’t do by default however is cut corners in design our timetables to get to a competitive mass produced product. Which is a crucial requirement for all capitalistic products in order for them to be succesfull.

[Patton250]

1 hour ago, mrelwood said:

I don’t believe that to be true. I’ve seen the subject touched in a few documentaries, based on which innovation is not fueled by a monetary incentive, but exactly the opposite. Thinking about my own life, the most innovative stuff I’ve done have always been without pay, and with zero chance of even turning into one. People who like to solve problems, innovate, or build gadgets etc, will do so without pay as well, as long as they have sufficient income not having to worry about survival, and time and energy to devote to their interest.

 What they don’t do by default however is cut corners in design our timetables to get to a competitive mass produced product. Which is a crucial requirement for all capitalistic products in order for them to be succesfull.

I’ll be honest with you to me this is so elementary I feel uncomfortable even discussing it. I don’t mean to sound condescending but the obvious merits of capitalism combined with  freedom are really beyond argument at this point. I suppose the subject might have been worthy of debate in the 1920s before we saw the absolute destruction and the horrors of what communism brought to the poor people of Russia but now that we are post communism I really didn’t think there are very many people left that would actually argue this subject. I remember in the 80s when Ronald Reagan brought Mikal Gorbachev to one of our grocery stores and Gorbachev thought it was an elaborate set up and that there was no way our country had grocery stores like this all throughout it. I think the problem with some of you is you have become so accustomed to modern day luxuries that we’ve actually forgot what our brothers and sisters went through under dictatorships with zero free market opportunities. Capitalism unlike socialism or communism says an individual will be rewarded for things they create that have a demand and therefore these individuals will genuinely work harder to achieve better products, services and solutions so they can receive this reward. I’m not saying certain things can’t be accomplished without reward I’m just telling you it’s more likely they won’t or these accomplishments will be severely slowed down and or limited.  Gentlemen this is just common sense.

[Gasmantle]

You keep saying technology can only come about through capitalism yet you fail to provide evidence of this every time you are asked.

Edited April 26, 2020 by Gasmantle

[Patton250]

1 hour ago, Gasmantle said:

You keep saying technology can only come about through capitalism yet you fail to provide evidence of this every time you are asked.

Cellular phones

 

Of course there are millions more things but I’m not gonna waste my time anymore. This is like you asking me to prove that water is wet. 

[Gasmantle]

I'm asking what is the evidence that technology only comes about through capitalism? You said it's common sense but you don't provide evidence.

Cellular phones are a technology that has arisen during capitalism, they are not evidence that only capitalism could have produced them.

Edited April 26, 2020 by Gasmantle

[Patton250]

38 minutes ago, Gasmantle said:

I'm asking what is the evidence that technology only comes about through capitalism? You said it's common sense but you don't provide evidence.

Cellular phones are a technology that has arisen during capitalism, they are not evidence that only capitalism could have produced them.

Nobody would’ve invented cell phones if they were not going to be paid for their work. Pay comes from capitalism. I think we should probably stop this because I would take up arms and fight to my death to prevent socialism or communism from coming to my country. That’s how insane I think it is and how much I’m against it. Socialism and communism is slavery to the state. 
 

i’ll end it with this. Capitalism and free enterprise is so superior that it took only 250 years for the United States to be born and surpass all the European countries that most of our citizens came from.