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Coronavirus & economics: debt, capitalism socialism, you name it!


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Many people have created inventions or invested time and effort to do amazing things for mankind and for free. All it takes is motivation, structure and organisation then anything is possible. The problem with Capitalism is that it is driven by greed and that is what caused the 2008 financial crisis and is also why things are still messed up today. Free enterprise provides us things that otherwise might not exist, but it is also a massively inefficient use of resources. The main value in Capitalism and free enterprise is that it doesn't need anyone to organise things ... you just stand back and wait for something good or interesting to be produced.

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22 minutes ago, Patton250 said:

i’ll end it with this. Capitalism and free enterprise is so superior that it took only 250 years for the United States to be born and surpass all the European countries that most of our citizens came from. 

Surpass in what area? Health? Happiness? Wealth? I think Switzerland leads the table for average wealth per citizen. Strictly speaking though you'd want to use the median value otherwise to be more representative of the general wealth of the people - the US is way down the table for that. I saw quite a lot of poverty when I toured all round the states, from families living in tents or in the woods or in the back of a van. Another major issue was the lack of health care for many folk in low income jobs - they either just hoped they would never get ill or, if their work insurance covered them for their illness, then they knew they could never stop working. You also have to remember that a lot of Europe was completely decimated in the 2 world wars. I did find the american people very welcoming and I thought the countryside was stunning. 

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1 hour ago, Patton250 said:

i’ll end it with this. Capitalism and free enterprise is so superior that it took only 250 years for the United States to be born and surpass all the European countries that most of our citizens came from. 

One of the criteria the USA has overtaken Europe on is having a divided unequal society.

It's rampant right wing ideology that is denying it's citizens adequate national healthcare.

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52 minutes ago, mike_bike_kite said:

Surpass in what area? Health? Happiness? Wealth? I think Switzerland leads the table for average wealth per citizen. Strictly speaking though you'd want to use the median value otherwise to be more representative of the general wealth of the people - the US is way down the table for that. I saw quite a lot of poverty when I toured all round the states, from families living in tents or in the woods or in the back of a van. Another major issue was the lack of health care for many folk in low income jobs - they either just hoped they would never get ill or, if their work insurance covered them for their illness, then they knew they could never stop working. You also have to remember that a lot of Europe was completely decimated in the 2 world wars. I did find the american people very welcoming and I thought the countryside was stunning. 

At the end of the day Mike it’s really only important that you believe everything you just wrote. If you do God bless you. 

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12 minutes ago, Gasmantle said:

One of the criteria the USA has overtaken Europe on is having a divided unequal society.

It's rampant right wing ideology that is denying it's citizens adequate national healthcare.

Lol. And with that I will take absolutely nothing serious that comes from you.  You know the good news is you could probably move to North Korea right now and get a good dose of communism. Take it easy.

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1 hour ago, LanghamP said:

During this Coronavirus, we've seen capitalism versus communism/socialism.

The winner is obvious. Environmentalism.

Yeah we know the same chuckleheads that gave us the models that 2.4 million Americans are going to die of coronavirus at the same chuckleheads they tell us we have global warming. 

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@Patton250, as a moderator it is my duty is to remind you that personal attacks and insults are not tolerated at our forum.

Opinions differ, as they should. But please keep your comments aimed towards the opinions, not towards persons themselves. If you don't have anything to add to the discussion, it's best to consider wether you should go read some other thread instead.

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18 hours ago, Patton250 said:

You know the good news is you could probably move to North Korea right now and get a good dose of communism.

The problem you have is that you fall into the trap of putting labels on things (Communism, Capitalism, Socialism, Marxism, etc) and then dismissing them based of history. What we need is to do more of the things that are good for society and less of the things that are bad and to learn and adapt as we go. There is good and bad in every system, so keep the good and throw out the bad and don't pigeonhole things by fixating on labels.

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Guys I keep getting notifications about this thread. I thought I had opted out and I will try again. I am absolutely not going to respond to any of this nonsense on this subject.  I have not read any posts that came after my last post before this one nor will I. 

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35 minutes ago, Patton250 said:

Guys I keep getting notifications about this thread. I thought I had opted out and I will try again.

2020-04-27-20-22-41-Coronavirus-economic

 

After marking "do not send me any notifications", make sure you click on "update preferences"

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2 hours ago, Patton250 said:

I have not read any posts that came after my last post before this one nor will I. 

I don’t think anybody believes that :whistling:

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4 hours ago, Patton250 said:

Guys I keep getting notifications about this thread. I thought I had opted out and I will try again. I am absolutely not going to respond to any of this nonsense on this subject.  I have not read any posts that came after my last post before this one nor will I. 

Looking at how many wheels you own you most likely fall into the "I'm doing alright, so I could care less about how anyone else is doing" category. Hence your strong pro capitalism viewpoint. Just a guess.:popcorn:

Edited by Nic
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16 minutes ago, Nic said:

Looking at how many wheels you own you most likely fall into the "I'm doing alright, so I could care less about how anyone else is doing" category. Hence your strong pro capitalism viewpoint. Just a guess.:popcorn:

Yea I agree.

Having said that in the ultra capitalist USA with no adequate state healthcare it only takes a bout of serious illness and before long you can be selling everything including your house to pay the healthcare bill. ;)

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39 minutes ago, Gasmantle said:

Yea I agree.

Having said that in the ultra capitalist USA with no adequate state healthcare it only takes a bout of serious illness and before long you can be selling everything including your house to pay the healthcare bill. ;)

While that might be true, let's try to keep this constructive...that sounded awfully close to gloating at others' misfortune (don't mean to be harsh, hope it doesn't come through as such).

The NHS is also a mess, and Spanish healthcare has suffered cuts and privatization to the point being a healthcare professional, which used to be well-paid jobs, are now considered precarious, underpaid jobs. And while the media keeps touting the word heroes to shift the conversation towards emotional, tear-inducing feelings of pride, which seem to do an excellent job at cancelling out rational thought, doctors keep correcting that they don't want to be viewed as heroes, but are simply doing their job, and rather than applause they'd like to return to their pre-2008 salaries and working conditions...My point being, we're just a few steps behind the US in terms of cannibalistic capitalism but headed in the same direction.

To circle back to the subject of coronavirus, I have a feeling that we're looking through the wrong end of the telescope: The pandemic isn't to blame, but the lack of adequate healthcare...

 

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3 hours ago, travsformation said:

The NHS is also a mess, and Spanish healthcare has suffered cuts and privatization to the point being a healthcare professional, which used to be well-paid jobs, are now considered precarious, underpaid jobs.

The US healthcare system is different, with much worse outcomes.

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2020/04/how-much-does-it-cost-to-get-covid-19/610813/

Dr Howard Foreman estimates $20,000 for a covid-19 is the very low limit, with $250,000 as average for a short stay with an ICU + ventilator. A three week stay would be much more expensive but expected for serious but survivable cases.

He also thinks that (and when a Yale business graduate says thinks, that means he knows) over the next 18 months there will be an avalanche of insolvent hospitals closing shop.

By the way, hospitals, healthcare, and pharmaceutical companies are just terrible to the local economy because that means there's a bunch of sick people that need fixing. A lot of hospitals relative to the population is a bad thing; think amputees in a war zone. Business might be brisk but that's a loss.

I'm guessing the Republican Party, lead by Trump, is going down this weird Socialist rabbit hole (they've taken money from the rich to give to the poor), and will probably drop Medicare age limits down to zero.

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