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3euc

Riding techniques: Fight! (Split from Kingsong 16X: pedal dipping thread)

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I often see improper riding techniques--riders who crouch forward or press on their toes to accelerate, when this is not how EUCs are designed to operate. Pedal dipping more likely comes from a rider mishandling their EUC.

I have a King Song 18XL and have never experienced pedal dipping even once at any speed. On any EUC, I am able to reach top speed without crouching, without pressing on my toes, and without pushing my wheel out from under me. Acceleration comes from a shift in center of gravity, which is totally different. Anyone thinking they are all one in the same does not understand the dynamics of an EUC.

Take a look at my videos. You won't see a single instance of pedal dipping on any EUC I've ever ridden, going back to 2015. Never been an issue for me.

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, 3euc said:

I often see improper riding techniques--riders who crouch forward or press on their toes to accelerate, when this is not how EUCs are designed to operate. Pedal dipping more likely comes from a rider mishandling their EUC.

I have a King Song 18XL and have never experienced pedal dipping even once at any speed. On any EUC, I am able to reach top speed without crouching, without pressing on my toes, and without pushing my wheel out from under me. Acceleration comes from a shift in center of gravity, which is totally different. Anyone thinking they are all one in the same does not understand the dynamics of an EUC.

Take a look at my videos. You won't see a single instance of pedal dipping on any EUC I've ever ridden, going back to 2015. Never been an issue for me.

Crouching is not wrong. Or in a way yes dont fully crouch. But dont stand like a stick. For offroading bending the knees helps a lot. But for general riding you dont need to bend them too much. About pushing with the toes. If your feet are centered on the pedals if you tip your center of gravity forwards the weight will go on your toes and front foot. There is no way around it. It's like saying you want to tip over something without applying force. You can't

Edited by Shad0z

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@Shad0z I always ride with loose knees, slightly bent, sometimes more than usual, if it's especially bumpy. But I don't crouch, which contributes nothing and only diminishes control.

If done properly, there is first a shift in center of gravity, followed by pressure on the toes, so you are correct that weight will go on your toes and front foot.

Different than that, I am talking about people pressing on their toes first, which can wiggle or dip the pedal, making it seem like something is happening faster or easier, but does not result in acceleration as effective as doing it correctly.

It starts with a center of gravity shift.

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2 minutes ago, 3euc said:

It starts with a center of gravity shift

Yes, I can't describe it properly either, but that's how I think I do too. Slight weight shift and not Michael Jackson style followed by faceplant. :D

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1 hour ago, 3euc said:

I always ride with loose knees, slightly bent, sometimes more than usual, if it's especially bumpy. But I don't crouch, which contributes nothing and only diminishes control.

You are wrong. Hip hinging is a superior method for controlling acceleration and deceleration. It’s like hydraulic brakes; you have much finer modulation vs disc brakes /slightly bent knees. In a nutshell, The lower your center of gravity (by crouching) the better control. 

9915BCFB-182F-48D1-BBDB-574264C49182.jpeg

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8 minutes ago, Darrell Wesh said:

You are wrong. Hip hinging is a superior method for controlling acceleration and deceleration. It’s like hydraulic brakes; you have much finer modulation vs disc brakes /slightly bent knees. In a nutshell, The lower your center of gravity (by crouching) the better control. 

I’ve been wondering about that for braking. For some reason I have smoother straight line braking if I straighten up and lean back. I haven’t figured out how to crouch brake without wobbling yet.

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7 minutes ago, chrisjunlee said:

I’ve been wondering about that for braking. For some reason I have smoother straight line braking if I straighten up and lean back. I haven’t figured out how to crouch brake without wobbling yet.

The most common mistake is the same one people make when squatting; their knees cave in and try to squeeze. By actively abducting the thighs(spreading apart) you have greater stability which results in less to no wobble. This is also a strength issue as well. 

By all means it’s not necessary to “crouch” for accelerations and decelerations. It doesn’t accelerate you faster or decelerate you better. Just understand the finer control it gives you. Much like hydraulic brakes vs disc brakes, disc brakes can lock the wheels so hydraulic isn’t necessarily stronger, just more control over how hard or little you want to brake.

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21 minutes ago, Darrell Wesh said:

Hip hinging is a superior method for controlling acceleration and deceleration. It’s like hydraulic brakes; you have much finer modulation vs disc brakes /slightly bent knees. In a nutshell, The lower your center of gravity (by crouching) the better control. 

I can only agree with that. My hard braking is also better if I crouch down further. Especially with the 16X the wobbling can be avoided so excellently. What also works very well is, if you make fast small mini curves while braking, thus left right left right (unfortunately I cannot describe it correctly due to my bad English). Or a bigger curve in only one direction (like the first part of a hockey stop) if there is enough space. At least it wobbles faster if you brake evenly hard and then stand stiffly straight. At least for me.

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5 hours ago, 3euc said:

@Shad0z I always ride with loose knees, slightly bent, sometimes more than usual, if it's especially bumpy. But I don't crouch, which contributes nothing and only diminishes control.

If done properly, there is first a shift in center of gravity, followed by pressure on the toes, so you are correct that weight will go on your toes and front foot.

Different than that, I am talking about people pressing on their toes first, which can wiggle or dip the pedal, making it seem like something is happening faster or easier, but does not result in acceleration as effective as doing it correctly.

It starts with a center of gravity shift.

depends. bending the knees and pushing forward is for sure better than just simply throwing all your weight forwards, because in both cases you are tilting it, causing an acceleration. but when throwing all your weight forwards you put more stress on it

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4 hours ago, chrisjunlee said:

For some reason I have smoother straight line braking if I straighten up and lean back. I haven’t figured out how to crouch brake without wobbling yet.

First correct observation I've read from you. The reason you can't crouch brake without wobble is because EUCs aren't intended to be ridden while crouched--no self-balancing device is, in fact. Bending the knees is essential, a lot if necessary, but pitching the body forward, which turns the position into a crouch, is detrimental to control. Both braking and acceleration should be done with straight posture.

You are a self-taught EUC rider, like many. You've done well in the short time you've been riding and you clearly have some ability. But, like many, you have developed your own habits and theories that aren't optimal or are plain wrong. Sure, you can ride--I've watched your videos, but you are nonetheless missing a thorough understanding of what propels an EUC. You do not know how to shift your center of gravity forward properly. Any knowledgeable EUC rider can study your videos and is likely to reach the same conclusion. You are pushing the wheel out from under you and punching down with your toes, flexing your knees the drive them forward--this is not the right way how make an EUC move, but is a great way to destabilize both you and the EUC. Instead, apply a center of gravity shift forward with your whole body. Stop using your feet and knees first.

I see from responses here others who are misguided in how to operate an EUC--thinking that pushing on the feet, crouching, or bending the knees to accelerate are correct riding techniques. They are not. Bending ones knees and crouching are different--crouching involves pitching forward, back bent at the waist. However, the back should remain straight. Watch the guys riding who designed them. Unless there's extremely unusual terrain that might require momentary contorting, they always have straight posture. Look at the little diagrams that are typically stuck to your EUC upon arrival, or in the manual, picturing straight posture as correct, anything else not. Many also think the pinnacle of "skill" is going fast, when there is so much more to knowing the basics.

I can't respond to each inaccuracy, because it will be endless trying to convince riders with bad habits that anything they're doing could be improved. But I do offer professional EUC training in Los Angeles for anyone who wants to learn how to do it right.

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15 minutes ago, Darrell Wesh said:

I don’t think anyone will go because you have no idea what you’re talking about. 

There is a reason why the best riders are always “crouching” to accelerate (see chooch tech or even Tishawn). 

You don’t have a clue. It’s not even about only acceleration, it’s about putting your body in a position to stay on the wheel. Tip forward on your toes while standing straight and you lose your balance. Your center of gravity is too tall and thus shifting too far forward too quickly. In order to have finer control you lower your center of gravity first before tipping forward. 

But finer control is only part of the reason you lower your center of gravity aka “crouch”. Stability is the other reason. When you tip forward to accelerate like all the cute diagrams tell you to, you become much more unbalanced.

Any bump or pothole in your way that you might accidentally hit while in this precarious falling forward posture could cause you to fall. Lowering the center of gravity always gives better balance and thus allows you to not only absorb this potential shock but be better balanced to cope with staying on the wheel. 

The reason people wobble is because it takes an enormous amount of strength to stay in a deep hinge position while simultaneously moving forward on the toes to accelerate or back to decelerate. Not many people can hold that position for long and as your muscles tire they create perturbations the wheel feels as wobble. 

Being trained by a professional will be the best thing you've ever done for your EUC skill development.

You're right and wrong--you've got a mixture of understanding. Again, crouching forward is pitching your head and upper body forward, bending at the waist. Not a correct riding posture, despite some experienced, known riders doing it. Popular doesn't mean correct. Perhaps they do it because bending at the back is an easier way to lower one's center of gravity. Bending at the knees requires a lot of sustained lower body strength, more comparable to skiing.

Lowering one's center of gravity is fine and required to varying degrees. I do it myself on rough terrain or bumps, but I do it by bending my knees, not by putting my body mass over my knees.

Watch world class skiers on moguls. Notice how they have straight posture, but their knees are loose and can deeply flex--this is the way to handle tough terrain, not by pitching forward.

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11 minutes ago, 3euc said:

Watch world class skiers on moguls. Notice how they have straight posture, but their knees are loose and can deeply flex--this is the way to handle tough terrain, not by pitching forward.

🤦🏾‍♂️Ummm... how are you supposed to accelerate if you aren’t pitching forward? This isn’t skiing. You’re shifting body weight to move forward not just along for the downhill ride. 

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58 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

A lot of wisdom in this post.

Except for photo-ops, when I accelerate I also do more of a crouching motion. Seems intuitive to do so because it just feels safer. But I guess maybe it's not as intuitive as I think :confused1:

And the wobbles from tired muscles is so true. After some strenuous riding I'm always dealing with fighting the wobbles when going down hill. When I'm fresh at the beginning of a ride, wobbles are minimal. Not so much at the end of the day.

I really need to start back up on squat exercises to build up my quads again, or as much as I can at my age.

Old retired guys, need to do more squats.

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5 hours ago, Darrell Wesh said:

Ummm... how are you supposed to accelerate if you aren’t pitching forward? This isn’t skiing. You’re shifting body weight to move forward not just along for the downhill ride. 

Like skiing, there is very little that has to be done to propel an EUC--if you're doing it right. As a skier, I understand the similarities. If you're not a skier, it won't mean as much to you. The technique of lunging forward on an EUC to gain a fraction of a second in accelerating pushes the balance limits of any EUC and in the long run doesn't add up to much. To me, not worth the risk at all.

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, 3euc said:

Proof that my Kung Fu is stronger is that I have been riding more than 15 times longer than you, but have had no major falls or injuries, no wrecked wheels. And I've never had a wheel cut out on me while riding, having ridden most models from all major makers. I have 100 videos of me riding, spanning four years. Show me once where I crouch forward to achieve top speed. Show me where my posture isn't straight, even while off road. You won't find it, because it's not the right way to ride. If you prefer to press your toes, crouch, lunge, hunch, throw your knees forward, and lurch around, then go for it, but you may continue to experience issues as a result. It's not the EUC's fault though, it's you.

Ok. This guy is trolling for sure. It's more subtle and not as funny as umbrella Guy though.

Edited by chrisjunlee

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1 minute ago, Darrell Wesh said:

Just watched a couple of your videos. 

Congrats, your riding style is textbook. But that textbook form was created when EUC’s were only strong enough to travel south of 10mph. It’s outdated now. 

Wheels are strong enough today to handle more aggressive riding form. More playful riding form. Wheels have gotten to the point where modifications are added on to be able to harness the gobs of power now present (kuji pads, XL pedals, eucguy powerpads etc).

You will never realize the full potential of modern wheels with your Segway inspired technique (and please don’t misinterpret that as pushing the wheel to the limits and cutting out). And that’s okay; just don’t try to lecture everyone about your proper ancient 2015 riding form on wheels that are quadruple the power of the past. 

Thanks, yes, my riding is textbook. It was back in 2015, it still is in 2019. If you caught one of my older videos, of course I would be on an older EUC (which topped out at closer to 15 MPH, not "south of 10")--and yes, they were comparatively slow back then. However, my recent three EUCs are a GotWay MSX 100V, Ninebot Z10, and King Song 18XL. While I haven't taken the time to make videos of every single EUC I've ever owned, they all get ridden in the same way--textbook, because that's the right way. I achieve maximum speed, with maximum control, yet maximum safety. Perhaps I'm mistaken, but you seem to be defending bad form. If you want to pretend that by being wild and edgy with bad form you'll somehow be a better rider, that's certainly your prerogative. Bad form leads to falls and failures. I prefer to stay in one piece.

I don't normally comment on anyone's riding style, unless it's invited. chrisjunlee created this topic and included a video and picture of his issue, looking for responses. Anyone who can't handle the truth, shouldn't be posting videos and inviting feedback. I was under the mistaken impression he wanted some constructive commentary. Apparently, he just wanted people to sympathize with his issues.

By the way, I don't see any videos of you, so I can't comment on your riding style. If you want me to critique your riding style, post a video and let me know. I'll be happy to take a look and give you some honest commentary. My goal here isn't to insult anyone's delicate ego, but to make them a better rider. It begins with acknowledging that maybe you don't know everything about EUC riding, particularly since it's primarily a self-taught skill, often by people who have little or no prior experience with self-balancing devices.

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, 3euc said:

trolololo

Please stop trolling in this thread. Start your own.

Edited by chrisjunlee

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1 minute ago, chrisjunlee said:

Please stop trolling in this thread. Start your own.

I spoke my piece a long time ago. I wasn't really planning on anything beyond one post.

But I keep getting brought back in here to reply to others. If someone engages me, I will try to reply. Otherwise, a forum wouldn't work.

Regardless, I'm hopeful that something I said benefited someone somewhere.

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16 minutes ago, Darrell Wesh said:

Its amazing that you can truly think that one pose can do it all; handle high speeds, handle gravel, handle sharp turns, brake hard, slalom in traffic. 

Exactly. His skillset is a subset of our skills. I upright lean when leisurely riding at very low speeds (without a helmet, between buildings). Yet that technique is all he has to offer.

inb4 he redefines your turns to be too sharp, your braking to be too hard, your slaloming to be not what the wheel was designed to do.

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