Riding techniques: Fight! (Split from Kingsong 16X: pedal dipping thread)

[Planemo]

31 minutes ago, Darrell Wesh said:

And that’s precisely why your textbook style makes you an average rider. You aren’t wild and edgy. You don’t take risks. So you never learn the potential of your wheels. You only mastered one pose. There are many other poses you can contort your body into to achieve ultimate control of your wheel for specific scenarios. But since you don’t want to dabble in risk, and break your one mastered pose, your control of your wheel is nothing impressive.  

Your comment about avoiding failure is exactly why you’re average. Think about any great athlete, inventor, entrepreneur, actor. What do they all have in common? They’ve failed. Over and over. While I’m not advocating that you should have fallen numerous times on an EUC!- I am saying that you should stray out of your comfort zone to become better. Slalom a little more crazy. Accelerate a little harder. Don’t be afraid to put your body in different positions to grant more leverage, stability, balance. 

Its amazing that you can truly think that one pose can do it all; handle high speeds, handle gravel, handle sharp turns, brake hard, slalom in traffic. 

I would have to agree with this.

I would add that whilst the 'general' method of riding an EUC is fundamentally the same, there is more than one way to skin a cat. There are many, very skilled riders out there who all use very different postures. To say that one (or more of them) is wrong because their posture isn't 'textbook' is somewhat insulting I feel. Taking just one example - Chooch - who I presume 3euc would say has very incorrect posture as he has a very pronounced crouch - would, I would wager, ride rings around most riders, on any wheel, at any time of day. Without breaking a sweat and without crashing.

[3euc]

11 hours ago, Darrell Wesh said:

And that’s precisely why your textbook style makes you an average rider. You aren’t wild and edgy. You don’t take risks. So you never learn the potential of your wheels. You only mastered one pose. There are many other poses you can contort your body into to achieve ultimate control of your wheel for specific scenarios. But since you don’t want to dabble in risk, and break your one mastered pose, your control of your wheel is nothing impressive.  

Your comment about avoiding failure is exactly why you’re average. Think about any great athlete, inventor, entrepreneur, actor. What do they all have in common? They’ve failed. Over and over. While I’m not advocating that you should have fallen numerous times on an EUC!- I am saying that you should stray out of your comfort zone to become better. Slalom a little more crazy. Accelerate a little harder. Don’t be afraid to put your body in different positions to grant more leverage, stability, balance. 

Its amazing that you can truly think that one pose can do it all; handle high speeds, handle gravel, handle sharp turns, brake hard, slalom in traffic. 

Beautiful, inspirational words for real newbies to aspire, with appropriate caution. However, I am one of the most seasoned riders on the forum, despite being relatively new to the forum itself. I have done and do all of these things already, but not necessarily on camera. I would argue that my skills shown in my videos make me at least an above average rider, but you're right--I am not showing wild and edgy riding in them. Yet I am rock solid, comfortable, hitting maximum speeds, with zero wobble. I never proclaimed I was the best rider in the world. I never indicated there would be anything but proper riding techniques shown, as you have correctly observed as, "textbook." Since I teach EUC newbies, I am more interested in showing the textbook aspect of riding--you know, setting a good example. Everyone has to start somewhere--you can't start out being wild and edgy. It should begin with a proper understanding of the dynamics. Once the basics are mastered, where it grows from there is up to each individual rider. Every new rider should master textbook first, before going off to be wild and edgy. If everyone began trying to ride like Kuji, we'd have nothing but EUC riders in the ER.

My one pose, as you call it, which has served me well, is a display of correct form and yes, it can be applied to just about every surface and every move--watch my videos, and you'll see it deftly demonstrated, although I have left out traffic slalom. You are assuming that the videos I have chosen to share publicly are all I've got. Nope. What I have shared is anything I have cleared to be public. And most of the time, I ride without bringing a camera. EUCs are in a legal gray area and I don't want to give anyone undue reason to add any restrictions. I'd rather it stayed gray instead of going red. I doubt it'll ever been green, that is, embraced as being completely legal. So, The first rule of Fight Club is: You do not talk about Fight Club. People who are sharing their wild and edgy (and clearly illegal) riding online are only damaging the sport's future. I am trying not to be one of those people. It's not easy, but I'm trying.

It appears you've never shot a video while riding, at least none you've shared. So perhaps you don't know that trying to video oneself while riding is a bit awkward and limiting, carrying around a camera on a stick, holding an arm extended with it steady, and paying attention to where it's positioned--it's very distracting, which is why haven't even bothered to shoot any video for the past six months or so. My videoing began as snippets to privately capture moments to remind myself where I was, then later I went to a longer format and 360° and shared them all online, because I thought it might lead to others gaining an interest. Can't say I'll continue doing any more videos, because it all detracts from riding.

You misunderstood something I said earlier. When I said, "Bad form leads to falls and failures," I meant failures of your EUC by going beyond its parameters, not the failure of the rider. I also consider it bad form to not know your wheel's limits.

Speaking of great athletes and also world class musicians--what do they have in common? They've got a coach. The coach doesn't have to be the best at the skill they're teaching, but it helps to have firsthand knowledge. It's why many athletic coaches are former athletes and why most music coaches are musicians themselves. This is where I come in--I can teach a newbie how to ride, beginning with the fundamentals of how to operate a self-balancing device, a skill that escapes even experienced EUC riders.

[chrisjunlee]

1 hour ago, 3euc said:

Speaking of great athletes and also world class musicians--what do they have in common? They've got a coach. The coach doesn't have to be the best at the skill they're teaching, but it helps to have firsthand knowledge. It's why many athletic coaches are former athletes and why most music coaches are musicians themselves. This is where I come in--I can teach a newbie how to ride, beginning with the fundamentals of how to operate a self-balancing device, a skill that escapes even experienced EUC riders.

Ah. Ok, now things are making sense.

This guy is like a 2 week certified personal trainer: he’s not interested in helping, but staunchly promoting his dogma like a CrossFit coach. 

His arguments boil down to “my way is the right way because my form is correct”, aka circular reasoning. And he’s made no effort to find a middle ground. His ulterior motive is self promotion of his coaching services.

That is worse than trolling IMHO.

Edited October 8, 2019 by chrisjunlee

[Planemo]

With respect, it sounds very much like you are back peddling.

To me (and I believe others), you certainly, at the very least, insinuated that there was only one correct posture (no leaning at the waist), and reinforced this by suggesting that those who crouch (and other postures) as having bad form.

Now you are saying that what you meant by 'bad form' was failure of the EUC by going beyond its parameters.

You now also state that your 'form' is applicable to everyone that has to start somewhere, i.e. newbies. This I agree with, but that isnt what you were saying.

The rest of your post just reads as if you are bigging yourself up.

I think you would find that Chooch could be one of the best 'coaches' out there despite (according to you) his poor form. I guess he chooses not to. At least he doesnt have the front to claim his form is the bible on how ro ride eucs.

With that, I'm out, as I am no longer sure of what you are saying or where you are trying to go with it.

Edit: just to be clear my response was in relation to 3euc not chrisjunlee who got his reply in whilst I was typing

Edited October 8, 2019 by Planemo

[chrisjunlee]

Mods, could we split this thread please?

Now that I know this guy isn’t trolling, I would like the discussion to take place in another topic.

Edited October 8, 2019 by chrisjunlee

[3euc]

29 minutes ago, chrisjunlee said:

Ah. Ok, now things are making sense.

This guy is like a 2 week certified personal trainer: he’s not interested in helping, but staunchly promoting his dogma like a CrossFit coach. 

His arguments boil down to “my way is the right way because my form is correct”, aka circular reasoning. And he’s made no effort to find a middle ground. His ulterior motive is self promotion of his coaching services.

That is worse than trolling IMHO.

Not quite, Sherlock. You aren't reading my posts very carefully, if that is your summary of why I'm here and what I've been saying. And what I am about is incredibly transparent--it's in my signature on every one of my posts! I've got to say, it's funny that a total newbie is trying to school me on anything related to EUCs.

You might try being more hospitable to your guests--you're the host here, this is your topic, which would have dried up pages ago had I not jumped in. If you had wanted it to die, you could have just asked me to ignore the responses and I would have moved on a lot sooner.

But yes, getting back to your claim of an anomaly, which I observed as you simply flicking your ankles, and you not understanding there would obviously be a reaction to it. That is why I joined this topic in the first place. My position on that stands: action, meet reaction. It's not something I've ever experienced, because I don't pump my ankles while riding. Won't happen on a GotWay, because they're super stiff. Will happen on a King Song, which has more give. If you think your wheel is defective, send it in for repair immediately. My guess is they will find nothing wrong with it.

[3euc]

14 hours ago, chrisjunlee said:

Exactly. His skillset is a subset of our skills. I upright lean when leisurely riding at very low speeds (without a helmet, between buildings). Yet that technique is all he has to offer.

inb4 he redefines your turns to be too sharp, your braking to be too hard, your slaloming to be not what the wheel was designed to do.

I ride upright when I'm cruising at top speed, because I'm totally comfortable. People who are concerned about falling are more likely to crouch over. I'm confident in my abilities, so I don't feel the need to lower my center of gravity or crouch at such time. If the terrain is rough, that might change, but by bending my knees, not bending with my back.

There is no such thing as turning too sharp, braking too hard, or aggressive slalom, if it's within the parameters of your wheel and you can continue to stay on it. When you're on the ground, then it was a little too much.

[chrisjunlee]

17 minutes ago, 3euc said:

But yes, getting back to your claim of an anomaly, which I observed as you simply flicking your ankles, and you not understanding there would obviously be a reaction to it.

I do understand there would be a reaction to it. That is why I'm doing it.

Do you understand the purpose of why I do it? If so, please explain. Let's start there.

[chrisjunlee]

I find it ironic you're from the upright-is-truth church, yet criticizing the purest demonstration of uprightness: I'm literally 90 degrees upright, applying pressure with my ankles! Meanwhile you need to lean?! Blasphemy!

I guess that makes me your Jesus.

Edited October 8, 2019 by chrisjunlee

[meepmeepmayer]

1 hour ago, chrisjunlee said:

Mods, could we split this thread please?

Done (it wasn't fun). Feel free to change the tiltle or suggest a better title and I will change it. I couldn't come up with a better name.

[3euc]

15 hours ago, Planemo said:

There are many, very skilled riders out there who all use very different postures. To say that one (or more of them) is wrong because their posture isn't 'textbook' is somewhat insulting I feel. Taking just one example - Chooch - who I presume 3euc would say has very incorrect posture as he has a very pronounced crouch - would, I would wager, ride rings around most riders, on any wheel, at any time of day. Without breaking a sweat and without crashing.

 

1 hour ago, Planemo said:

With respect, it sounds very much like you are back peddling.

Now you are saying that what you meant by 'bad form' was failure of the EUC by going beyond its parameters.

I think you would find that Chooch could be one of the best 'coaches' out there despite (according to you) his poor form. I guess he chooses not to. At least he doesnt have the front to claim his form is the bible on how ro ride eucs.

I think there is some confusion here--the term, "bad form," doesn't mean someone is a bad rider. It just means not riding what we've termed here as "textbook." I later said I also considered it bad form to not know a wheel's limitations. I wasn't switching definitions, but using the same words, with a different meaning. The first application is literally about positioning, the second refers to a lack of knowledge.

I love Chooch! Now, there is someone who rides wild and edgy, loads of fun to watch, with plenty of video proof. However, being great at something doesn't necessarily make someone a great teacher. Chooch may have come out of the womb with a little wheel attached to his feet, so I imagine it would be difficult for him to patiently explain the fundamentals to a newbie. There's no question Chooch is an amazing rider, but you're right, looking strictly at his form, it's not textbook. Nothing wrong with that, it just isn't. But it works for him and that's what counts most. Let's be realistic--a newbie cannot be taught how to ride like Chooch. A newbie could learn the basics first and someday, with lots and lots of practice, maybe develop a style similar to him, but Chooch's style is his own. As is Tishawn's, which works for him. But again, no one can be taught these styles out of the box.

I am not at all saying there is one way to ride an EUC. Clearly there are many examples of various styles and talents. What I am saying is that at its most fundamental level, there is a textbook style where it should begin. Some will carry only something like that style forward, others will mold it into their own unique style and go a totally different direction with it. As long as you enjoy it and stay reasonably safe, there are no limits!

[Darrell Wesh]

12 minutes ago, 3euc said:

I think there is some confusion here--the term, "bad form," doesn't mean someone is a bad rider. It just means not riding what we've termed here as "textbook."

This is true. For example, In track and field many athletes run with poor form but are excellent in their event.

But remember that the textbook form I hailed you as representing is from an outdated textbook.  Much like any sport, the technique evolves. We can put “2015” in front of your textbook form phrases from now on so as to not confuse any one else. 

 

12 minutes ago, 3euc said:

Let's be realistic--a newbie cannot be taught how to ride like Chooch. A newbie could learn the basics first and someday, with lots and lots of practice, maybe develop a style similar to him,

“Lots and lots of practice” pretty much means his technique is advanced because it’s not easily attainable. Why do you think it is that your “2015 textbook” form does not require the same level of dedication and practice?

If it’s harder to emulate, it’s usually because it’s more advanced and thus superior. 

Edited October 8, 2019 by Darrell Wesh

[3euc]

56 minutes ago, chrisjunlee said:

I find it ironic you're from the upright-is-truth church, yet criticizing the purest demonstration of uprightness: I'm literally 90 degrees upright, applying pressure with my ankles! Meanwhile you need to lean?! Blasphemy!

I guess that makes me your Jesus.

Original art? Bonus points! You are too upright! And that's coming from me, Mr. Upright. You won't lean forward at all with your whole body to shift your center of gravity forward. Instead, you have this technique I've never seen before of flexing your ankles to push on your toes to move at slower speeds, or bending over forward to push even harder on your toes to reach faster speeds. That's what I'm seeing in your videos, anyway. It's why you discovered the play in the pedals, which most people never do, because most people don't flex their ankles to press on their toes.

Try leaning forward with your whole body, while maintaining straight posture, similar to how you begin to walk forward.

[chrisjunlee]

59 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Done (it wasn't fun). Feel free to change the tiltle or suggest a better title and I will change it. I couldn't come up with a better name.

ily <3 here's your cookie 🍪

[3euc]

1 hour ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Done (it wasn't fun). Feel free to change the tiltle or suggest a better title and I will change it. I couldn't come up with a better name.

Thanks, Mod. Although, I think by doing so you killed the other topic and makes this whole thread harder to follow. It was already getting confusing enough!

[LanghamP]

@Darrell WeshWesh mentioned modern wheels being so much more powerful than previous generation wheels. With powerful wheels, does the posture matter much?

When crashing, I do notice being crouched affords you some extra time, while being straight you don't have much ability to catch your fall. I'd guess the off roaders crouch a lot more than the strictly pavement users just because of that reason.

Yet everyone crouches to a certain extent. Yeah, maybe not all the time of smooth pavement, but 100% of riders I've seen crouch like cats when going over things like speed bumps. Also they put up their arms and wave them around.

I recently saw a criterion race (bicyclist on a short street course), and I was surprised to see all different forms of male shapes. Some were very tall with little muscle, others were short, and even the body fat percentage differed greatly. I'm guessing all were pretty effective if they were there. Speed counts over style.

Do you crash well? Do you have your wobbles under control? Are you pretty fast around obstacles? Can you change direction easily? Can you brake well, and more importantly do you land fine when you mess up when braking goes wrong?

If you can do all these things, who cares how ugly your riding is. If it's effective then it's a good riding style. Demeaning others because their riding style differs from yours just means you haven't scientifically proved your riding style works better.

I'd wager a guess the riders that go to EUC competitions don't criticize each other, especially if the guy with <insert riding style> is faster through a timed course. You don't get points for looking good in the NBA, you get points by scoring. Same with EUCs. 

[Matthieu Thegrey]

Posture matters a lot, and @Darrell Wesh just explained it better than i could: proper capacity to lower the gravity center gives A LOT of improvements on braking stability and control. But hey guys it's more a sport

[3euc]

8 minutes ago, Darrell Wesh said:

But remember that the textbook form I hailed you as representing is from an outdated textbook.  Much like any sport, the technique evolves. We can put “2015” in front of your textbook form phrases from now on so as to not confuse any one else. 

“Lots and lots of practice” pretty much means his technique is advanced because it’s not easily attainable. Why do you think it is that your “2015 textbook” form does not require the same level of dedication and practice?

If it’s harder to emulate, it’s usually because it’s more advanced and thus superior. 

True, I first learned to ride an EUC in 2015, making me an EUC old timer, but learning textbook style applies to any newbie going forward. It is not outdated in the slightest.

It's the EUCs that have evolved greatly, but their physics has remained exactly the same, making a newbie in 2015 the same as a newbie today. No one starts out by going 30 MPH. It begins with barely going 3 MPH. Same then, same now. Do you have a way for a newbie today to learn that would be any different than in 2015? If so, I'd be curious to hear about it.

Anyone who can't master the basics shouldn't be riding at the higher speeds, or getting wild and edgy. Walk first, then run. That's my point--it's best started with textbook, then go crazy.

Being harder to emulate does not necessarily mean more advanced or superior, just maybe different than the norm. Case in point, Elaine's dance. I wouldn't call it advanced or superior.

It occurs to me that I'm discussing this with a ghost, because I haven't seen a single second of you in motion, while I have 100 videos of me on YouTube. I have no idea what your skill level is or how you ride, or what the basis is for your apparent expertise. Why not throw up some videos for others to share? Perhaps in a video, you can demonstrate this new 2019 non-textbook learning technique that is somehow different than it was in 2015.

[chrisjunlee]

On 10/7/2019 at 1:34 AM, 3euc said:

I often see improper riding techniques--riders who crouch forward or press on their toes to accelerate, when this is not how EUCs are designed to operate.

Point 1: EUCs are designed to operate from gyro self-leveling. The wheel wants to stay upright in the event of a disturbing disleveling force. The users are given pedals as the interface to provide that disleveling force. How you manage to provide that force does not matter.

On 10/7/2019 at 1:34 AM, 3euc said:

I have a King Song 18XL and have never experienced pedal dipping even once at any speed.

Point 2: Pedal dipping occurs when you're nearing the limits of the wheel. If you're well under it, it means one of 2 things:

• you're providing a force greater than the wheel's balancing can provide for that given speed
• you're riding fast enough for the back-EMF to reduce your working voltage 

Both are nearing the limits of the wheel. Never experiencing either means you've been riding well under the limits. 

In other words, you are admitting you understand your wheel less than any rider that has experienced the range, up to the limit. Perhaps this entire time, you've been riding 10% of what the wheel is capable of. 

On 10/7/2019 at 1:34 AM, 3euc said:

On any EUC, I am able to reach top speed without crouching,

Point 3: Contradiction to point 2. You have not reached max speed by any definition.

On 10/7/2019 at 1:34 AM, 3euc said:

Acceleration comes from a shift in center of gravity

Point 4: No. Acceleration comes from disleveling force. COG shift is one means of achieving that. Impulse force is another.

On 10/7/2019 at 1:34 AM, 3euc said:

You won't see a single instance of pedal dipping on any EUC I've ever ridden, going back to 2015. Never been an issue for me.

Point 5: that is nothing to brag about. I can argue my pedal dipping clip is proof that I have more mastery of my wheel to levels that you're oblivious to.

Fact: I can do something you can't despite your entire 15 years of experience with PEVs, skiing, etc.

On 10/7/2019 at 2:03 AM, 3euc said:

But I don't crouch, which contributes nothing and only diminishes control.

Clarification: what is 'crouching' to you? To me, it means bending knees and/or hips.

On 10/7/2019 at 2:03 AM, 3euc said:

If done properly, there is first a shift in center of gravity, followed by pressure on the toes

Point 6: I agree this is optimal. COG leading = smooth. However, note there are edge cases where you wouldn't want to do so. Curb bopping, hard brake initiating, etc.

On 10/7/2019 at 9:10 AM, 3euc said:

You do not know how to shift your center of gravity forward properly. Any knowledgeable EUC rider can study your videos and is likely to reach the same conclusion. You are pushing the wheel out from under you and punching down with your toes, flexing your knees the drive them forward--this is not the right way how make an EUC move, but is a great way to destabilize both you and the EUC

Point 7: As I've stated before, you've missed the point of my pedal dipping video. That is not how I normally ride. I am using the ankle flick as a tool to demonstrate I can overlean the wheel well under the advertised cruising speed of 30 mph. The goal of my video is to show why I recommend a max cruising speed of 25mph on the 16X. The ankle flick is a tool for me to simulate an overlean with the safety benefit of instant recovery.

From my other thread:

"The ankle flick lets me apply an impulse of lean pressure and recover instantly, vs body weight leaning.

Try this exercise standing. Upright lean forward to apply pressure on your toes, then try leaning back to neutral. That takes a solid second or two - in that time you would've overleaned.

Now try with your ankles to apply an impulse - you're practically back to neutral by the time you've applied the pressure.

Why would I want to do this? Think of it as a safe look-ahead to test the waters. If the wheel is giving out from ankle flick, I know I'm near the limit, thus I won't lean accelerate. If the wheel is still solid, I know I'm safe to lean accelerate hard. It's just another tool in my toolbox.

But but but, there's beeps to warn you! Well, beeps are slow and they don't give you that immediate feel feedback. I ankle flick and recover before the beeps kick in - not sure if it's in the video, but the beeps kick in after I've dipped and recovered.

Fair warning: since you are applying an impulse force, it's all or nothing, as in, you need to use your discretion to calculate the force beforehand. Always start with small impulse, then scale up. In my video, you'll see it takes me a bunch of tries to get it to pedal dip - I'm gradually increasing the test force."

On 10/7/2019 at 10:03 AM, 3euc said:

You're right and wrong--you've got a mixture of understanding. Again, crouching forward is pitching your head and upper body forward, bending at the waist. Not a correct riding posture, despite some experienced, known riders doing it. Popular doesn't mean correct. Perhaps they do it because bending at the back is an easier way to lower one's center of gravity. Bending at the knees requires a lot of sustained lower body strength, more comparable to skiing.

Please stop using terms like 'right', 'wrong', 'correct'. There is no right or wrong. Those are completely arbitrary, and it is arrogant to insist otherwise. If you want to be taken seriously, evaluate techniques with their pros and cons - discuss trade-offs. 

Edited October 9, 2019 by chrisjunlee

[Mono]

17 hours ago, chrisjunlee said:

Ok. This guy is trolling for sure. It's more subtle and not as funny as umbrella Guy though.

I think he is serious which makes it actually funnier than a troll.

[Matthieu Thegrey]

That's a video of braking tests with different wheels that I made with friends ( MCM5, RW GT16, GW MSX). Need to lower center of mass to be effective enough.

 

 

Edited October 8, 2019 by Matthieu Thegrey

[Darrell Wesh]

11 minutes ago, 3euc said:

It occurs to me that I'm discussing this with a ghost, because I haven't seen a single second of you in motion, while I have 100 videos of me on YouTube. I have no idea what your skill level is or how you ride, or what the basis is for your apparent expertise. Why not throw up some videos for others to share?

LOL😂 You’re right huh; I could just be another stiff legged zombie rider hiding behind a keyboard saying I have evolved riding technique.

[3euc]

Just now, Darrell Wesh said:

LOL😂 You’re right huh; I could just be another stiff legged zombie rider hiding behind a keyboard saying I have evolved riding technique.

 You may not even own an EUC! You could be the one trolling us!

Are there no videos of you because you're not shooting any or have you just chosen not to share any? Admittedly, it's a pain, so I understand if you haven't bothered.

I'm thankful for all the riders who take the time to shoot and edit for us, so I've tried to give something back with my own videos.

[Darrell Wesh]

16 minutes ago, Matthieu Thegrey said:

That's a video of breaking tests with different wheels that I made with friends. Need to lower to be effective enough.

 

 

Jeez that MCM brakes so fast. Sounds like you’re killing the wheels lol

[3euc]

16 minutes ago, Mono said:

I think he is serious which makes it actually funnier than a troll.

"He" thinks nuclear proliferation is serious. This is just a forum chat among friends about EUCs.

Western Europe? Big place! You can't get any more specific than that? Should I have said North America, instead of Los Angeles, CA?