Ande Posted February 3, 2019 Share Posted February 3, 2019 Roughly, in either £’s or $’s, how much money does it cost to fully charge a typical euc from empty. Mines a ks18l. It would be nice to know, so that I can extol the virtues of the euc to potential adopters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chriull Posted February 3, 2019 Share Posted February 3, 2019 1 hour ago, Ande said: Roughly, in either £’s or $’s, how much money does it cost to fully charge a typical euc from empty. Mines a ks18l. It would be nice to know, so that I can extol the virtues of the euc to potential adopters. The 18l battery has an capacity of about 1kWh (1036 Wh). The charging itself has some efficiency (charger electric efficiency, cell charging efficiency) of very roughly 70%. The ks18l (as all EUCs) don't use the whole capacity of the cells. 100% would be from 4.2V downto 2.5V (for most cells) and used by the EUCs are from 4.2V downto 3.3V (downto 3.0V with the ks18xl? and maybe also the ks18l?). In the end the discharge curve is not linear anymore - so the "last volts give less capacity". So maybe something (again very roughly) like 90% of the capacity is used. So to sum up roughly about 1kWh/0.7*0.9=1.3kWh (something between 1kWh up to 1.5kWh?) are used from your electricity provider to fully charge the ks18l. The price in £ depend upon how much you pay for a kWh. Some people around here already measured the real energy used for charging and have real numbers to compare. As one kWh costs some 10 Euro Cent around here (don't forget the fixed costs for electricity beside the sole cost per kWh) the amount is quite neglectable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ande Posted February 3, 2019 Author Share Posted February 3, 2019 Thanks for the incredibly detailed reply. It’s quite amazing how energy efficient these things are as a mode of transport. Once I’m a more proficient rider, I’m going to utilise as much as possible. Much appreciated Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LanghamP Posted February 3, 2019 Share Posted February 3, 2019 My power meter seems to show between 5 cents to 20 cents, depending on time of day. It's hard to convert since I never know the cost of electricity but it seems much under a dollar to go 30 miles. P3 P4400 Kill A Watt Electricity Usage Monitor https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00009MDBU/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_yoWvCbJMDT2JH I bought this little guy in order to find out which items I can leave in plugged when turned off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockyTop Posted February 3, 2019 Share Posted February 3, 2019 A year ago I calculated about $0.40 per full charge. (MSuper 1600wh) That is less than 1 cent per mile. (South east USA ) Prices for power very in the US http://www.neo.ne.gov/statshtml/204.htm Hawaii would be almost three times higher. The Global costs are better than I expected. https://www.statista.com/statistics/263492/electricity-prices-in-selected-countries/ Keeping in mind that some islands are nearly $1 per kWh https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/electricity-rates-around-the-world.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddiemoy Posted February 3, 2019 Share Posted February 3, 2019 Cost me $0.07 to fully charge. I have solar. About $0.002 per mile. This vs about $0.023 per mile for my Tesla. $0.20 per mile for my VW Golf R. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LanghamP Posted February 3, 2019 Share Posted February 3, 2019 1 hour ago, eddiemoy said: $0.20 per mile for my VW Golf R. I cringed when I read about the "true" cost of owning a car; about 20-50 cents per mile is my cost too. However, if we include infrastructure (a foggy definition if there ever was one) then the cost per mile seems to be about $20,000 per year per person, or about $8000 per $100,000 of house ownership, assuming you drive about 10,000 miles per year. Since no one pays that amount of house tax even if you live in Pittsburgh, the difference is made up by enslaving your children for debt, ahem, I meant to say city bonds and Federal debt. While the above cost figures is bullshit because we cannot properly assign a cost of [your] car to multiusage infrastructure (the truck that brings you food uses that road too!) it does show road and street infrastructure to be extremely expensive, on the order of at least $2 per mile, and probably at least $5 per mile. I suspect it's more, perhaps a lot more, if you add up the health and environmental costs of getting in your car every day for 40 minutes. I do think the car and the suburbs made a lot of sense when land was cheap, populations we're small, roads were sparse, narrow, and people didn't drive very fast and didn't put the immense number of miles they do now. It does seem dangerous we are trying to both increase our population while increasing our standard of living. In my opinion a more sensible public policy is to try to turn the bigger suburbs into compact towns by eleminating parking lots and stroads, and try to reduce our population as a whole. https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2018/8/22/the-more-we-grow-the-poorer-we-become Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mono Posted February 4, 2019 Share Posted February 4, 2019 15 hours ago, Ande said: Roughly, in either £’s or $’s, how much money does it cost to fully charge a typical euc from empty. Mines a ks18l. It would be nice to know, so that I can extol the virtues of the euc to potential adopters. Charging costs are very unlikely to be relevant in the overall costs at all. I pay roughly 0.2ct/km for electricity but five times as much, 1ct/km, for tires alone. If you ride a €1000 EUC for 20,000km, it is 5ct/km, you need to ride 100,000km (which is pretty unrealistic) to get it at 1ct/km, which is the price of the tire wear and still five times the cost of the electricity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrelwood Posted February 4, 2019 Share Posted February 4, 2019 For me a full recharge on the MSX (~60km) costs roughly the same as 0.075L of gasoline (~0.9km, or 0.65km if I’d drive as aggressively as I ride...). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ande Posted February 4, 2019 Author Share Posted February 4, 2019 Even factoring in tyre usage, it’s still a crazy-cheap means of getting from A to B. More than happy 😃 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rafal Posted February 4, 2019 Share Posted February 4, 2019 0.2 Euro/kWh gives me 0.0042 Euro/km or 0.42ct/km. Cheap cheap cheap!!! Oh I forgot I charge most of the times at work. So the average charging cost is close to zero Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mono Posted February 4, 2019 Share Posted February 4, 2019 7 hours ago, Ande said: Even factoring in tyre usage, it’s still a crazy-cheap means of getting from A to B. More than happy 😃 I don't know how you get to this conclusion unless you ignore the purchase price. It is hard to get a reliable used wheel and they are often still expensive and if you buy a new wheel it is not likely that you will ever pay less than 10ct/km. More like is that you will have payed around 20ct/km at its end of life. That is about as "crazy-cheap" as a cheap used car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ande Posted February 4, 2019 Author Share Posted February 4, 2019 14 minutes ago, Mono said: I don't know how you get to this conclusion unless you ignore the purchase price. It is hard to get a reliable used wheel and they are often still expensive and if you buy a new wheel it is not likely that you will ever pay less than 10ct/km. More like is that you will have payed around 20ct/km at its end of life. That is about as "crazy-cheap" as a cheap used car. I don’t think that’s a fair assessment though. With a car comes tax, insurance, breakdown cover, oil, clutch and brake fluids, windscreen wash etc. Also factor in the inevitable garage repair/service fees and prices start to soar. I agree that wheels are expensive if bought new. But you should also recognise that if/when you sell the wheel, then the difference in price between what you paid for the wheel and what you sold it for would be the figure used to derive actual running costs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mono Posted February 4, 2019 Share Posted February 4, 2019 4 minutes ago, Ande said: I don’t think that’s a fair assessment though. With a car comes tax, insurance, breakdown cover, oil, clutch and brake fluids, windscreen wash etc. Just do the calculations. Or use Google. There are two reason why the car is so crazy-cheap: (i) it makes a much higher mileage and (ii) it is a real mass product. I think the numbers are overall even too rosy for the wheel. If I don't consider DIY tyre change and all on my wheel for free, I may even have to add mechanics and inspection costs of 5-10ct/km. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ande Posted February 4, 2019 Author Share Posted February 4, 2019 You change the tyre yourself on the euc because you can. It requires neither specialist tools, nor specialist knowledge. Keeping a car fully functional is not usually as straightforward. And it’s highly likely that a “cheap” used car will have more than it’s fair share of maintenance requirements. I’m not anti-car. I’ve got one. But I am acutely aware of the constant money pit that it is. And it’s not particularly cheap or old. Motoring is expensive..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyboyEUC Posted February 4, 2019 Share Posted February 4, 2019 9 hours ago, Rafal said: Oh I forgot I charge most of the times at work. So the average charging cost is close to zero I charge exclusively at work also, except for long group rides. Yay for free "gas"! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockyTop Posted February 4, 2019 Share Posted February 4, 2019 2 hours ago, Ande said: You change the tyre yourself on the euc because you can. It requires neither specialist tools, nor specialist knowledge. Keeping a car fully functional is not usually as straightforward. And it’s highly likely that a “cheap” used car will have more than it’s fair share of maintenance requirements. I’m not anti-car. I’ve got one. But I am acutely aware of the constant money pit that it is. And it’s not particularly cheap or old. Motoring is expensive..... At first glance I would have agreed with you however after working out the numbers these wheels are not as cheap as one might expect. Here is a comparison from the logs on my work vans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mono Posted February 5, 2019 Share Posted February 5, 2019 4 hours ago, Ande said: You change the tyre yourself on the euc because you can. It requires neither specialist tools, nor specialist knowledge. True for many of us. But it also requires time, which is not for free, at least for some of us. Sure, some people have lots of fun repairing their EUCs or cars or motorbikes themselves, but that's not how we compare costs, usually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ande Posted February 5, 2019 Author Share Posted February 5, 2019 No, you’re right. Usually we compare both sides of the debate. So, let’s assume that we change tyres on our euc about twice a year, and conservatively allow about 90 minutes per change. That’s 3 hours spent annually. The odd wipe-down after a mucky, off-road run, which can be measured in minutes, so that’s not a whole lot. Now the car...... It seems people, on average, clean their cars about once a month. It takes, roughly, about an hour to clean a car, and that’s outside only. That’s 12 hours annually already. And it would be extremely remiss of us to ignore all of the other little things that we do during the general course of car ownership that doesn’t get passed on to the garage. How about checking (and topping up where necessary) oil, coolant, washer fluid, clutch/brake fluid. Changing bulbs and fuses, wiper blades etc. Checking, and adjusting where necessary, air pressure in your tyres x4 ( x5 if you include the spare. Oh, and the inside of the car would like the odd valet too. These are just a few of the general things we do with our cars without so much as a second thought, because it’s the norm. I’m sure there’s loads of things I’ve overlooked, and plenty of little repair jobs that crop up that we are capable of, and end up tackling ourselves. If you are genuinely going to suggest that your car demands less of your free time than your euc, I would be absolutely overjoyed if you could regale me with your reasoning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowWheelin' Posted February 5, 2019 Share Posted February 5, 2019 I own a KS-18XL. As the cost rate of electricity (price per kw/h) differs based on where each of us lives, time of year, time of day, weekend vs. weekday vs. statuatory holiday, it's more accurate to know the total amount of electricity measured in kw/h. This unit of measure allows you to apply your local electricity rate, cost per kw/h, to calculate the actual cost for yourself. Using a plug power meter, the next time I charge my KS-18XL, I will note the battery level in app pre-charge, and report back how many kw/h it took to fully charge. Additionally, I find most Li-Po battery cells charge at different rates based on the current state of the battery (temperature and energy level). Often, Li-Po battery cells charge quicker up to 80%, with the remaining 20% to full charge taking more energy and time. So, the case could be made that charging you EUC upto 80% may be more cost efficient than charging it to full capacity. For me, electricity costs vary based on the time of year, time of day, and whether it's the weekend or a weekday or statuatory holiday. See the chart and PDF document attached below for Ontario, Canada electricity rates. https://imgur.com/zrsM6ym I hope this helps. Electricity Chart.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mono Posted February 5, 2019 Share Posted February 5, 2019 FTR, these are the final operating purchase costs per mileage of the three EUCs I own but don't ride anymore (two of them are defective). I give the amount I payed (including replacement tires etc) minus what I estimate as remaining value (such I wouldn't feel like a con artist to accept as offer) and the distance I rode. I don't count the hours I spent in repairing tires etc. or fuel or... EUR / km (950 - 200) / 3500 ≈ 21ct/km (600 - 150) / 700 ≈ 64ct/km (880 - 80) / 8000 ≈ 10ct/km On average this is a respectable 2k/12.2k = 16ct/km. Numbers to compare with for cars are widely available on the www. EDIT: I did a pretty comprehensive consumption statistics a while ago, resulting in 16Wh/km as measurement, hence contributing roughly 0.2ct/km or 1.3% of the above costs, far below the rounding errors and memory leaks I allowed myself to make in the above numbers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockyTop Posted February 5, 2019 Share Posted February 5, 2019 2 hours ago, Mono said: On average this is a respectable 2k/12.2k = 16ct/km. US translation $0.27 per mile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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