Siggy Posted November 18, 2018 Posted November 18, 2018 Hey y'all! Of late have become obsessed with idea of seated riding and bigger batteries! Imagining alleviating foot pain by seating is just too tempting. Do I need help? Eith black friday around the corner I'm getting antsy...Would love to hear the thoughts of the community!! Stats: 6'4, 195lbs Situation: Wheel with seat and 1600+ battery, suitable primarily for city riding. Choices: 1) KS18s 1680wh (~22kg) Lowest price: £1200 Pros: - lighter weight - reasonably priced - XL pedals available - tank - like shell - increased waterproofedness - Kingsong quality - thinner shell Cons: - only 1500w motor - older 67.2v generation wheel - darth vader/sea horse style shell - near end of life cycle design - "safe" option 2) Monster 1600w/2400w 84v - m super x board (56 - 72lbs) Lowest price: £1600/£1900 Pros: - "adventurous" option - 84v - "comfier" seat - 22" wheel! eats everything for breakfast - its tha monster!!! Luxury of E wheels Cons: - non XL pedals - lack of waterproofedness - "brittle" shell - creaks when mounting - nearly end of life cycle design - faster battery consumption rate (due to likelihood of higher speeds) - boxy design - $$$ - heavy weight (2400w more so) - less manevourable in city traffic -"shoddy" gotway internal organisation 3) Monster 100v 1884wh (??kg) Lowest price £1950 Pros: (including above) -more future proofed - more power - lighter weight for battery amount Cons: (incl. above) - $$$$ 4) Wait - for new "KS18sXL" with KS18s body and KS18L power (ETA n/a) - for new Monster with revamped body style and better internals (ETA n/a) - stop dreaming about seated riding and just stick with standing what do y'all reckon
eddiemoy Posted November 18, 2018 Posted November 18, 2018 25 minutes ago, Siggy said: @US69 @houseofjob @eddiemoy There is no update to the 18S coming. It is great as it is even though it is 1500Watts. I love my 18S, I don't have any experience with the Monster, but I know they use shims and they tend to be a problem. Also it is the same motor trying to drive a bigger wheel. I've found it is a little lacking when putting bigger spokes on an existing motor to try to drive a bigger wheel. 18S is smaller more manageable. My opinion of course.
Darrell Wesh Posted November 19, 2018 Posted November 19, 2018 I love my 18s more than I love my MSX. So comfortable with the tall, flush body and seated riding is absolutely game changing. No experience with the Monster.
Siggy Posted November 19, 2018 Author Posted November 19, 2018 @eddiemoy thats extremely helpful! Thanks. Love your vids, keep them up. Look forward to appreciating sitting down on long rides just like you do. @Darrell Wesh Game changer is exactly what I;m looking for. I'm guessing your pretty tall and can still handle sitting with ease?
houseofjob Posted November 19, 2018 Posted November 19, 2018 Yes, I have more than fleeting experience with all these wheels, ... let's see... 23 hours ago, Siggy said: Hey y'all! Of late have become obsessed with idea of seated riding and bigger batteries! Imagining alleviating foot pain by seating is just too tempting. Once/If you get the hang of seated, you'll never want to go without having one seated wheel in your stable... I know I won't .... apparently one's arse is better suited for pain-free riding haha 23 hours ago, Siggy said: 1) KS18s 1680wh (~22kg) Lowest price: £1200 - reasonably priced Wow, that's a steal for the KS-18S, which is still a viable wheel IMHO, despite the release of newer EUC models. 23 hours ago, Siggy said: Pros: - lighter weight Yes, I think of the KS-18S as a lighter weight alternative to a Monster. The height is key to comfortable seated riding. 23 hours ago, Siggy said: - XL pedals available XL pedals are a plus, but for me (USM 8.5) I don't really feel that much of a difference when compared to ACM or MSuper style Gotway pedals. The main thing is, KS now has an alternative to their diminutive older KS stock pedals. 23 hours ago, Siggy said: - tank - like shell - Kingsong quality - thinner shell KS-18S has a thinner shell(?) News to me. The plastics KS has been using on the KS18 tall series is one of the best. I had stripped screw issues on my old KS-18A, and I basically had to melt part of the shell to take it apart because it was so strong. 23 hours ago, Siggy said: - increased waterproofedness My KS-18S is always my main rain wheel because the board sits the highest, higher than in the Monster, away from possible submersion, and the top vents are sufficiently covered with the seat. 23 hours ago, Siggy said: Cons: - only 1500w motor - older 67.2v generation wheel If I closed my eyes and test rode all these wheels listed, I would pick the Monster 1, KS-18S 2, purely based on performance + comfort. If you told me the KS-18S on the current firmware was 84V with a 2kW nominal motor, I would believe you, the latest KS-18S firmware is THat good IMHO. Plus, the KS-18S has a slight pedal-dip compensation, ala the MSX, that is awesome for hard accelerating out of sharp turns that I miss on the 84V KS-18L/XL. 23 hours ago, Siggy said: - darth vader/sea horse style shell This is a big reason why the KS-18S isn't more popular: pure aesthetics. Eyes closed, the KS-18S is arguably one of the best wheels still, in the market. 23 hours ago, Siggy said: - near end of life cycle design Yeah, this was kind of a doozy for me. I'm hoping they up the anty and put out a circular 20-22" seated competitor to the Monster in place of the KS18 tall series *fingers crossed*. 23 hours ago, Siggy said: 2) Monster 1600w/2400w 84v - m super x board (56 - 72lbs) Lowest price: £1600/£1900 Pros: - "adventurous" option - 84v - "comfier" seat - 22" wheel! eats everything for breakfast - its tha monster!!! Luxury of E wheels The Monster series is also an ATF wheel for me. I consider the Monster & KS-18S tall complementary: one is always a backup seated wheel for the other, and the Monster is for sheer comfort and performance, while the KS-18S offers a more compact package when my destination is more limited in space. The only reason why I don't currently have a Monster (pre-emptive sale) is because, based on Gotway's frantic pace history of releasing new model wheels, I'm waiting for a redesign Monster replacement, one where I don't have to deal with a crappy quality shell (easily cracks, usually near the inner shell contacting the pedal arm) and always dealing with loosening shims every half year of riding. The Monster really is like riding a bull, the only EUC I've felt like I belong amongst car traffic (and can feel comfortable going higher speeds than I would on any other, smaller EUC, due to the big tire diameter & width). That tire has really saved me on a couple of unseen divots. And yes, the seat being bigger and a bit more plush is advantageous for seated riding, but I quickly got used to the KS-18S seat, which is fine sitting. Plus, the old Monster / MSuperV3 seats have a habit of cracking on the underside. Also, FWIW super easy to upgrade a 1600Wh Monster to 2400Wh, as it's just adding an extra 800Wh pack. 23 hours ago, Siggy said: Cons: - non XL pedals This could be dependent on foot sizing, but the difference between Gotway & the KS XL pedals is a non-issue for me. 23 hours ago, Siggy said: - lack of waterproofedness ?! I've had no issues riding in the rain with the Monster. My only concern was that the mechanical power button and charge port face up, meaning possible exposure, but you can just cover that part with something. 23 hours ago, Siggy said: - creaks when mounting I'm not a big guy, but I've never had creaking on my former Monster when mounting. Also, you might not realize, with seated EUC's, you can lean your palm on the seat then mount your legs, which is how I always do on the Monster & KS-18S. 23 hours ago, Siggy said: - nearly end of life cycle design Yes, I really hope the redesign releases Q1 2019. 23 hours ago, Siggy said: - faster battery consumption rate (due to likelihood of higher speeds) Very true, especially the faster a wheel can go. The Monster range fluctuates dramatically depending on your average speed traveled. 23 hours ago, Siggy said: - heavy weight (2400w more so) When wheels get as heavy as the Monster (either configuration), a few extra pounds really doesn't feel like a big difference when lifting... they're all heavy! 23 hours ago, Siggy said: - less manevourable in city traffic Speak for yourself I regularly rode my Monster amongst pedestrian traffic, no issues. IMHO, true "maneuverability" is technique, not the wheel. 23 hours ago, Siggy said: -"shoddy" gotway internal organisation Have you seen the internals of a Monster? It's actually much cleaner IMHO than the typical Gotway cable organization. 23 hours ago, Siggy said: -more future proofed The Monster 100V is more future proofed? Highly disagree, I'm still skeptical on the current viability of 100V, what with the charger issues, etc. 23 hours ago, Siggy said: - more power I really debate this. All the seasoned riders here in NYC who own 100V Monsters have told me that there is no perceptible difference in power between 100V & 84V configurations, just more top speed with 100V. The higher power claims seem to be coming from riders who have less experience with multiple EUCs, and I have a feeling are heavily biased from new-wheel-purchase-euphoria. Based on these reports (which I trust), I'm more convinced higher motor power is more dramatic for increasing power model-to-model, more than increasing voltage (which it feels like they need to fine-tune over time / models). 23 hours ago, Siggy said: - lighter weight for battery amount Not really. The Monster 100V is only lighter because there are less cells, due to the 100V parallel pack physical space constriction. 23 hours ago, Siggy said: 4) Wait - for new "KS18sXL" with KS18s body and KS18L power (ETA n/a) Not sure how the short 18L/XL fit in this conversation, totally different category of wheel, plus no seat. 23 hours ago, Siggy said: - for new Monster with revamped body style and better internals (ETA n/a) If it were me doing me, I would either do this, wait to see if Gotway drops a new Monster redesign this Q1/Q2 2019, or get that KS-18S (or both!) 23 hours ago, Siggy said: - stop dreaming about seated riding and just stick with standing Up to you, but FWIW, I've been on long range rides over an hour where seated really saved me & my feet! The poor non-seated guy riding with us one trip apparently was holding in the pain, as seen when we arrived at our destination, and immediately shaking the foot pain out. Meanwhile, the whole trip, foot pain didn't even enter into my mind~
eddiemoy Posted November 19, 2018 Posted November 19, 2018 @Siggy, if you haven't realized now that the motors are mostly all the same between the 16-22" wheels. All they seem to do is add spokes of varying size to the motor to achieve the wheel size they desire. This seems to be the easy button without redesigning the motor to actually fit the wheel size. If you think about it, each revolution now would go a little farther in the bigger sized wheels. But you sacrifice torque or the feeling of acceleration. it is much easier to turn a 16" wheel than to turn a 22" wheel with the same motor torque. unless they redesign the motor, i would stick with a 18". I didn't realize they were using the same motor until recently. Never thought they would be so stupid. Mind blown. If they designed a motor for the 18" or 22", then they would be be great wheels, as it is now, i feel it is a little bit of a compromise.
LanghamP Posted November 19, 2018 Posted November 19, 2018 I've never read about a failure on the KS18S. With the upward speakers, maturity of the platform, and solid shell unlike Goways, that is my first choice of a new wheel, seated or otherwise. While the Ninebot z10 is tempting, it's also a new wheel, and new wheels are invariably problematic. With newish versus new wheels, you get 1. Lower prices. 2. Semi-proven tech instead of prototype tech, and with wheels you need safety. Everytime I'm tempted to buy a new Inmotion V10, Gotway, or KS, I'll read about a big problem that sends me scurrying back for a few months. I can't emphasize this safety point enough; wait for your dream wheel to iterate into batch 2.0 or higher (example 18L versus newer 18Ls).
Steven D Wheeler Posted November 19, 2018 Posted November 19, 2018 I have two Monsters, an 2400 and a 100v 1865. I also have a MSX 1600. I ride them all sitting down which is my favorite way to ride them. I added yoga mat and Gorilla tape to create very plush seating. Never had shim issues I don't ride up and down mountains all day.
Siggy Posted November 20, 2018 Author Posted November 20, 2018 @houseofjob Firstly mate... epic response! Really appreciate you going to the effort of being so thorough. I've chosen some golden ones below: 5 hours ago, houseofjob said: Once/If you get the hang of seated, you'll never want to go without having one seated wheel in your stable oooohhh yeahh I'm ready! 5 hours ago, houseofjob said: The height is key to comfortable seated riding 5 hours ago, houseofjob said: XL pedals are a plus 5 hours ago, houseofjob said: My KS-18S is always my main rain wheel 5 hours ago, houseofjob said: the latest KS-18S firmware is THat good IMHO Due to my height and show size (US 13) - the KS18s is looking most likely. This new firmware sounds exciting! Waterproofedness is key! Especially considering LDN weather is like 90% rain 5 hours ago, houseofjob said: The Monster really is like riding a bull, the only EUC I've felt like I belong amongst car traffic 5 hours ago, houseofjob said: I'm waiting for a redesign Monster replacement 5 hours ago, houseofjob said: a few extra pounds really doesn't feel like a big difference when lifting... they're all heavy! 5 hours ago, houseofjob said: Have you seen the internals of a Monster? 5 hours ago, houseofjob said: I have a feeling are heavily biased from new-wheel-purchase-euphoria. Certainly sounds like technique is massively important with the monster. Not really up for dealing with loose shims and the brittle shell. 5 hours ago, houseofjob said: If it were me doing me, I would either do this Yes, I've decided to either pick up the KS18s or just wait. Although, It would be a long wait even when the new monster/KS18SXL comes out - as @LanghamP mentions I want to avoid the 1st+2nd batches of any new wheel This is such an important point that we many times miss. Our new wheel euphoria certainly clouds our judgements - cheers @LanghamP 5 hours ago, houseofjob said: Not sure how the short 18L/XL fit in this conversation p.s. to clarify were talking about the "equivalent" 18L 2000w motor inside 18s body shape, basically. Hope that makes sense
Siggy Posted November 20, 2018 Author Posted November 20, 2018 5 hours ago, eddiemoy said: I didn't realize they were using the same motor until recently. Never thought they would be so stupid. Mind blown. If they designed a motor for the 18" or 22", then they would be be great wheels, as it is now, i feel it is a little bit of a compromise. This is something I never thought about. Talk about being cost effective but not progressive in any way. When did you discover this btw @eddiemoy - hella interesting
Siggy Posted November 20, 2018 Author Posted November 20, 2018 1 hour ago, Steven D Wheeler said: I added yoga mat and Gorilla tape to create very plush seating. ooow sounds pimping 1 hour ago, Steven D Wheeler said: Never had shim issues I don't ride up and down mountains all day. hehe @Marty Backe
eddiemoy Posted November 20, 2018 Posted November 20, 2018 7 minutes ago, Siggy said: This is something I never thought about. Talk about being cost effective but not progressive in any way. When did you discover this btw @eddiemoy - hella interesting It didn't hit me until recently, last few months.
houseofjob Posted November 20, 2018 Posted November 20, 2018 28 minutes ago, Siggy said: @houseofjob Firstly mate... epic response! Really appreciate you going to the effort of being so thorough. No problem~ 28 minutes ago, Siggy said: This new firmware sounds exciting! It's an old "new" firmware, really. Any KS-18S owner who rode the earlier firmwares can attest, the 18S rides completely better than it did when it first released, like a brand new motor. 28 minutes ago, Siggy said: Certainly sounds like technique is massively important with the monster. Not really up for dealing with loose shims and the brittle shell. TBF, I am really, really missing my old Monster right about now. Despite the crap shell, the performance kinda excuses things IMO, just that I like to plan ahead of new releases, esp since EUC's decline in value quickly, like computers or cars. 28 minutes ago, Siggy said: p.s. to clarify were talking about the "equivalent" 18L 2000w motor inside 18s body shape, basically. Hope that makes sense Ah, ok, I misread this the first response. KS according to multiple sources, will not revamp the KS18 tall series as-is (maybe a better, more appealing incarnation(?)), so this would have to be a pure DIY. If the current KS-18S motor behavior stays the same, but you're just increasing the motor power to 2000W nom, then this would be awesome! But if you have to adopt the KS-18L/XL style firmware motor behavior, I would pass on this mod. With the current firmwares between all the KS-18's (S/L/XL - where's Medium?) IMHO there isn't a significant enough bump up in power on the 84V wheels vs the 67V KS-18S (obviously, with the right FW, this could change), and the L/XL doesn't do the turn pedal-dip compensation that I love on the unadulterated KS-18S. 2 hours ago, Steven D Wheeler said: Never had shim issues I don't ride up and down mountains all day. I don't either.... you must not have enough mileage on it, but give it time I don't know any regular daily-riding Monster owner here in NYC who hasn't experienced the loosening shim issue. You'll know the shim has loosened when you rock the Monster back-and-forth, and there is play / wiggle to the Monster body that is not associated with motor rotating the wheel.
Darrell Wesh Posted November 20, 2018 Posted November 20, 2018 Just hurry up and get the Ks18s from ewheels since they’re low on stock! You’re 6’4” so I imagine the tall shell will be a blessing to you vs short shells. Don’t wait on that fairy tale new wheel because once/if it comes out you’ll be in even more pain knowing you’ll have to wait for batch 2.0 to iron out the kinks.
Darrell Wesh Posted November 20, 2018 Posted November 20, 2018 I just rode 35miles yesterday on the Ks18s. A long 3hr ride and my feet were completely fine. The funny thing is I was riding the MSX earlier in the day and could only manage 1hr and 20min before heading home due to foot fatigue/pain.
eddiemoy Posted November 20, 2018 Posted November 20, 2018 6 hours ago, Darrell Wesh said: I just rode 35miles yesterday on the Ks18s. A long 3hr ride and my feet were completely fine. The funny thing is I was riding the MSX earlier in the day and could only manage 1hr and 20min before heading home due to foot fatigue/pain. the MSX also has those extreme angled pedals that don't help with foot fatigue. It adds to your foot fatigue from my experience. I've still not gotten used to them yet. People also don't realize that MSX and 18S has the same turn off point on tipping. ~49 degrees if totally upgright is 90 degrees. But the MSX trips a degree after pedals hit the ground(50 degrees), so dangerous where as the 18S trips 6 degrees after pedal scrap(55 degrees). Gives you less clearance in turns but if you are turning that hard, you are just asking for trouble.
Steven D Wheeler Posted November 21, 2018 Posted November 21, 2018 I've got about a thousand Miles on my Monster 2400 right now. Now that I am remembering in detail I did have to adjust this ones shims last year. Yeah I did tighten the shims so you are right that it may occur. My MSX I've gotten used to the pedals and they give me no trouble standing or seated. No odd fatigue even after I ride 30+ miles. I find the angle helps me to turn and I can turn this MSX on a dime it is so precise. At first I wanted it to be just like my ACM, but then I realized there was a reason for them to do this pedal angle the way they did. I find the MSX to be extremely maneuverable and I have yet to ever clip a pedal as they sit so high. It steers better than a Monster sitting down 100%. Like an F1 car vs. a Pickup Truck.
Darrell Wesh Posted November 21, 2018 Posted November 21, 2018 48 minutes ago, Steven D Wheeler said: I've got about a thousand Miles on my Monster 2400 right now. Now that I am remembering in detail I did have to adjust this ones shims last year. Yeah I did tighten the shims so you are right that it may occur. My MSX I've gotten used to the pedals and they give me no trouble standing or seated. No odd fatigue even after I ride 30+ miles. I find the angle helps me to turn and I can turn this MSX on a dime it is so precise. At first I wanted it to be just like my ACM, but then I realized there was a reason for them to do this pedal angle the way they did. I find the MSX to be extremely maneuverable and I have yet to ever clip a pedal as they sit so high. It steers better than a Monster sitting down 100%. Like an F1 car vs. a Pickup Truck. Compared to the Ks18s, seated riding is a joke- an afterthought- on the MSX
Darrell Wesh Posted November 21, 2018 Posted November 21, 2018 I don’t even do seated on my MSX it’s that uncomfortable. Seated is supposed to be relaxing, but even at 5’10” the MSX short short seat angle is way too awkward to be comfy. I don’t ever use the seat on that thing.
Siggy Posted November 21, 2018 Author Posted November 21, 2018 On 11/20/2018 at 12:53 AM, houseofjob said: since EUC's decline in value quickly e wheel depreciation surprises me - its almost better to keep the wheel than sell. Ian @speedyfeet does a wheel buy back scheme for 20% of RRP - don't know who would be desperate/stupid enough to do this. 19 hours ago, Darrell Wesh said: Just hurry up and get the Ks18s you just might get your wish mr wesh 19 hours ago, Darrell Wesh said: foot fatigue/pain I've resorted to spiky massage ball therapy after long rides - it helps but I'd rather deal with the source than the symptom 2 hours ago, Steven D Wheeler said: Yeah I did tighten the shims damn damn damn those loose shims
U-Stride Posted November 21, 2018 Posted November 21, 2018 On 11/18/2018 at 2:13 PM, Siggy said: Hey y'all! Of late have become obsessed with idea of seated riding and bigger batteries! Imagining alleviating foot pain by seating is just too tempting. Do I need help? Eith black friday around the corner I'm getting antsy...Would love to hear the thoughts of the community!! Stats: 6'4, 195lbs Situation: Wheel with seat and 1600+ battery, suitable primarily for city riding. Choices: 1) KS18s 1680wh (~22kg) Lowest price: £1200 Pros: - lighter weight - reasonably priced - XL pedals available - tank - like shell - increased waterproofedness - Kingsong quality - thinner shell Cons: - only 1500w motor - older 67.2v generation wheel - darth vader/sea horse style shell - near end of life cycle design - "safe" option 2) Monster 1600w/2400w 84v - m super x board (56 - 72lbs) Lowest price: £1600/£1900 Pros: - "adventurous" option - 84v - "comfier" seat - 22" wheel! eats everything for breakfast - its tha monster!!! Luxury of E wheels Cons: - non XL pedals - lack of waterproofedness - "brittle" shell - creaks when mounting - nearly end of life cycle design - faster battery consumption rate (due to likelihood of higher speeds) - boxy design - $$$ - heavy weight (2400w more so) - less manevourable in city traffic -"shoddy" gotway internal organisation 3) Monster 100v 1884wh (??kg) Lowest price £1950 Pros: (including above) -more future proofed - more power - lighter weight for battery amount Cons: (incl. above) - $$$$ 4) Wait - for new "KS18sXL" with KS18s body and KS18L power (ETA n/a) - for new Monster with revamped body style and better internals (ETA n/a) - stop dreaming about seated riding and just stick with standing what do y'all reckon I’ve also been looking at the KS-18S to be honest as well as the KS-18XL & MSuper. But to me the KS-18XL is like my Tesla in that I can’t seat. The MSX & 18S makes so much sense to have as a second wheel. After seeing how Chris rides it so effortlessly escpially when making turns, I’ve become obsessed a bit. I don’t know. Choices.
Darrell Wesh Posted November 22, 2018 Posted November 22, 2018 You should Chris in the Monster seated video! https://youtu.be/TUTkkN03tBE
Siggy Posted November 22, 2018 Author Posted November 22, 2018 @Jediah Matthew Totally agreed on having seated option as second wheel! Good content by the way - keep it up You all have given me the polite nudge I needed! Cheers KS18s in black ordered!!!
LanghamP Posted November 22, 2018 Posted November 22, 2018 18 minutes ago, Siggy said: @Jediah Matthew Totally agreed on having seated option as second wheel! Good content by the way - keep it up You all have given me the polite nudge I needed! Cheers KS18s in black ordered!!! Dang, now you made me look at prices on @Jason McNeil 's website, but the KS18S goes for nearly 2k there whereas the batteryless MSuper X goes for 1k. I think you made the best choice regardless of price.
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