Ninebot One E+ shut off in the middle of riding.

[FullTilt]

9 hours ago, enaon said:

You are on 1.4.3, I believe 1.4.3 gives slightly less voltage readouts than 1.4.0, so 61.9 volts whould look like a good battery pack. You  also have the p firmware with hi-speed on, there is a bug  where the tiltback is lost if an app connects to the bluetooth of the wheel.

Do this test, first after a power on, then after a power on with the phone connected and check if there is different behaivour. This video demonstrates the bug, the tiltback should have kicked in, it does not.

You are right, I'm on 1.4.3 p firmware w/ hi-speed on. I did the test connected/unconnected, both behave the same - no tiltback ending with beeping and red flashing lights after reaching 32.8 kph. Maybe 1.4.0 bug is a bit different. Anyways, I prefer no tiltback and always connect to EUC World and monitor speed with Pebble so not an issue for me just a curiosity. 

[litewave]

Here is my experience with the E+ (two active wheels, one spare) and numerous battery packs over four years and nearly 10,000km:

5 Ninebot E+ 320wh battery packs with a total over 9,000km -> zero cut-outs (two purchased through Bangood from sellers in China, three came with the wheels)

2 Ninebot P 340wh battery packs with approx. 500km total -> three cut-outs (both purchased from Speedyfeet.co.uk two years ago).

I think @smallexis original internal battery mod which @enaon has replicated with @MRN76 firmware upgrade is the way to go.

[enaon]

On 7/11/2020 at 3:59 AM, FullTilt said:

You are right, I'm on 1.4.3 p firmware w/ hi-speed on. I did the test connected/unconnected, both behave the same - no tiltback ending with beeping and red flashing lights after reaching 32.8 kph. Maybe 1.4.0 bug is a bit different. Anyways, I prefer no tiltback and always connect to EUC World and monitor speed with Pebble so not an issue for me just a curiosity. 

I have the same setup, 1.4.3 on hispeed. If you have beeping and red lights, the tiltback kicked in. If you see my video, I can get it to 32khm and back with ease. This cannot happen if the tilback works unless you are really strong. 

So I gues you do not have the bug. Only 2 out of my 4 wheels have it, I am not sure why, I only know that those two wheels can go over 32 khm, no tiltback until face plant if the bt is connected. 

[FullTilt]

7 hours ago, enaon said:

I have the same setup, 1.4.3 on hispeed. If you have beeping and red lights, the tiltback kicked in. If you see my video, I can get it to 32khm and back with ease. This cannot happen if the tilback works unless you are really strong. 

I stand corrected. I guess when riding, the tiltback must be significantly less noticeable compared to the "throw you off the wheel" tiltback pre-MRN firmware. I do backoff when I get a "floaty" feel - perhaps when physical tiltback is prevented by the lack of motor power at speed. On one of my "soft cutouts" when I was overpowering it a little, the wheel actually tipped forward before recovering.

7 hours ago, enaon said:

Only 2 out of my 4 wheels have it, I am not sure why, I only know that those two wheels can go over 32 khm, no tiltback until face plant if the bt is connected. 

That sounds strangely exciting.  Perhaps you are the owner of the fastest <30 lb 16" wheels. 

[Jeff Bierlink]

Wow, I appreciate all of the input.  Just FYI my collar bone is healing well but too slowly for my taste.  I am very uncomfortable with riding for now since a slight bump could cause me to adjust my balance by quickly moving my arms and moving my right arm quickly is not a good idea at this time.  However, I have been riding up and down the driveway and I have been maxing out about 10kph.  I have only charged the wheel one time since the fall but I have been riding it a little bit at a time trying to drain the battery to below 20%.  The Wheel is currently at 30% but I still don't want to go fast enough to cause a tilt back. 

On 7/7/2020 at 3:36 AM, Chriull said:

Hope you recover fine!

The lower the battery, the more careful one has to drive. Especially with such "weak" wheels

You can set tiltback to some lower speed temporarily and try it out.

But I'd see no reason why tiltback could stop working!

I enable the limited mode when the battery was reporting around 60% and I got the tilt back every time I hit something like 6kph so The tilt backs are actually functioning thanks for reminding me about that option.

I will be charging it fully and testing the voltage, as has been suggested, after I get the battery to below 20 percent and I start getting the low battery tilt backs.  This battery is crazy difficult to drain a little bit at a time but I have a couple more months before my shoulder heals so for now, I'm not in a big hurry.

[Jeff Bierlink]

Okay I rode it a few times today I rode for 2 miles and I was finally able to get the battery percentage to show 18%  The red lights were flashing and the wheel felt sluggish but it would still go 8kph (I'm scared to go any faster).  I never got a single tilt back.  My apps are both reporting 51.7v but I was hoping to test this with my meter.  Could you guys let me know, do I have to pull the battery cover to test the voltage?  I don't get anything from the charge port pins.

[smallexis]

On 7/11/2020 at 3:52 PM, litewave said:

I think @smallexis original internal battery mod

yes it's better to switch to output protection in order to be direclty on + and - battery poles

[litewave]

On 7/17/2020 at 5:07 PM, Jeff Bierlink said:

Okay I rode it a few times today I rode for 2 miles and I was finally able to get the battery percentage to show 18%  The red lights were flashing and the wheel felt sluggish but it would still go 8kph (I'm scared to go any faster).  I never got a single tilt back.  My apps are both reporting 51.7v but I was hoping to test this with my meter.  Could you guys let me know, do I have to pull the battery cover to test the voltage?  I don't get anything from the charge port pins.

The NB app shows the drive voltage. The Charge Doctor, if you can find one, shows voltage when connected to the charger. Pry/pop off the light ring gently to access and remove the two screws that secure the battery cover so you can inspect the battery pack.

The NB1E+ goes into limp mode below 20%.

Edited July 19, 2020 by litewave

[Jeff Bierlink]

Wow thanks, I gotta get me one of those charge doctors.  Update: EUC world is showing the battery at 49.9v.  Both the Ninebot and the EUC world apps are showing the battery percentage at 13%.  I am still able to take this wheel upto 9 kph without any tilt back or beeps.  It could probably go faster but I'm not willing to risk it.  From what I can tell, this wheel is not working as it is meant to work.  The alarms and tilt back are functioning in "limited mode" but for some reason they are not functioning during regular riding mode.  This was functional in February when I got the wheel but at some point it just stopped working.  The only thing that alerted me to this issue was a full speed cut out (ouch).  Please, if you are riding a NineBot One E+ be concerned and try to determine if you have not gotten any tilt backs in a while.  I'm afraid that these are disposable units, since it doesn't seem possible to get a new main board or service for these.

[Chriull]

1 minute ago, Jeff Bierlink said:

Wow thanks, I gotta get me one of those charge doctors. 

Sorry, that won't be possible:

 

[litewave]

1 hour ago, Jeff Bierlink said:

Wow thanks, I gotta get me one of those charge doctors.  Update: EUC world is showing the battery at 49.9v.  Both the Ninebot and the EUC world apps are showing the battery percentage at 13%.  I am still able to take this wheel upto 9 kph without any tilt back or beeps.  It could probably go faster but I'm not willing to risk it.  From what I can tell, this wheel is not working as it is meant to work.  The alarms and tilt back are functioning in "limited mode" but for some reason they are not functioning during regular riding mode.  This was functional in February when I got the wheel but at some point it just stopped working.  The only thing that alerted me to this issue was a full speed cut out (ouch).  Please, if you are riding a NineBot One E+ be concerned and try to determine if you have not gotten any tilt backs in a while.  I'm afraid that these are disposable units, since it doesn't seem possible to get a new main board or service for these.

Speedyfeet still sells control boards (A1/S2 and P) but has been out of the E+ models for a while. Reading your posts, I seriously doubt you need a new one, however. You just need to find a charger to charge your battery. You might consider creating a new topic and reach out to the community to find one. It's not safe to ride at such a low charge, and not good for the battery.

[Paradox]

My ninebot shows a drive voltage of 60.6v.  the charger is a 61VDC charger.  I don't think this is out of line.

Edited July 21, 2020 by Paradoxedgewater

[Jeff Bierlink]

21 minutes ago, litewave said:

Speedyfeet still sells control boards (A1/S2 and P) but has been out of the E+ models for a while. Reading your posts, I seriously doubt you need a new one, however. You just need to find a charger to charge your battery. You might consider creating a new topic and reach out to the community to find one. It's not safe to ride at such a low charge, and not good for the battery.

Sorry for the miscommunication.  I joined this thread on page 2 with asking about the possibility that my wheel has gone bad because I had a cut out and I believe my tilt backs are not working.  I didn't want to charge the wheel until I could determine whether the tilt backs were working or not.  It appears from my testing at low voltage that the board or the firmware are hosed.  The last thing I (or anyone) want to do is test for tilt backs at full battery.  This wheel is functional and the battery will charge fine.  Now that I believe I have determined that there actually is a problem with the wheel, I will be able to do the full battery charge and check the voltage, as was suggested but I don't believe the cut out, I had was battery related.  I'm almost completely convinced that somehow even though the limited mode is functional, the wheel does not give tilt back or beep for going too fast in normal operation mode.  I call this new mode Face plant mode.

[litewave]

3 hours ago, Jeff Bierlink said:

Sorry for the miscommunication.  I joined this thread on page 2 with asking about the possibility that my wheel has gone bad because I had a cut out and I believe my tilt backs are not working.  I didn't want to charge the wheel until I could determine whether the tilt backs were working or not.  It appears from my testing at low voltage that the board or the firmware are hosed.  The last thing I (or anyone) want to do is test for tilt backs at full battery.  This wheel is functional and the battery will charge fine.  Now that I believe I have determined that there actually is a problem with the wheel, I will be able to do the full battery charge and check the voltage, as was suggested but I don't believe the cut out, I had was battery related.  I'm almost completely convinced that somehow even though the limited mode is functional, the wheel does not give tilt back or beep for going too fast in normal operation mode.  I call this new mode Face plant mode.

The E+ can overheat when temps are near 90deg,  which could be a factor in Georgia. If it happens again, check the control board temperature in the app. Also, you may try recalibrating the wheel.

[Jeff Bierlink]

I'm not sure what the temperature was when I had the cut out but it was not that hot out.  The potential impact from battery and heat seem like not the primary cause for the cut out since the tilt back and beep warnings are non functional.  I could have a perfect functioning battery on the coldest day of the year here in GA and this One E+ would still not give me any indication of pushing its speed limit.  This wheel is almost fully functional.  The tilt backs and warning beeps only work in limited mode.  Something has failed on this board or maybe in the firmware (v1.40) that causes the wheel to be in face plant mode.  I have already determined that this is the condition of my wheel.  I am posting this so that other wheel owners know that this sort of failure is possible and that they need to verify that they are still getting over speed warnings on their wheels before they end up going face first into the pavement.

[FullTilt]

1 hour ago, Jeff Bierlink said:

I'm not sure what the temperature was when I had the cut out but it was not that hot out.  The potential impact from battery and heat seem like not the primary cause for the cut out since the tilt back and beep warnings are non functional.  I could have a perfect functioning battery on the coldest day of the year here in GA and this One E+ would still not give me any indication of pushing its speed limit.  This wheel is almost fully functional.  The tilt backs and warning beeps only work in limited mode.  Something has failed on this board or maybe in the firmware (v1.40) that causes the wheel to be in face plant mode.  I have already determined that this is the condition of my wheel.  I am posting this so that other wheel owners know that this sort of failure is possible and that they need to verify that they are still getting over speed warnings on their wheels before they end up going face first into the pavement.

I also don't feel tiltbacks and can barely hear beeps (rather I've developed a feel for when it starts feeling weak and I backoff), but I mainly rely on my pebble watch to buzz me when going near the top end of speed or to monitor and gently cruise 20-24 kph when around 30% or so battery left. At around this battery level (where you experienced cut out) the wheel does start feeling quite weak to me and I adjust my riding style accordingly. My feeling is your cut out might be due to suddenly overpowering the wheel for example by accelerating into a sudden lean back while going down a grade (which would've been fine if you had more charge), perhaps also mixing in a bit of uneven terrain, requiring more amps than the wheel could handle. 

Did you try enaon's test? Maybe after you finish charging?

On 7/10/2020 at 11:20 AM, enaon said:

Do this test, first after a power on, then after a power on with the phone connected and check if there is different behaivour. This video demonstrates the bug, the tiltback should have kicked in, it does not.

 

 

I've just tested mine again (shutdown after beeps and flashing red-lights indicate that tiltback kicked in):

 

[enaon]

13 hours ago, Jeff Bierlink said:

I am still able to take this wheel upto 9 kph without any tilt back or beeps.  It could probably go faster but I'm not willing to risk it.  From what I can tell, this wheel is not working as it is meant to work.  

I think it is working as it should, the low battery limmit is at 12 kph not 9. There is a second limit at 4kpm I think, but that is right before the end. Also, limmit has more to do with voltage drop that battery persentage. Ever since I installed 30 q30 samsung batteries more, I get no tiltbacks, but they do work, If I press the wheel when battery is empty it will happen, just not on regular use anymore. 

[enaon]

11 hours ago, Paradoxedgewater said:

My ninebot shows a drive voltage of 60.6v.  the charger is a 61VDC charger.  I don't thin
k this is out of line.

It might be, 60.6 is low, I also have the excact same charger, we all do I belive, the battery should go to ~62Volts on that charger when left charging for 4-5 hours more  after light is green. 

On what firmware version are you on?

Edited July 22, 2020 by enaon

[Chriull]

3 minutes ago, enaon said:

It might be, 60.6 is low, I also have the excact same charger, we all do I belive, the battery should go to ~62Volts on that charger left charging for 4-5 hours more  after light is green. 

 

A 61V charger will only charge to 61V (minus some "losses" from the protection circuitry).

But neither charger nor the wheels internal voltage measurement are precision devices - so wasting thoughts about a ~1V difference makes no sense.

To really measure the battery voltage within a tenth of a volt one would need a properly calibrated voltmeter with an accuracy better than +/-0.1%.

... just if reported voltage on one and the same wheel drops over time one should start to "analyze"...

Ps.: The 61V charger is most presumably a 63V charger (4.2 V * 15 cells =63V) , just output voltage adjust to this a bit lower 61V.

14 minutes ago, enaon said:

when left charging for 4-5 hours more  after light is green. 

Should be "quite useless" maybe even unnecessary stress for the battery. Depending in detail on the current threshold at which the charger engages the green led. Something roughly about 0.5 hours (if any time at all) should be more than enough:

 

[enaon]

30 minutes ago, Chriull said:

A 61V charger will only charge to 61V (minus some "losses" from the protection circuitry).

61V charger is most presumably a 63V charger (4.2 V * 15 cells =63V) , just output voltage adjust to this a bit lower 61V.

Should be "quite useless" maybe even unnecessary stress for the battery. Depending in detail on the current threshold at which the charger engages the green led. Something roughly about 0.5 hours (if any time at all) should be more than enough:

 

I have dismantled the batteries several times and did mesurments io individual cells, the ninebot's bms charges etch cell to 4.15volts if all callibrated, so the charger (the 61 version) can give 62.25. The hole point on looking at the voltage after some hours, it to get an idea about calibration, 1 volt difference is too much, it most probably means an uncalibrated battery.

We need not the absolute numbers though, as long as we have the same firmware and charger, we just need to know that it is at a number that is considered good if the battery is calibrated. 

at 63 volts the ninebot beeps, turns the pedals and shuts off, overvoltage protection, has hapened to me once when going downhill.

Edited July 22, 2020 by enaon

[enaon]

Just as a note, the hole point of having a battery that is calibrated, is safety. It makes no real difference when the battery is full, but is makes a lot of difference if on the empty side.

If a cell is uncalibtated, say it is at 4 volts when all others are on 4.15, the battery will still report 62.1 volts after the light gets green, if two are on 4 volts, it will say 61.9, no big deal ok. But if the battery gets empty, those cells that are low, will get even lower and trigger a low battery protection when the pack is pushed, a cutoff will happen if one is not carefull and drive hard on low battery. 

It is best to not let the battery fall bellow 20% at anytime, it is then that the pack gets uncalibrated, and the bms of the ninebot can do very little to calibrate again, it needs days, not hours to really calibrate the battery. 

Edited July 22, 2020 by enaon

[Paradox]

1 hour ago, enaon said:

It might be, 60.6 is low, I also have the excact same charger, we all do I belive, the battery should go to ~62Volts on that charger when left charging for 4-5 hours more  after light is green. 

On what firmware version are you on?

This is the reading a few days after charging it to 100%.  I will check right after charging it next time.  I am on firmware 1.40. 

[Jeff Bierlink]

Originally my One E+, on version 1.40, is in full tiltback mode in the sub 15%; it was barely rideable (I did that one time trying to get back home).  it would have been virtually impossible to get over 4 Kph.  Yet somehow recently, the wheel functionality has changed.  I was able to ride the wheel at 9kph even when the battery was down as low as 13%.  There was absolutely no hint of a tilt back and not a single beep.  I should at least be getting the low battery beeps correct?  This wheel, even though it is quite rideable, it is not safe to do so because the overspeed tilt backs as far as I can tell, do not work.  I'm not ready to take the wheel over 16kph yet especially when I think the wheel is malfunctioning.  Do you think the wheel should be able to go 9kph at 13% (which I consider to be a very low battery) by all means let me now.  Do you think I need to get the speed up to 18 kph for a valid test of the tilt back functionality?

[enaon]

21 hours ago, Jeff Bierlink said:

Originally my One E+, on version 1.40, is in full tiltback mode in the sub 15%; it was barely rideable (I did that one time trying to get back home).  it would have been virtually impossible to get over 4 Kph.  Yet somehow recently, the wheel functionality has changed.  I was able to ride the wheel at 9kph even when the battery was down as low as 13%.  There was absolutely no hint of a tilt back and not a single beep.  I should at least be getting the low battery beeps correct?  This wheel, even though it is quite rideable, it is not safe to do so because the overspeed tilt backs as far as I can tell, do not work.  I'm not ready to take the wheel over 16kph yet especially when I think the wheel is malfunctioning.  Do you think the wheel should be able to go 9kph at 13% (which I consider to be a very low battery) by all means let me now.  Do you think I need to get the speed up to 18 kph for a valid test of the tilt back functionality?

there in no reasoning on being aftaid that a wheel on 1.40 firmware, stock, has the tilback feature broken. The low battery speed limmit is at 12kph, not 9. The 4khm limmit is the last frontier, you should not ride it that low, you will decalibrate your battery. The limmits have to do with voltage drop detected by the firmware, not battery persentage. There are no low battery beeps, beeps come before tiltbacks, regardless the battery percentage. 

So maybe it was a cold day and the battery was weak, maybe something else, but I see no reason for being afraid the tilback feature is broken. 

the easyest way to get the tilback engaged is to try to accelarate. The firmware will detect the voltage drop, will calculate that you will not have enoigph power, and will engage the tilback before reachng the 12 khp mark, when on low battery.

But, keep in mind the following: The tilback is happening becaue the firmware detects that power is low and is trying to keep you safe, but in doing so it uses more power, the tiltback action is power hungry. Never drive the wheel on tilbacks, don't use them if you can, it is then that it is most likely a cut off will happen if you push it. 

Edited July 24, 2020 by enaon

[Jeff Bierlink]

On the One E+ with the stock 1.40v firmware, What is the tilt back speed limit on a full battery?  Is that also current drop related?  Let's say that with a full battery, I can get the wheel up to 22 kph and I never get a tilt back, or would I have to go 25 kph to really test this?