Decisions, decisions

[eddiemoy]

On 8/21/2018 at 1:44 PM, Thai-lad said:

While I have decided I really want to get the new MCM5, I'm also debating first getting a used wheel as a learner wheel.  If so I want to get something with long term use potential, not something to outgrow and discard in a month. My options here are pretty limited, but there are a couple choices that seem reasonable.  Assuming that they are in good shape, no bent rims, cracked axles or worn out battery packs, which one would you go with?  And why?

FYI I am over 60 y.o. and 180 lbs, a complete newbie, don't expect to travel high speeds, have a short flat commute with good roads,  lots of local dirt and gravel neighborhood roads to explore, and the foothills of a major mountain range within a kilometer of my location that are beckoning, though hill climbing is something that can wait on the MCM5.

The two used wheels that have caught my interest are an ACM v2 820 w/h and a KS16S 840 w/h.  The Kingsong is $100 more.  Both are cosmetically clean.  I think either one would be a good first choice, seems many of you have had one or the other, some may have had both. If I get one of them then I'll wait till Xmas to buy the new MCM5.

Given the two choices, which one would you recommend?  I'm having a hard time deciding.

I have a KS16 (non S) and it was my main wheel for learning.  It is 5kmph slower than the KS16S, 400watts less power.  I've never padded it and it is built like a tank.  I still use it, that is still the wheel I keep in the back of my car for last mile runs.  It isn't too heavy.  The profile is better than the ACM in my opinion.  It is thinner so the stance is better, IMO.  I've had it for almost 2 years.  The tiltback on the 16S would also be mild.  I think the tiltback on the ACM would be unreliable and uncomfortable that is why all the gotway folks disable the tiltback.  No issues with tiltback on the KS16.  I ride tiltback all day.

Question, why are you looking at the MCM5?  that is a 14" wheel.  not as easy to ride as a 16 or 18" wheel for longer distances.  I would say the 14" wheel and below are for tricks or for smaller kids, IMO, not for real riding.  

Good luck on picking up EUC, remember in the beginning it feels impossible.  It also help to think of it as a bike or when you first started learning on a bike.  Go at a good clip, little faster than walking or else it is difficult to learn.  remember how hard it is to go slow on a bike.  

[RockyTop]

1 hour ago, Marty Backe said:

FYI, since the introduction of the Tesla (2017), the Gotway shims are no longer an issue. This is because with that model, Gotway introduced the steel backing plate which makes it impossible for the axle to distort the shims over time.

So we need to start putting the shim issue to bed for all contemporary Gotway wheels.

The shims were a bad design. They fixed it by adding a band-aide to the side. (thin metal wrench that can also allow movement.) The shims are cut into the structure and weaken the arm.  The pedal hinge is also poorly designed.  KingSong is far superior in both designs.  When I get the time I plan on get the new bigger KS pedals and machine new arms KingSong style for my MSuper.  Or just refit KS arms with pedals to the MSuper.  (higher pedals? )  I can feel the GotWay arms and pedals bend and flex. I do not ever feel flex on the KS16s.    (I have 5 tons of Bridgeport and Southbend in my basement)

[Marcglider]

59 minutes ago, US69 said:

I dont say its worse...i just say it does not have the punch and power...the 16s is about a year newer, and more advanced(even steadily updated) firmware and able to use all  the 67volt can give. till yesterday i had the ACM here...yes 12mosfets...and i am quit sure you would say the same if you would have direct comparison.

Its not bad...its just defintitly older technique...on acceleration the first second you have a weak pedal..after that it gets harder.

On the newer 84volt version (especially on the ACM2) this all isnt anymore a problem and those newer ACM are then more advanced then a 16s, no question....

And btw.: You wont make an argument, that just because both are 67volt they must be the same? Then i would ask how in the world the Z10 can be any good wheel...with its 58v compared to nowadays 84volt wheels ;-)

That are all just marketing numbers...and sometimes quite funny clames as some producers claim a max wattage...that the battery isnt even able to give :-) And KS can play that game also btw

Something interesting... when I updated my 16S to the version .05, my wheel felt like it got a little turbocharged... acceleration got better, response got better... it felt Great... what an improvement... I guess my observation is that the firmware, programming, etc. can control quite a bit regarding the performance of these wheels... voltage, yada, yada sounds good but I think ultimately the things we have issues with and the control of our experience is up to the programmers of the firmware... just saying... 

[Thai-lad]

I appreciate all the responses.  I wasn't, however, trying to start a generic Gotway vs Kingsong brand comparison.  I was looking to get feedback on the two models available, particularly as applies to my own particular set of needs, it just happened they were these two brands.  Probably inevitable, however, was that the overall Gotway vs Kingsong differences would be part of the consideration.  Especially as the ACM is an older wheel, without the recent improvements.

So, just to summarize, the Gotway has a poorer pedal shim design that loosens over time.  It has a poorer trolley handle design and the case isn't as sturdy.  It has a bigger motor which mostly translates to a higher top speed, low speed torque probably won't feel that different between the two models, especially to a complete beginner riding on the soft or intermediate settings.  On the other hand, I can pad the wheel to protect it from minor dings, I won't be jumping many curbs (just a few to learn the technique, in case I need to use it unexpectedly) so I won't be stressing the axle or pedals that much (and I'm not that heavy).  And I won't be trolleying, I'll be carrying it up stairs by the handle. Weight between the two is about the same.  The higher top end speed of the Gotway is something I'll never experience, however, as if I want to go far or fast I have a motorbike.  I'll probably top out around 20 - 25 km/hr and stick with that (famous last words?).

On the other hand, the KS is narrower and will be more comfortable to ride, and better built so it will probably last longer without repair.  Plus there is a reputable local dealer who can get me parts, and it's a model that is still in production so parts should be available for some time to come.  But that means it's a bit more expensive, even as a used wheel.

Neither one, however, is my ideal wheel, but mostly a learning tool and a means for me to begin using a wheel for my very short commute.  For which a much less expensive older "beater" wheel might also suffice, and I could resell it after I learned to ride.   Soooo....  I will decide over the weekend.  Wish there were other people around here with wheels, but I'll be the first.  The KS dealer couple referred to earlier are 3 hours away.  But their successful 70 year old student gives me encouragement and confirms that I've not completely lost my mind

I live close to the blue "2013" label, commute daily to the small reservoirs directly to the right, and have never explored the mountains at the top (which have footpaths, but not roads) or even much of the poorly paved/dirt roads on the flatland  next to the river and multiple streams.  It's just too hot to do that much exertion on foot (80F+ daily), and my bike is not really suited to navigating potholes, it's really a street bike.  I'll need a highly maneuverable wheel with high torque to handle both the poor condition roads, and maybe footpaths into the hills.  But one light enough to carry up a couple flights of stairs.  And fast enough to not waste too much time commuting on the smooth, well paved run to work.  Hence my interest in an MCM5.

[esaj]

11 hours ago, RockyTop said:

 (I have 5 tons of Bridgeport and Southbend in my basement)

I was somewhat ridiculed sometime ago for suggesting that some people might actually have industrial CNC-routers/lathes at home and be capable of machining their own parts...    My relatives imported Bridgeport & Huyndai CNCs from late 80's to early 2000's, those things cost (and weight) a ton though.

[RockyTop]

9 hours ago, Thai-lad said:

I appreciate all the responses.  I wasn't, however, trying to start a generic Gotway vs Kingsong brand comparison.  I was looking to get feedback on the two models available, particularly as applies to my own particular set of needs, it just happened they were these two brands.  Probably inevitable, however, was that the overall Gotway vs Kingsong differences would be part of the consideration.  Especially as the ACM is an older wheel, without the recent improvements.

So, just to summarize, the Gotway has a poorer pedal shim design that loosens over time.  It has a poorer trolley handle design and the case isn't as sturdy.  It has a bigger motor which mostly translates to a higher top speed, low speed torque probably won't feel that different between the two models, especially to a complete beginner riding on the soft or intermediate settings.  On the other hand, I can pad the wheel to protect it from minor dings, I won't be jumping many curbs (just a few to learn the technique, in case I need to use it unexpectedly) so I won't be stressing the axle or pedals that much (and I'm not that heavy).  And I won't be trolleying, I'll be carrying it up stairs by the handle. Weight between the two is about the same.  The higher top end speed of the Gotway is something I'll never experience, however, as if I want to go far or fast I have a motorbike.  I'll probably top out around 20 - 25 km/hr and stick with that (famous last words?).

On the other hand, the KS is narrower and will be more comfortable to ride, and better built so it will probably last longer without repair.  Plus there is a reputable local dealer who can get me parts, and it's a model that is still in production so parts should be available for some time to come.  But that means it's a bit more expensive, even as a used wheel.

Neither one, however, is my ideal wheel, but mostly a learning tool and a means for me to begin using a wheel for my very short commute.  For which a much less expensive older "beater" wheel might also suffice, and I could resell it after I learned to ride.   Soooo....  I will decide over the weekend.  Wish there were other people around here with wheels, but I'll be the first.  The KS dealer couple referred to earlier are 3 hours away.  But their successful 70 year old student gives me encouragement and confirms that I've not completely lost my mind

I live close to the blue "2013" label, commute daily to the small reservoirs directly to the right, and have never explored the mountains at the top (which have footpaths, but not roads) or even much of the poorly paved/dirt roads on the flatland  next to the river and multiple streams.  It's just too hot to do that much exertion on foot (80F+ daily), and my bike is not really suited to navigating potholes, it's really a street bike.  I'll need a highly maneuverable wheel with high torque to handle both the poor condition roads, and maybe footpaths into the hills.  But one light enough to carry up a couple flights of stairs.  And fast enough to not waste too much time commuting on the smooth, well paved run to work.  Hence my interest in an MCM5.

Wow!  You got it!  Didn't miss a thing.  

[US69]

12 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

It's not like the Tesla was released a couple of months ago. But I know you needs lots of proof, so we'll wait a couple of years 

It have been mostly the 18inch and even more the 22inch wheels which had that problem, and you know that :-)

Yeah, we speak again in a couple of years, when you finally have reached 500-800km on your MSX....and will do a video of „How to fix the axle nuts on a MSX“ 

And when we are allready here: I know why recently none of your wheels failed.....you just split the usage under the 10wheels, so each only gets used all 2 to 3 weeks for some miles 

Ha.... 

[esaj]

9 hours ago, Thai-lad said:

Wish there were other people around here with wheels, but I'll be the first.  The KS dealer couple referred to earlier are 3 hours away.  But their successful 70 year old student gives me encouragement and confirms that I've not completely lost my mind

I live close to the blue "2013" label, commute daily to the small reservoirs directly to the right, and have never explored the mountains at the top (which have footpaths, but not roads) or even much of the poorly paved/dirt roads on the flatland  next to the river and multiple streams.

Had to look that up, we're heading for Thailand (and then Laos, Vietnam & Cambodia) in about a month, but it's a bit off of our planned route (we're going from Bangkok to Ayutthaya, then towards Sukhothai and ultimately Chiang Mai & Chiang Rai before heading for the Lao border). Not that our route or timing is set in stone (except for flights from home and back), since we'll be backpacking...

[US69]

Just now, esaj said:

Had to look that up, we're heading for Thailand (and then Laos, Vietnam & Cambodia) in about a month, but it's a bit off of our planned route (we're going from Bangkok to Ayutthaya, then towards Sukhothai and ultimately Chiang Mai & Chiang Rai before heading for the Lao border). Not that our route or timing is set in stone, since we'll be backpacking...

You are lucky :-)

Sounds great! how long goes the tour?

[US69]

11 hours ago, Marcglider said:

Something interesting... when I updated my 16S to the version .05, my wheel felt like it got a little turbocharged... acceleration got better, response got better... it felt Great... what an improvement... I guess my observation is that the firmware, programming, etc. can control quite a bit regarding the performance of these wheels... voltage, yada, yada sounds good but I think ultimately the things we have issues with and the control of our experience is up to the programmers of the firmware... just saying... 

Yeah, absolutly, thats really one of the benefits of firmware upgrades...can give you anearly new type of wheel after time!

Had that experience now twice...once on a KS18A and not so far ago on the 18S! Fantastic improvements :-)

[esaj]

1 minute ago, US69 said:

You are lucky :-)

Sounds great! how long goes the tour?

A couple of days under three months, we've planned a route with places we'd like to visit going in a "circle" from Bangkok to northern Thailand, through northern Laos, then Vietnam from north to south, and returning to Thailand (our trip starts and ends in Bangkok) through Cambodia. 

[US69]

2 minutes ago, esaj said:

A couple of days under three months, we've planned a route with places we'd like to visit going in a "circle" from Bangkok to northern Thailand, through northern Laos, then Vietnam from north to south, and returning to Thailand (our trip starts and ends in Bangkok) through Cambodia. 

Good plan!! 3 months  Great....you will have a fantastic time! I love south east asia and especially Thailand :-)

Country, people...FOOD! 

[mezzanine]

1 hour ago, US69 said:

Yeah, absolutly, thats really one of the benefits of firmware upgrades...can give you anearly new type of wheel after time!

Had that experience now twice...once on a KS18A and not so far ago on the 18S! Fantastic improvements :-)

I'm really amazed that the firmware upgrade doesn't kill the battery life considering how much more torque there is.  I don't understand how it's possible.  

[mezzanine]

1 hour ago, US69 said:

It have been mostly the 18inch and even more the 22inch wheels which had that problem, and you know that :-)

Yeah, we speak again in a couple of years, when you finally have reached 500-800km on your MSX....and will do a video of „How to fix the axle nuts on a MSX“ 

And when we are allready here: I know why recently none of your wheels failed.....you just split the usage under the 10wheels, so each only gets used all 2 to 3 weeks for some miles 

Ha.... 

 

I've never been part of a tech forum that is so small.  It's been a real education in what goes wrong when a community is too small to provide the checks and balances that occur with larger forums. 

I feel really bad for newbs that come here trying to get good information and tried to improve the culture of accountability for providing biased opinions, but it's a losing battle.  

[Marty Backe]

1 hour ago, US69 said:

It have been mostly the 18inch and even more the 22inch wheels which had that problem, and you know that :-)

Yeah, we speak again in a couple of years, when you finally have reached 500-800km on your MSX....and will do a video of „How to fix the axle nuts on a MSX“ 

And when we are allready here: I know why recently none of your wheels failed.....you just split the usage under the 10wheels, so each only gets used all 2 to 3 weeks for some miles 

Ha.... 

You discovered my secret. That's why after 20-months I only have ~1400km (900-miles) on my Monster 

[RockyTop]

1 hour ago, mezzanine said:

 

I've never been part of a tech forum that is so small.  It's been a real education in what goes wrong when a community is too small to provide the checks and balances that occur with larger forums. 

I feel really bad for newbs that come here trying to get good information and tried to improve the culture of accountability for providing biased opinions, but it's a losing battle.  

@mezzanine I agree,  you would be much better spending your time on other forums. This forum is not really suitable for a troll of you high stature. Your high intellect quips are wasted on such a small forum.  You could tell billions of people on other forums how great you are.

Most people that are smart and successful don’t have to prove it on a small forum.  Think bigger!   ( enough said, don’t feed the trolls) 

[mezzanine]

3 minutes ago, RockyTop said:

@mezzanine I agree,  you would be much better spending your time on other forums. This forum is not really suitable for a troll of you high stature. Your high intellect quips are wasted on such a small forum.  You could tell billions of people on other forums how great you are.

Most people that are smart and successful don’t have to prove it on a small forum.  Think bigger!   ( enough said, don’t feed the trolls) 

You seem really angry!  

 

 

[US69]

2 hours ago, mezzanine said:

 

I've never been part of a tech forum that is so small.  It's been a real education in what goes wrong when a community is too small to provide the checks and balances that occur with larger forums. 

I feel really bad for newbs that come here trying to get good information and tried to improve the culture of accountability for providing biased opinions, but it's a losing battle.  

Did you -somehow- oversee the 4! fat  smilies and the ironic/sarcastic „ha...“? @Marty Backe and i are just kidding with each other....

And we both know that its just fun! Thankfully -even when we both have our favorites- we can agree to the weakness of them, and have a lough about it.....

[mezzanine]

22 minutes ago, US69 said:

Did you -somehow- oversee the 4! fat  smilies and the ironic/sarcastic „ha...“? @Marty Backe and i are just kidding with each other....

And we both know that its just fun! Thankfully -even when we both have our favorites- we can agree to the weakness of them, and have a lough about it.....

My observations was more general.  I shouldn't have quoted you and apologize.   

Another thing I've learned about really small forums like this one- they're very cliquey!  You and Marty are on here all day every day.  

I do think you equivocate in the interests of getting along due to the cliquey aspect.  In a bigger forum, it wouldn't happen because the marketplace of ideas would take precedent.  A newb would read this thread and come to the conclusion that yours and Marty's opinion are equally valid.  That's not actually helping anyone and you might just be enabling.  

[GamingBarbecue256]

4 hours ago, mezzanine said:

 

I've never been part of a tech forum that is so small.  It's been a real education in what goes wrong when a community is too small to provide the checks and balances that occur with larger forums. 

I feel really bad for newbs that come here trying to get good information and tried to improve the culture of accountability for providing biased opinions, but it's a losing battle.  

Meh, the big forums that I've been on tend to just have different biases. They may be less obvious, but the group-think is still really strong.

Basically, it is really hard to "get informed" from a forum.

[Marty Backe]

7 hours ago, US69 said:

Did you -somehow- oversee the 4! fat  smilies and the ironic/sarcastic „ha...“? @Marty Backe and i are just kidding with each other....

And we both know that its just fun! Thankfully -even when we both have our favorites- we can agree to the weakness of them, and have a lough about it.....

mezzanine has no sense of humor so I doubt that he noticed your smilies 

[Hunka Hunka Burning Love]

  Aw com'on guys.  Let's all try to get along and skip the little insults and jabs at one another?   We're supposed to be one big happy family of one wheel riders.  We all have our own opinions and whether right or wrong, we should express them and respect each other for doing so in a friendly manner.  Can't we all just get along?  

Spoiler

 

 

[mezzanine]

46 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

mezzanine has no sense of humor so I doubt that he noticed your smilies 

I laugh pretty hard at how terrible you are at speaking at all coherently in your vids.  

  Keep posting on an internet forum literally 24/7, superstar!    

[Thai-lad]

13 hours ago, esaj said:

A couple of days under three months, we've planned a route with places we'd like to visit going in a "circle" from Bangkok to northern Thailand, through northern Laos, then Vietnam from north to south, and returning to Thailand (our trip starts and ends in Bangkok) through Cambodia. 

3 months and no wheels?  You'll suffer extreme withdrawal symptoms!

Seriously, sounds like you'll be having a great trip...

[Thai-lad]

Made a long journey by public transpo to and from Bangkok today, in crowded vans with inadequate aircon.  But now l finally own an EUC.  Really tired and beat, but it was worth it.  Can't wait for the morning   Should I make a video??? Nah... everybody's already seen enough noobies struggling with their first time, right?  Seriously, how hard can it be?