Thai-lad Posted August 21, 2018 Share Posted August 21, 2018 While I have decided I really want to get the new MCM5, I'm also debating first getting a used wheel as a learner wheel. If so I want to get something with long term use potential, not something to outgrow and discard in a month. My options here are pretty limited, but there are a couple choices that seem reasonable. Assuming that they are in good shape, no bent rims, cracked axles or worn out battery packs, which one would you go with? And why? FYI I am over 60 y.o. and 180 lbs, a complete newbie, don't expect to travel high speeds, have a short flat commute with good roads, lots of local dirt and gravel neighborhood roads to explore, and the foothills of a major mountain range within a kilometer of my location that are beckoning, though hill climbing is something that can wait on the MCM5. The two used wheels that have caught my interest are an ACM v2 820 w/h and a KS16S 840 w/h. The Kingsong is $100 more. Both are cosmetically clean. I think either one would be a good first choice, seems many of you have had one or the other, some may have had both. If I get one of them then I'll wait till Xmas to buy the new MCM5. Given the two choices, which one would you recommend? I'm having a hard time deciding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meepmeepmayer Posted August 21, 2018 Share Posted August 21, 2018 Get the 16S. 67.2V ACMs are kind of old now, and I wouldn't know any advantage they have over the 16S, while the 16S has a lot of advantages (quality, speed, handle). You sure it is a 16S and not a 16C (non-S)? In my view, a 16S is definitely the better choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Backe Posted August 21, 2018 Share Posted August 21, 2018 1 hour ago, meepmeepmayer said: Get the 16S. 67.2V ACMs are kind of old now, and I wouldn't know any advantage they have over the 16S, while the 16S has a lot of advantages (quality, speed, handle). You sure it is a 16S and not a 16C (non-S)? In my view, a 16S is definitely the better choice. I don't know, I think the 67-volt ACM is still probably faster than the 16S, and with no speed throttling of the KingSong. I'm pretty sure the ACM has a more powerful motor than the 16S. Yes, the 16S has a better build quality along with the built-in trolley handle. But I would still buy the ACM (I owned that model and I know the person that still rides it - still working like a champ). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egiljo Posted August 21, 2018 Share Posted August 21, 2018 3 hours ago, Thai-lad said: While I have decided I really want to get the new MCM5, I'm also debating first getting a used wheel as a learner wheel. If so I want to get something with long term use potential, not something to outgrow and discard in a month. My options here are pretty limited, but there are a couple choices that seem reasonable. Assuming that they are in good shape, no bent rims, cracked axles or worn out battery packs, which one would you go with? And why? FYI I am over 60 y.o. and 180 lbs, a complete newbie, don't expect to travel high speeds, have a short flat commute with good roads, lots of local dirt and gravel neighborhood roads to explore, and the foothills of a major mountain range within a kilometer of my location that are beckoning, though hill climbing is something that can wait on the MCM5. The two used wheels that have caught my interest are an ACM v2 820 w/h and a KS16S 840 w/h. The Kingsong is $100 more. Both are cosmetically clean. I think either one would be a good first choice, seems many of you have had one or the other, some may have had both. If I get one of them then I'll wait till Xmas to buy the new MCM5. Given the two choices, which one would you recommend? I'm having a hard time deciding. I would go budget and buy the ACM, then see if 16 inch is the right size before you decide on your next wheel. You would also be +100$ for your next wheel (if needed) or for buying good protective gear. Since you have lots of gravel and dirt roads + mountain to explore you may want a +18 inch instead of a 14 inch to complement your 16 inch in the future. This will be easier for you to decide after using the 16 inch for a while. The ACM should be more than good enough for an all purpose (starter) wheel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thai-lad Posted August 22, 2018 Author Share Posted August 22, 2018 5 hours ago, Marty Backe said: I don't know, I think the 67-volt ACM is still probably faster than the 16S, and with no speed throttling of the KingSong. I'm pretty sure the ACM has a more powerful motor than the 16S. Yes, the 16S has a better build quality along with the built-in trolley handle. But I would still buy the ACM (I owned that model and I know the person that still rides it - still working like a champ). I know you're not a fan of KS speed throttling, but you're an experienced rider. How about us noobs? How do we judge if we're over stressing a partially depleted pack on a Gotway? On a KS I understand the tiltback/warning speed depends on battery charge percent. While frustrating, it seems safer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Backe Posted August 22, 2018 Share Posted August 22, 2018 18 minutes ago, Thai-lad said: I know you're not a fan of KS speed throttling, but you're an experienced rider. How about us noobs? How do we judge if we're over stressing a partially depleted pack on a Gotway? On a KS I understand the tiltback/warning speed depends on battery charge percent. While frustrating, it seems safer? I've said many a time that I believe Gotway wheels can be configured to be just as safe as KingSong wheels. You can set the tilt-back to a reasonable upper speed (say the upper speed of the 16S) and still have a lot of safety margin and leave one or both alarms on. But even if you don't do those things, all you have to do is stay below the 3rd alarm speed (which you can't disable) and you'll be safe. With the newer Gotway wheels the 3rd alarm speed does decrease with battery but much less conservatively than KingSong. So with KingSong, you end up riding the tilt-back as the battery gets lower. With Gotway you ride the 3rd alarm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esper Posted August 22, 2018 Share Posted August 22, 2018 Personally, I'd go for the ACM as a long term starter wheel. There is really only one reason I am suggesting it and that is because of Marty's trip to a dam where he got lost and had to get rescued. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fat Unicyclist Posted August 23, 2018 Share Posted August 23, 2018 Other riders have said that, "If you could only have one wheel, the KS-16S is a great all-rounder." And I agree! If you're not quite sure when, where and how much you will use your wheel, the 16S is a great choice as it will fit in anywhere. There may be wheels better for any single given purpose, but if you want to cover all your bases, the 16S should get you where you want to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thai-lad Posted August 23, 2018 Author Share Posted August 23, 2018 Hey ya'll aren't making this any easier... meepmeep 16S Marty ACM egiljo ACM esper ACM TFU 16S Anybody owned both and can give a hands on comparison?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrelwood Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 This is a question that was bound to get opposing opinions... I haven’t even ridden the ACM, but just from reading the forum I think the unconventionally wide standing position on the ACM has gotten more negative comments than that of the 16S. One really big plus for the 16S is also the trolley handle. ACM relies on 3rd party aftermarket trolleys you install yourself at an unconvenient position (most of questionable quality), while the 16S has the best behaving trolley available for any EUC, as long as it hasn’t been misused. I think the ACM is a heavier wheel, and the 16S is better built. The speed throttling of the KingSong won’t probably bother you until you’re done with a good amount of miles. The hobby is known to have awaken the speed demon in a lot of us... One minus for 16S goes for the high-pitched whine that is loud enough to bother some of us. Although, I think the old ACM isn’t very quiet either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Backe Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 7 hours ago, mrelwood said: This is a question that was bound to get opposing opinions... I haven’t even ridden the ACM, but just from reading the forum I think the unconventionally wide standing position on the ACM has gotten more negative comments than that of the 16S. One really big plus for the 16S is also the trolley handle. ACM relies on 3rd party aftermarket trolleys you install yourself at an unconvenient position (most of questionable quality), while the 16S has the best behaving trolley available for any EUC, as long as it hasn’t been misused. I think the ACM is a heavier wheel, and the 16S is better built. The speed throttling of the KingSong won’t probably bother you until you’re done with a good amount of miles. The hobby is known to have awaken the speed demon in a lot of us... One minus for 16S goes for the high-pitched whine that is loud enough to bother some of us. Although, I think the old ACM isn’t very quiet either. Minor correction - the ACM has a Gotway manufactured trolley handle that fits perfectly. It's not an aftermarket part. However, I agree that the KingSong trolley handles are the best across the board. The wider stand of the ACM makes for superb handling. But I agree it takes a little getting use to. The ACM is a high performance car. The 16S is a sedan. The ACM is my favorite wheel, so your spear throwing pains my heart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tscottn Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 If i knew then what I know now I would have bought a KS 16S as my first wheel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
US69 Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 On 8/21/2018 at 11:02 PM, Marty Backe said: I don't know, I think the 67-volt ACM is still probably faster than the 16S, and with no speed throttling of the KingSong. I'm pretty sure the ACM has a more powerful motor than the 16S. On this i have to higly disagree...the 84V ACM has for sure more Punch than the 16S...but the 67Volt ACM is really a Kind of older Wheel. I owned one until yesterday...and the Firmware on it is not comparable to the 84V versions...it is really a Kind of seasaw or Swinging boat ;-) @Thai-lad I have another nice Argument for the 16S: I know the couple which owns KS Thailand and they are just phantastic. They will even give you some driving Hours and lately they teached a 70Year old how to drive an Euc :-) He directly bought 2 wheels from them, i guess it was an 16s and 18L..... So a good Chance to take a step into the EUC community :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egiljo Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 1 hour ago, US69 said: they teached a 70Year old how to drive an Euc :-) He directly bought 2 wheels from them, i guess it was an 16s and 18L..... So a good Chance to take a step into the EUC community :-) That's fantastic, I hope my health will let me ride when I'm 70 ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerome Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 Choose the prettier one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Backe Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 3 hours ago, US69 said: On this i have to higly disagree...the 84V ACM has for sure more Punch than the 16S...but the 67Volt ACM is really a Kind of older Wheel. I owned one until yesterday...and the Firmware on it is not comparable to the 84V versions...it is really a Kind of seasaw or Swinging boat ;-) @Thai-lad I have another nice Argument for the 16S: I know the couple which owns KS Thailand and they are just phantastic. They will even give you some driving Hours and lately they teached a 70Year old how to drive an Euc :-) He directly bought 2 wheels from them, i guess it was an 16s and 18L..... So a good Chance to take a step into the EUC community :-) The 67-volt ACM may be an older wheel, but it's the same voltage as the KS16S and I believe it has a more powerful motor. Certainly does not speed throttle. I like the firm mode on the new wheels, but I still enjoy the soft mode sometimes (what you call seasaw). Except for the firmness of the pedals and no trolley handle, tell me exactly why the ACM is worse than the 16S? Yours had 12-MOSFETs, correct? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockyTop Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 KS16s, I am a GotWay fanboy. I love my GotWay but you asked about a beginner wheel. The GotWay wheels do not take a beating well. IMHO I think that the KS16s is the most powerful wheel that a beginner can learn on and not destroy and enjoy after learning to ride. I don’t know too many people at 60 years old that want to go faster than 22 mph on a wheel. @mrelwood has put over 5,800 miles on his KS16s. It is a time proven rugged wheel that stands as a gold standard. The ACM is a great wheel and I might prefer it now that I have learned to ride but the GotWay shell is easy to damage. It is brittle and is usually painted a different color than the true plastic. The KS16s uses a better plastic. (Used on dirt bikes) better plastic internal structure and is the same color plastic all the way through ( some have black spray rubber over black plastic.) Don’t get me started on the GotWay axel shims. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcglider Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 On 8/23/2018 at 7:04 AM, Thai-lad said: Anybody owned both and can give a hands on comparison?? I own both wheels... you cant go wrong with either... if down the road range and speed are an issue get the ACMv2 it has a higher top speed and the 1600wh will go 50+ miles on a charge... if upfront cost is an issue, here the price for the KS is about $260 less. If you plan on abusing the wheel a bit, can live with a top speed around 21mph and a range of around 30 miles, the build quality of KS is better... see if you can find owners local there and try both if possible... as I said both are GREAT wheels, I love them both, I have only owned the ACM for about 3 weeks so I am still partial to my16S but I am slowly swinging the other way, because of the speed and range specifically... Good Luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Backe Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 1 hour ago, RockyTop said: KS16s, I am a GotWay fanboy. I love my GotWay but you asked about a beginner wheel. The GotWay wheels do not take a beating well. IMHO I think that the KS16s is the most powerful wheel that a beginner can learn on and not destroy and enjoy after learning to ride. I don’t know too many people at 60 years old that want to go faster than 22 mph on a wheel. @mrelwood has put over 5,800 miles on his KS16s. It is a time proven rugged wheel that stands as a gold standard. The ACM is a great wheel and I might prefer it now that I have learned to ride but the GotWay shell is easy to damage. It is brittle and is usually painted a different color than the true plastic. The KS16s uses a better plastic. (Used on dirt bikes) better plastic internal structure and is the same color plastic all the way through ( some have black spray rubber over black plastic.) Don’t get me started on the GotWay axel shims. FYI, since the introduction of the Tesla (2017), the Gotway shims are no longer an issue. This is because with that model, Gotway introduced the steel backing plate which makes it impossible for the axle to distort the shims over time. So we need to start putting the shim issue to bed for all contemporary Gotway wheels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcglider Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 3 minutes ago, Marty Backe said: FYI, since the introduction of the Tesla (2017), the Gotway shims are no longer an issue. This is because with that model, Gotway introduced the steel backing plate which makes it impossible for the axle to distort the shims over time. So we need to start putting the shim issue to bed for all contemporary Gotway wheels. EXACTLY... I was going to comment on that... glad you did... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
US69 Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 3 hours ago, Marty Backe said: tell me exactly why the ACM is worse than the 16S? I dont say its worse...i just say it does not have the punch and power...the 16s is about a year newer, and more advanced(even steadily updated) firmware and able to use all the 67volt can give. till yesterday i had the ACM here...yes 12mosfets...and i am quit sure you would say the same if you would have direct comparison. Its not bad...its just defintitly older technique...on acceleration the first second you have a weak pedal..after that it gets harder. On the newer 84volt version (especially on the ACM2) this all isnt anymore a problem and those newer ACM are then more advanced then a 16s, no question.... And btw.: You wont make an argument, that just because both are 67volt they must be the same? Then i would ask how in the world the Z10 can be any good wheel...with its 58v compared to nowadays 84volt wheels ;-) That are all just marketing numbers...and sometimes quite funny clames as some producers claim a max wattage...that the battery isnt even able to give :-) And KS can play that game also btw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
US69 Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 1 hour ago, Marty Backe said: So we need to start putting the shim issue to bed for all contemporary Gotway wheels. That would be nice...if that is in fact the case....but i will wait till some wheels have 1500miles plus before i agree to that. If that WOULD have been the case, i ask myself why GW has on the new MSX -again- changed the pedal arm build where the shims are and also put a aluminum bridge in the middle between the shims? ;-) Yeah, they progressed here...very good! But as these progresses are quite new i will wait a bit before i would say „putting this issue to bed“.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Backe Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 20 minutes ago, US69 said: That would be nice...if that is in fact the case....but i will wait till some wheels have 1500miles plus before i agree to that. If that WOULD have been the case, i ask myself why GW has on the new MSX -again- changed the pedal arm build where the shims are and also put a aluminum bridge in the middle between the shims? ;-) Yeah, they progressed here...very good! But as these progresses are quite new i will wait a bit before i would say „putting this issue to bed“.... I think enough time has passed. I haven't heard of any shim problems. It's not like the Tesla was released a couple of months ago. But I know you needs lots of proof, so we'll wait a couple of years Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
houseofjob Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 My 2 cents: Way too early to reserve judgement on the Gotway axle shim issue for this round. My 84V Monster shims loosened only after just under a year of regular ownership and use. These new models simply haven’t been out long enough. Plus the Gotway shim loosening issue is more pronounced on the larger wheels, especially the biggest 22” Monster, due to the increased torque forces. One of the reasons I sold my Monster was due to my annoyance of this issue and in hopes they will fix this for the next 22” redesign model. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fat Unicyclist Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 4 hours ago, Marty Backe said: Except for the firmness of the pedals and no trolley handle, tell me exactly why the ACM is worse than the 16S? With the latest firmware (and when set to experienced mode) the pedals on the 16S are ROCK SOLID! And that makes the wheel so very responsive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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