soulson Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 So how's this for a mod idea? So many people add new vents and extra cells to their wheels... Why not replace some MOSFETs? Parasitic gate capacitance could be an issue when replacing run-of-the-mill IRFxxx MOSFETs with an IGBT module of this heft, but with a proper driver circuit, it should work fine. I almost guarantee you won't blow one of these riding an ACM2 up a hill before the motor melts, the battery explodes, or you fry PCB traces. (Which would happen first I wonder?.. ?) https://www.ebay.com/p/MG400Q1US11-Toshiba-Power-Module-90-Days/1423790290?iid=283031639713&_trkparms=aid%3D555018%26algo%3DPL.SIM%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D53272%26meid%3D5a609229b12e420fb2bee0dd14696c70%26pid%3D100854%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D1%26%26itm%3D283031639713&_trksid=p2349526.c100854.m4779 I bought six of these for $150 total about six years ago for a different project, and that's just enough to build a hex bridge motor controller output stage like the Inmotion wheels use (I'm not sure what topology Gotway uses, but it's probably similar.) I don't have any Gotway wheels though, and it seems like Gotway firmware is the way to go if you want to push your wheel to hardware limits... (Not that I'd actually be racing out to go and do this if I did. It's probably not the world's safest idea.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
US69 Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 12 hours ago, Marty Backe said: Assuming that the production Z10 has the additional power and better heat dissipation that we've been promised, I think it's a fantastic general purpose wheel of exceptional build quality. I normally wouldn't recommend an 18-inch wheel to a beginner, but the Z10 feels more like a 16-inch wheel than the competitors 18-inch wheels, and therefore would be a great first wheel. „assuming“ is a nice word.... To be honest...that has to be proved! Announcing a third more power between a pre-production wheel and production is...courageous...to say it carefully....never seen a producer giving out „test wheels“ and saying...but hey, the production model is 33% more powerful... to be honest, i doubt that, until proved otherwise ? Looking for Martys production wheel then ? For the thread reason, the cut out of @Jrkline "Wheel Whisperer" on his ACM2...even with additional vents and what not..... These hills just draw to much power through the Mosfets, and i am on @Marty Backe side, when he said the wheels are just not constructed right enough to beware of such a „self destroy“ mode.... I also dont think that the temperature sensors are just not near enough....what is missing is a clear warning of drwaing to much amps for a too long time! And guys, please dont get me wrong! My guess is nearly all wheels are missing such a warning! So thats not against GW alone!!! What is right is, that the ACM2 is Msuperx, Tesla etc high power 2000Watt motor......but unfortunately(or stupidly?) build with the old parts, boards and mosfets! I have seen incredible hill climbs of the MsuperX...but remember, thats the new board with much more stronger mosfet package! Also as i just heard of @Alien Rides blowing mosfet on San Fran hills.....he has done it with a 2000Watt Msuper v3s „T“....which also has the same “old” mosfet board in it (or it might even been a 1500W older version, not totally sure).... My Conclusion: Pushing our wheels, whatever brand they are, through such crazy requirements....is just playing with your health! There is nothing to say against @Marty Backe fantastic trail ridings....but even he knows there are borders, of what is possible and what not! So just take care and dont do any crazy 50degree hills just to prove how phantastic your wheel is! Thats a kind of self-affirmation that nobody needs here! At least thats my 2 cents on this ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alien Rides Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 17 minutes ago, US69 said: Also as i just heard of @Alien Rides blowing mosfet on San Fran hills.....he has done it with a 2000Watt Msuper v3s „T“....which also has the same “old” mosfet board in it (or it might even been a 1500W older version, not totally sure).... I have blown mosfets on both the older 1500w (QJ) motor, and newer 2000w (HB) motor. These wheels definitely need more buffer room for a variety of conditions, and testing with heavier riders. You shouldn't have your $2k device blow up just because you took a wrong turn up (or down) a steep street. But maybe this is just a problem for the steep streets of San Francisco ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Backe Posted July 25, 2018 Author Share Posted July 25, 2018 3 hours ago, US69 said: „assuming“ is a nice word.... To be honest...that has to be proved! Announcing a third more power between a pre-production wheel and production is...courageous...to say it carefully....never seen a producer giving out „test wheels“ and saying...but hey, the production model is 33% more powerful... to be honest, i doubt that, until proved otherwise ? Looking for Martys production wheel then ? For the thread reason, the cut out of @Jrkline "Wheel Whisperer" on his ACM2...even with additional vents and what not..... These hills just draw to much power through the Mosfets, and i am on @Marty Backe side, when he said the wheels are just not constructed right enough to beware of such a „self destroy“ mode.... I also dont think that the temperature sensors are just not near enough....what is missing is a clear warning of drwaing to much amps for a too long time! And guys, please dont get me wrong! My guess is nearly all wheels are missing such a warning! So thats not against GW alone!!! What is right is, that the ACM2 is Msuperx, Tesla etc high power 2000Watt motor......but unfortunately(or stupidly?) build with the old parts, boards and mosfets! I have seen incredible hill climbs of the MsuperX...but remember, thats the new board with much more stronger mosfet package! Also as i just heard of @Alien Rides blowing mosfet on San Fran hills.....he has done it with a 2000Watt Msuper v3s „T“....which also has the same “old” mosfet board in it (or it might even been a 1500W older version, not totally sure).... My Conclusion: Pushing our wheels, whatever brand they are, through such crazy requirements....is just playing with your health! There is nothing to say against @Marty Backe fantastic trail ridings....but even he knows there are borders, of what is possible and what not! So just take care and dont do any crazy 50degree hills just to prove how phantastic your wheel is! Thats a kind of self-affirmation that nobody needs here! At least thats my 2 cents on this ? Well said. I will comment on your skepticism regarding the Z10. Cid Wong (Segway president) told me on Facebook that the production Z10's use different MOSFETs and therefore the wheel is much more powerful. He told me to redo my hill tests with the production wheel. Unless he is blatantly lying, I think the new wheel will perform better. He knows I'll be testing it and he'll look like a fool if I come back and say that the wheel is still under-powered. So I predict that you will be wrong. We will find out in a couple of months. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
US69 Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 1 hour ago, Marty Backe said: Well said. I will comment on your skepticism regarding the Z10. Cid Wong (Segwag president) told me on Facebook that the production Z10's use different MOSFETs and therefore the wheel is much more powerful. He told me to redo my hill tests with the production wheel. Unless he is blatantly lying, I think the new wheel will perform better. He knows I'll be testing it and he'll look like a fool if I come back and say that the wheel is still under-powered. So I predict that you will be wrong. We will find out in a couple of months. Ok, wow, thats sounds like a promise to believe ? And infos i didnt have before.... I already said that its phantastic what 9b gets out of such a low voltage! so i am curious to see the outcome on the production wheels! Really!!! But: Nonetheless just “new stronger Mosfets” dont make a wheel a third stronger! That just means that its hardware can take more stress, which you should know, too! So ok, then they seam to have also a new firmware, which draws 33% more power/amps from the batterys, because thats what torque is...it are amps! ? You can believe me, when we/you found out in a few months that i was wrong i am the first who admits that! promised a 100%!!! Its just.....a third more power? For me it still just sounds a bit of to much marketing..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 Does anyone know the actual physical dimensions for the Z10 with the pedals folded up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Backe Posted July 25, 2018 Author Share Posted July 25, 2018 41 minutes ago, US69 said: Ok, wow, thats sounds like a promise to believe ? And infos i didnt have before.... I already said that its phantastic what 9b gets out of such a low voltage! so i am curious to see the outcome on the production wheels! Really!!! But: Nonetheless just “new stronger Mosfets” dont make a wheel a third stronger! That just means that its hardware can take more stress, which you should know, too! So ok, then they seam to have also a new firmware, which draws 33% more power/amps from the batterys, because thats what torque is...it are amps! ? You can believe me, when we/you found out in a few months that i was wrong i am the first who admits that! promised a 100%!!! Its just.....a third more power? For me it still just sounds a bit of to much marketing..... OK. I think @US69 can be placed in the Highly Skeptical column I will say, that if you rode the Z10 you would be impressed by its power and would not believe that it's a Ninebot. I can't easily ride 25-mph and the wheel is not straining. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
US69 Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 17 minutes ago, Marty Backe said: OK. I think @US69 can be placed in the Highly Skeptical column I will say, that if you rode the Z10 you would be impressed by its power and would not believe that it's a Ninebot. I can't easily ride 25-mph and the wheel is not straining. Hey, that really wasnt meant ironic! i WAS and HAVE BEEN highly sceptical about the 59volt design and its power, but after seeing your videos and totally trusting your opinion, i totally reverted mine, too! so i am really impressed what it can do now allready......i am just a bit to sceptical about the announced “third” more power.... That just seams a bit much of a promise to me...thats all! other than that...i am allready striving to get/have one , too ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mimir Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 so one interesting thing about this failure is the mode... a MOSFET was missing a *lead*. this doesn't sound like a standard short-circuit / overcurrent failure. it might be an explosive decap that caused it- is there a picture of the damaged MOSFET- but... i can't find exact details for the packages of the FETs used on the ACM2 control board, but they're HY3712s, in what looks like some variant of a TO-220 package. From the HY3712 datasheet, we find this rather concerning chart- remember, a HY3712 is allegedly rated for 170A... The semiconductor may pass 170A. But the package is only rated for 75A... and this sort of failure, a missing lead, is exactly what I'd expect to see if this was a thermal issue with the *leads*- which aren't heatsinked except through the PCB traces. It's also possible they just mean the thermal resistance of the package prevents the dissipation of the heat generated by 75A, but then you'd expect to see it change with temperature. Not a flat line. tl;dr- are the new ACM2 transistors only actually rated for a sustained 75A (instead of the claimed 170)? apparently. is this because of the small leads in the TO-220 package? possibly. also note the "odd" thermal behavior before this failure. Only 50C... maybe a sudden surge caused a huge amount of power dissipation all at once and the junction temperature skyrocketed (not caught by overheat protection because of the thermal mass of the heatsink, etc.) but that temperature is, IIUC, measured at the heatsink. The temperature of the MOSFET leads (and the PCB connected to them, which would be the only other reasonably direct indication) could rise arbitrarily high... and there'd be no indication from the wheel's temperature measurements that anything whatsoever was wrong. Until a lead melts, experiences enough thermal expansion to crack the package around it, or just desolders itself, you fall on your face, and are now in the market for a new control board. (why didn't the MOSFET desolder itself here, if my theory is correct? Because of the heavy traces on the PCB it's connected to; the ends of the leads, and the solder joint, were effectively heatsinked. the rest of the lead? basically a fuse.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Backe Posted July 25, 2018 Author Share Posted July 25, 2018 11 minutes ago, Mimir said: so one interesting thing about this failure is the mode... a MOSFET was missing a *lead*. this doesn't sound like a standard short-circuit failure. it might be an explosive decap that caused it- is there a picture of the damaged MOSFET- but... i can't find exact details for the packages of the FETs used on the ACM2 control board, but they're HY3712s, in what looks like some variant of a TO-220 package. From the HY3712 datasheet, we find this rather concerning chart- remember, a HY3712 is allegedly rated for 170A... The semiconductor may pass 170A. But the package is only rated for 75A... and this sort of failure, a missing lead, is exactly what I'd expect to see if this was a thermal issue with the *leads*- which aren't heatsinked except through the PCB traces. It's also possible they just mean the thermal resistance of the package prevents the dissipation of the heat generated by 75A, but then you'd expect to see it change with temperature. Not a flat line. tl;dr- are the new ACM2 transistors only actually rated for a sustained 75A (instead of the claimed 170)? also note the "odd" thermal behavior before this failure. Only 50C... maybe a sudden surge caused a huge amount of power dissipation all at once and the junction temperature skyrocketed (not caught by overheat protection because of the thermal mass of the heatsink, etc.) but that temperature is, IIUC, measured at the heatsink. The temperature of the MOSFET leads (and the PCB connected to them, which would be the only other reasonably direct indication) could rise arbitrarily high... and there'd be no indication from the wheel's temperature measurements that anything whatsoever was wrong. Until a lead melts or just desolders itself, you fall on your face, and are now in the market for a new control board. Very nice. Too bad we don't have any insight into the control board design methodology. Wouldn't it be great to have a conversation with the Gotway engineer(s)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mimir Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 1 minute ago, Marty Backe said: Very nice. Too bad we don't have any insight into the control board design methodology. Wouldn't it be great to have a conversation with the Gotway engineer(s)? Yup- would probably be rather enlightening. Also- looking around for images of the ACM2 control board, best I could find was from one of your videos, and... All that thin metal, just sitting out in the already-toasty environment inside the wheel... and attached to an already-hot FET... I'm getting really suspicious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 I've gone ahead and put a deposit on the Z10. Would be nice if I could find the dimensions for the Z10 since I need it to fit in a specific space for transport. For now I am going to trust that the engineering and Segway expertise will make this a superior wheel. My understanding is the battery is made very well on the Z10. Easy to replace? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mimir Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 28 minutes ago, Marty Backe said: Very nice. Too bad we don't have any insight into the control board design methodology. Wouldn't it be great to have a conversation with the Gotway engineer(s)? Oh, one question- do you remember if you had to remove the heatsink to see the missing lead? (In other words, was it one of the "top" MOSFETs, or one of the ones normally hidden behind the heatsink? The top FETs have much longer leads, and if it was one of those that blew... well, I'm turning my WheelLog current alarm way down, that's for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Backe Posted July 26, 2018 Author Share Posted July 26, 2018 3 hours ago, Mimir said: Oh, one question- do you remember if you had to remove the heatsink to see the missing lead? (In other words, was it one of the "top" MOSFETs, or one of the ones normally hidden behind the heatsink? The top FETs have much longer leads, and if it was one of those that blew... well, I'm turning my WheelLog current alarm way down, that's for sure. It was @Jrkline "Wheel Whisperer"'s wheel. The MOSFET that we could easily see was on the top row. I have no idea what happened on the bottom row. He had his current alarm set to 140-amps, which he said was briefly triggered. Just don't go slowly up any super steep hills and you'll be fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maltocs Posted July 26, 2018 Share Posted July 26, 2018 1 hour ago, Marty Backe said: It was @Jrkline "Wheel Whisperer"'s wheel. The MOSFET that we could easily see was on the top row. I have no idea what happened on the bottom row. He had his current alarm set to 140-amps, which he said was briefly triggered. Just don't go slowly up any super steep hills and you'll be fine. didn't you say this wheel with a 200lb+ weight rider made it to the top of mount wilson? What was the temperature that day? But a shorter steeper hill blows out the mosfets in the cold SF weather. Gotways are so inconsistent on how to destroy them! I don't think it would be a good idea to put me on gotway up Mt Wilson on a non heat efficient mcm5/super. UPDATE: I meant I don't think it would be a good idea to put me on gotway up Mt Wilson unless it's a heat efficient mcm5/super. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Backe Posted July 26, 2018 Author Share Posted July 26, 2018 2 hours ago, maltocs said: didn't you say this wheel with a 200lb+ weight rider made it to the top of mount wilson? What was the temperature that day? But a shorter steeper hill blows out the mosfets in the cold SF weather. Gotways are so inconsistent on how to destroy them! I don't think it would be a good idea to put me on gotway up Mt Wilson a non heat efficient mcm5/super. No, no, no. Everyone tends to conflate Hills with Very Steep Hills The Mount Wilson ride is nothing compared to the section of trail that Jeff was riding. Some day you may ride Overheat-Hill, but imagine leaning into the wheel to move uphill and all you can manage is a slow-crawl speed. The Mount Wilson trail has none of that. Gotway wheels are not inconsistent. Just avoid super-steep and long hills, whether it's a hot or cold day. Very Simple Gotway Rule If you are leaning heavy into the wheel and it's barely moving, stop after a handful (literally) of seconds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jrkline "Wheel Whisperer" Posted July 26, 2018 Share Posted July 26, 2018 1 minute ago, maltocs said: didn't you say this wheel with a 200lb+ weight rider made it to the top of mount wilson? What was the temperature that day? But a shorter steeper hill blows out the mosfets in the cold SF weather. Gotways are so inconsistent on how to destroy them! I don't think it would be a good idea to put me on gotway up Mt Wilson a non heat efficient mcm5/super. The Mt. wilson ride is no comparison.I rode the ACM2 up it before my side vents were installed and did not get hot or overheat. The "overheat" hill is much steeper and pulls much more amps through the mosfets which cause failures.When my ACM2 failed, the wheel temp. never hit 50C. In my previous board failures,only one mosfet fried.This time at least 3 of the visible 6 mosfets had melted leads and other components such as chips on the board also blew which is a first.Ambient temp. seems to have little effect, the wheel can overamp before it gets too hot such as in the Bay area failure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mimir Posted July 28, 2018 Share Posted July 28, 2018 On 7/25/2018 at 8:35 PM, Jrkline "Wheel Whisperer" said: The Mt. wilson ride is no comparison.I rode the ACM2 up it before my side vents were installed and did not get hot or overheat. The "overheat" hill is much steeper and pulls much more amps through the mosfets which cause failures.When my ACM2 failed, the wheel temp. never hit 50C. In my previous board failures,only one mosfet fried.This time at least 3 of the visible 6 mosfets had melted leads and other components such as chips on the board also blew which is a first.Ambient temp. seems to have little effect, the wheel can overamp before it gets too hot such as in the Bay area failure. Mind posting a picture of your side vents? I'm wondering if you positioned them in such a way as to primarily cool the heatsink. This would seem like the obvious thing to do, but it presents a problem when the wheel is heavily stressed- the heatsink temperature may be significantly lower than it "should" be for a given amount of power dissipation. Because the temperature is (IIUC) read from a thermistor mounted on the heatsink, if the heatsink is cooled but other parts of the board are not, the board's overheat protection may not work correctly. In other words, if Gotway said, (probably from empirical measurements) "when the board's about to blow up the temperature reading we get is 90C", and as such set the limit at 80C, this would generally protect the wheel from overheating. However, if the heatsink is cooled, the heatsink and MOSFET bodies may stay relatively cool, but other chips and the MOSFET leads may reach dangerously high temperatures; the wheel, and the rider, would have no way to detect this. In other words, it sounds like the air vents did a great job at cooling off those parts that would, normally, be the hottest (the FETs)... but other parts, which would normally overheat only after the overheat protection triggered- the other chips and the FET leads- were allowed to rise in temperature until everything finally went south. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alien Rides Posted July 29, 2018 Share Posted July 29, 2018 Unfortunately my camera broke and I didn't have footage of the actual cut out, but here's a video of the next part of my hill test. Ewheels will have me up and running again shortly! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meepmeepmayer Posted July 29, 2018 Share Posted July 29, 2018 @Alien Rides Very nice experiments, thank you for the sacrifice Surprised the thing blew on such a short hill. What's your weight on the pedals? Is it the original msuper V3 or the Tesla-ized variant? Though I want to mention, short hills really don't mean too much. The two important questions are (for a given rider weight): What incline can the wheel do forever without overheating? Because that tells you where a wheel is actually usable. And: What max incline can it do so it won't fry before even overheating? Because that determines what you definitely should not do with the wheel. Short hills don't really answer that, because the shorter the hill is, the more incline % will work with the same wheel and rider. But I understand you can't just find hills that are x% or y% incline evenly for possibly miles, so this is the best that can be done: approaching the limits by just trying what works and what not (and with no warnings!) and getting an intuition. So thanks again, this is very informative. If only the stupid manufacturers would have some idea what they are building, they are supposed to tell us what can and can't be done. Not customers having to ruin their wheels Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alien Rides Posted July 29, 2018 Share Posted July 29, 2018 7 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said: Very nice experiments, thank you for the sacrifice Surprised the thing blew on such a short hill. What's your weight on the pedals? Is it the original msuper V3 or the Tesla-ized variant? I am definitely one of the heavier riders, so most likely lower-weight riders can make this hill with ease. My weight /w gear is around 110Kg or so. This test was using the Tesla (HB) board and motor. 7 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said: The two important questions are (for a given rider weight): What incline can the wheel do forever without overheating? Because that tells you where a wheel is actually usable. And: What max incline can it do so it won't fry before even overheating? Because that determines what you definitely should not do with the wheel. It would be great if we could compile a database of this, but I imagine it will be hard to get folks to test given the risks. I'm still debating whether or not I want to invest more into additional tests, it's very expensive if things go wrong! ? Ambient temperature, rider weight, hill length and many more factors play into this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meepmeepmayer Posted July 29, 2018 Share Posted July 29, 2018 It should be the simplest thing in the world: the manufacturer knows what wattage works for how long, and the wheel warns before things get too bad. Or, even simpler, they just overengineer everything by 200% and just monitor the battery stress as the now only limiting factor. But no... it's up to riders, and you can't know what doesn't work without it getting very expensive, as you rightly say. Oh well... it is how it is Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Backe Posted July 29, 2018 Author Share Posted July 29, 2018 2 hours ago, Alien Rides said: Unfortunately my camera broke and I didn't have footage of the actual cut out, but here's a video of the next part of my hill test. Ewheels will have me up and running again shortly! From my experience I will no longer climb for long directions at the slow speed that you were going. I suspect if you were instrumented you would have seen excessive currents flowing during that climb. Bummer. Just returned from my first 50-mile MSuper X ride. I can confirm what everyone has been saying about the wheel. It really runs cool. Looking like a great San Fran wheel ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LanghamP Posted July 29, 2018 Share Posted July 29, 2018 3 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said: It should be the simplest thing in the world: the manufacturer knows what wattage works for how long, and the wheel warns before things get too bad. Or, even simpler, they just overengineer everything by 200% and just monitor the battery stress as the now only limiting factor. But no... it's up to riders, and you can't know what doesn't work without it getting very expensive, as you rightly say. Oh well... it is how it is I refuse to believe that engineers would ever allow user inputs to greatly exceed physical limits. Oh wait... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerome Posted July 30, 2018 Share Posted July 30, 2018 4 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said: @Alien Rides Very nice experiments, thank you for the sacrifice Surprised the thing blew on such a short hill. What's your weight on the pedals? Is it the original msuper V3 or the Tesla-ized variant? Though I want to mention, short hills really don't mean too much. The two important questions are (for a given rider weight): What incline can the wheel do forever without overheating? Because that tells you where a wheel is actually usable. And: What max incline can it do so it won't fry before even overheating? Because that determines what you definitely should not do with the wheel. Short hills don't really answer that, because the shorter the hill is, the more incline % will work with the same wheel and rider. But I understand you can't just find hills that are x% or y% incline evenly for possibly miles, so this is the best that can be done: approaching the limits by just trying what works and what not (and with no warnings!) and getting an intuition. So thanks again, this is very informative. If only the stupid manufacturers would have some idea what they are building, they are supposed to tell us what can and can't be done. Not customers having to ruin their wheels Moving a 225 kg object (rider and euc) up a 29% grade for a city block is no trivial effort. The required force can by calculated using some basic physics formulas. The key component is torque in newtons. The wattage of the motor tells you horsepower but not torque. The higher the speed capability (use of the horsepower for speed) the lower the torque. The wheel size completes the picture. This is why the Tesla and ACM2 probably out climb the Monster and Msuper(latest) due to wheel size as they are all 30+ mph capable. The MCM5 has less hp(still alot at 1500w) a much smaller wheel and puts more power into torque, restricting top speed below 30+ mph. In theory the V10F should be the best climber with the possible exception of the MCM5. So far, however, their firmware or hardware design is talking the talk but not walking the walk. Gotway has always taken a brute force approach. They allow the machine to draw as much power from the battery as possible, using bigger and bigger Mosfets to handle the heat. Inmotion, King Song, and Ninebot have opted for setting limits and installing protection circuits to enforce the limits. Over-heat hill has an average gradient of ~ 15% if the rise and run data posted earlier is correct. That is the Average. There are places that are probably much steeper and some less steep. if we want the EUC makers to posted meaningful specifications they need only post the motor wattage (including peak), battery capacity, maximum speed full battery and torque. Stating what the maximum grade that the wheel can handle all day long is not worth much because it would likely be 5% or less. Anyone can google the physics formulas and build a calculator where you enter Your weight including euc, the gradient of the hill, the length of the hill and calculate the required force in newtons. If the euc makers release torque figures you will know where the wheel stands. Final point is you can't go beyond the capacity of the battery so beware of "peak-power" numbers. The 100v MSX comes with a 1600wh battery and a 2000w motor (torque unkown?) "assuming you could run it down to 10%, you would have 1440w of power for one hour. Assuming the control board could and did deliver 2900w peak power for a 15 minutes climb of some beast of a hill, that would deplete 50% of your battery no matter what the apps say .. Personal plea; Can we all agree to use % for talking about gradients, the mixing of degrees (which few people use who talk about slopes) with percentage does us all a disservice. A 29% gradient is very steep and 29 degrees gradient is almost twice as steep. Killing more bandwidth as usual, I slink back into the shadows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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