My Inmotion V10F Triumphs, Tribulations, and Failures

[eddiemoy]

7 hours ago, US69 said:

Thats an easy task....just use Darkness Bot beta app. Already set the V10/f to 45kph ...

you bought a V10 too?  how do you like it, we are still waiting for the shipment from china.

[US69]

5 hours ago, houseofjob said:

trying to ‘unlock’ my KS18S (pre-200km KS FW unlock) with DarknessBot and it screwing everything up, I’m not touching that DBot feature with a 10 foot pole.

yip, there has been a hex conversion fault first on the max speed settings for kingsong. The app is now sponsored by ewheels and since then all 4 alarm plus tiltbacks have been new implemented and work fine now. Things get better over time ? Otherwise we could never touch a GW wheel anymore ?

[US69]

4 hours ago, eddiemoy said:

you bought a V10 too?  how do you like it, we are still waiting for the shipment from china.

haha, no, that would be nice if i could buy every new wheel. But the DB developer got the hands on one and opened DB for it....

[houseofjob]

2 minutes ago, US69 said:

yip, there has been a hex conversion fault first on the max speed settings for kingsong. The app is now sponsored by ewheels and since then all 4 alarm plus tiltbacks have been new implemented and work fine now. Things get better over time ? Otherwise we could never touch a GW wheel anymore ?

@US69 fair enough! 

But V10F unlock to 45kph when no load cutout is 50kph? No thanks! I'll wait for hopefully a proper FW update from InMotion

[US69]

Just now, houseofjob said:

@US69 fair enough! 

But V10F unlock to 45kph when no load cutout is 50kph? No thanks! I'll wait for hopefully a proper FW update from InMotion

On which battery charge did you check the no load?

The 45kph unlock , like the 40kph limit, directly goes proportional down with degrading battery. (like it was on the DB v8 35kmh unlock, actually those "absolut" max speeds seams to be hidden in the FW by IM themself)

And to be honest: if the no load cutout really is "only" 50kmh on full battery....then i guess we canALSO NOT exspect a FW change from IM, which will allow 40kph over the complete battery range, or?

[houseofjob]

10 minutes ago, US69 said:

On which battery charge did you check the no load?

The 45kph unlock , like the 40kph limit, directly goes proportional down with degrading battery. (like it was on the DB v8 35kmh unlock, actually those "absolut" max speeds seams to be hidden in the FW by IM themself)

Good question.

From my footage, it appears I did the test with at least 1 of the 5 bars missing (unfortunately, the current version IM app connected to the pre-production model didn't register battery %) So here's to hoping no load is higher on full battery / no throttling, might have to try the DB unlock then when my unit arrives!

 

14 minutes ago, US69 said:

And to be honest: if the no load cutout really is "only" 50kmh on full battery....then i guess we canALSO NOT exspect a FW change from IM, which will allow 40kph over the complete battery range, or?

If this motor is in fact 2kW nominal, similar to the ones at least Gotway are using, shouldn't they be able to theoretically match the Gotway stats, let alone keeping 40kph constant down to 30% battery on 1kWh pack?

[that0n3guy]

5 hours ago, houseofjob said:

If this motor is in fact 2kW nominal, similar to the ones at least Gotway are using, shouldn't they be able to theoretically match the Gotway stats, let alone keeping 40kph constant down to 30% battery on 1kWh pack

No.  With electric motors you can design them several ways.   Some extreme examples are high torque at low speeds, but can't reach high speeds.   Or lower torque at low speeds but can do crazy high speeds.   

Gotway could have their motor designed for higher speeds and thus have more torque at higher speeds.   Electric motors are evolving pretty fast though and the power band is getting larger over the rpm range.

[houseofjob]

6 minutes ago, that0n3guy said:

No.  With electric motors you can design them several ways.   Some extreme examples are high torque at low speeds, but can't reach high speeds.   Or lower torque at low speeds but can do crazy high speeds.   

Gotway could have their motor designed for higher speeds and thus have more torque at higher speeds.   Electric motors are evolving pretty fast though and the power band is getting larger over the rpm range.

This is not the question I asked.

Gotway uses a 2k motor. InMotion uses a 2k motor. They are outsourcing the motor and modifying according to their desired specs, but the 2k motor is still a 2k motor, so if Gotway can get the performance they get out of their machine, InMotion should be able to get similar performance.

[that0n3guy]

1 hour ago, houseofjob said:

This is not the question I asked

Sorry, but it is the same answer :).   A 2k motor with low speed torque vs 2k motor with high speed torque.   They would both perform differently, one better at high speeds, one better at low speeds.   Most power curves of a motor are not linear.

The point being that one 2k motor does not necessarily need to equal another 2k motor.

[Sketch]

5 minutes ago, houseofjob said:

This is not the question I asked.

Gotway uses a 2k motor. InMotion uses a 2k motor. They are outsourcing the motor and modifying according to their desired specs, but the 2k motor is still a 2k motor, so if Gotway can get the performance they get out of their machine, InMotion should be able to get similar performance.

I always thought Inmotion designed their own motors.  The V8 was described as not using an electric bike motor, but was built specifically for euc.  Am I correct on this?  Not sure if the V10 is the same or not.

[houseofjob]

8 minutes ago, that0n3guy said:

Sorry, but it is the same answer :).   A 2k motor with low speed torque vs 2k motor with high speed torque.   They would both perform differently, one better at high speeds, one better at low speeds.   Most power curves of a motor are not linear.

The point being that one 2k motor does not necessarily need to equal another 2k motor.

You somehow have the impression the V10F is tuned for more torque? 

Riding the pre-production unit, I don't feel that it was specially designed for more torque any more so than a Gotway, so I respectfully disagree any of the above applies here.

 

6 minutes ago, Sketch said:

I always thought Inmotion designed their own motors.  The V8 was described as not using an electric bike motor, but was built specifically for euc.  Am I correct on this?  Not sure if the V10 is the same or not.

E-bike motors were the early foundation of EUC, but I believe most EUC manufacturers are outsourcing their motors to company spec (probably not the old modified e-bike motors anymore), as manufacturing their motors in-house would not be cost effective. Could be wrong here though.

Luckily, InMotion is now pretty responsive on the forums these days, so any clarification @Bobwheel?

[that0n3guy]

36 minutes ago, houseofjob said:

ou somehow have the impression the V10F is tuned for more torque?

No I wasn't saying that, I was just saying that one motor does not equal another motor just because the same max power output.

[houseofjob]

2 minutes ago, that0n3guy said:

No I wasn't saying that, I was just saying that one motor does not equal another motor just because the same max power output.

? Still confused. 

2k is nominal power output, many EUC companies don't publish max in today's EUC market, no way to know if the maxes here match or are remotely similar.

[novazeus]

i’ve got a 40 degree incline treadmill that i’ll never use again. i wonder if u could make a euc test machine out of that?

might be a good way to get the feel of a euc.

for all u people up north that can’t ride because of weather, maybe stay in wheel form that way.

ha! shuda known Ian had tried it. no more bitching about not being able to ride my northern neighbors.

 

[Marty Backe]

1 hour ago, novazeus said:

i’ve got a 40 degree incline treadmill that i’ll never use again. i wonder if u could make a euc test machine out of that?

might be a good way to get the feel of a euc.

for all u people up north that can’t ride because of weather, maybe stay in wheel form that way.

ha! shuda known Ian had tried it. no more bitching about not being able to ride my northern neighbors.

 

@Rehab1, our resident mad scientist, already did this and filmed the test rig and it's ultimate failure. Spoiler Alert - the platform belt (what your feet walk on) self-destructed under the stresses from the wheel.

[eddiemoy]

2 hours ago, houseofjob said:

? Still confused. 

2k is nominal power output, many EUC companies don't publish max in today's EUC market, no way to know if the maxes here match or are remotely similar.

I agree with @that0n3guy, I think what he is saying is the 2kw number doesn't mean much by itself.  Meaning it doesn't tell you the characteristics of the motor and what it is built for, speed, torque or something in between.  The only example i can give is from electric hub motors, crystalyte makes these phoenix motors.  They make three types of wheels, same watts, different characteristics, you can see here by keeping the amps the same, just increasing the voltage from 36v to 48v, you get an increase in top speed.  If you look at the amps, going from 25amps to 40amps, give you more torque.  But the wheel has to be either built for speed or torque or something inbetween.

http://www.electric-bikes.com/betterbikes/phoenix.html

PHOENIX II Kit :A Guide to Choosing your kit

System	Volts	Amps	Watts	Cruiser High Speed Motor Top Speed		Brute High Torque Motor Top Speed		RoadRunner Efficient, Light Motor Top Speed
				26" Wheel	20" Wheel	26" Wheel	20" Wheel	16" Wheel Builds Only
3625	36V	25A	900W	26mph Mostly Flat	21mph Small Hills	21mph Small Hills	17mph Hills	14mph Hills
4825	48V	25A	1200W	30mph Mostly Flat	25mph Small Hills	25mph Small Hills	20mph Hills	18mph Hills
3640	36V	40A	1440W	32mph Small Hills	26mph Hills	28mph Hills	22mph Steep Hills	NA
4840	48V	40A	1920W	35mph Small Hills	29mph Hills	31mph Hills	25mph Steep Hills	NA
7240	72V	40A	2880W	45mph Small Hills	37mph Hills	37mph Hills	30mph Steep Hills	NA

 

 

[houseofjob]

1 minute ago, eddiemoy said:

I agree with @that0n3guy, I think what he is saying is the 2kw number doesn't mean much by itself.  Meaning it doesn't tell you the characteristics of the motor and what it is built for, speed, torque or something in between.  The only example i can give is from electric hub motors, crystalyte makes these phoenix motors.  They make three types of wheels, same watts, different characteristics, you can see here by keeping the amps the same, just increasing the voltage from 36v to 48v, you get an increase in top speed.  If you look at the amps, going from 25amps to 40amps, give you more torque.  But the wheel has to be either built for speed or torque or something inbetween.

http://www.electric-bikes.com/betterbikes/phoenix.html

PHOENIX II Kit :A Guide to Choosing your kit

System	Volts	Amps	Watts	Cruiser High Speed Motor Top Speed		Brute High Torque Motor Top Speed		RoadRunner Efficient, Light Motor Top Speed
				26" Wheel	20" Wheel	26" Wheel	20" Wheel	16" Wheel Builds Only
3625	36V	25A	900W	26mph Mostly Flat	21mph Small Hills	21mph Small Hills	17mph Hills	14mph Hills
4825	48V	25A	1200W	30mph Mostly Flat	25mph Small Hills	25mph Small Hills	20mph Hills	18mph Hills
3640	36V	40A	1440W	32mph Small Hills	26mph Hills	28mph Hills	22mph Steep Hills	NA
4840	48V	40A	1920W	35mph Small Hills	29mph Hills	31mph Hills	25mph Steep Hills	NA
7240	72V	40A	2880W	45mph Small Hills	37mph Hills	37mph Hills	30mph Steep Hills	NA

So you think InMotion is using weaker motors than Gotway?

[eddiemoy]

Just now, houseofjob said:

So you think InMotion is using weaker motors than Gotway?

no, not what i'm saying, i'm saying without any info on how the motor is built for each company, you won't know how the wheel behaves.  is it for lower speed and higher torque or higher speed and lower torque.  meaning if it was built for lower torque, it will have trouble on hills.  just like the table you see above.  there really only two types of motors from crystalyte, the pheonix ii comes in cruiser or brute.  cruiser is built for speed, brute is built for hills.  don't know how else to explain it. 

[novazeus]

44 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

@Rehab1, our resident mad scientist, already did this and filmed the test rig and it's ultimate failure. Spoiler Alert - the platform belt (what your feet walk on) self-destructed under the stresses from the wheel.

well maybe the 10z would be better. maybe it was a cheapo treadmill. 

[houseofjob]

10 minutes ago, eddiemoy said:

no, not what i'm saying, i'm saying without any info on how the motor is built for each company, you won't know how the wheel behaves.  is it for lower speed and higher torque or higher speed and lower torque.  meaning if it was built for lower torque, it will have trouble on hills.  just like the table you see above.  there really only two types of motors from crystalyte, the pheonix ii comes in cruiser or brute.  cruiser is built for speed, brute is built for hills.  don't know how else to explain it. 

AFAIK, that's all adjustable. The fundamental motor itself is physically the same motor, they're just tuning things, hardware or software, as I recall the old MSuperV2 was just about windings or whatnot to create Torque vs Speed.

These EUC companies are all located in the same Shenzhen / Guangdong area (well, except for Ninebot being in Beijing) and have access to all the same suppliers. I find it hard to believe somehow a company with a larger bottom line like InMotion cannot source as powerful a motor as the much smaller Gotway can, for their now flagship EUC model in the new V10F, which mind you, must be a success, especially after all the $$$$ they sunk into their sinkhole partnership with Inventist/Solowheel coupled with the aforementioned futile marketing plan.

I still have yet to hear a convincing argument here to the contrary, but am open ears.

[Marty Backe]

18 minutes ago, novazeus said:

well maybe the 10z would be better. maybe it was a cheapo treadmill. 

@Rehab1 doesn't do anything on-the-cheap. He wears a lab coat for Gods Sake!

[eddiemoy]

2 minutes ago, houseofjob said:

AFAIK, that's all adjustable. The fundamental motor itself is physically the same motor, they're just tuning things, hardware or software, as I recall the old MSuperV2 was just about windings or whatnot to create Torque vs Speed.

These EUC companies are all located in the same Shenzhen / Guangdong area (well, except for Ninebot being in Beijing) and have access to all the same suppliers. I find it hard to believe somehow a company with a larger bottom line like InMotion cannot source as powerful a motor as the much smaller Gotway can, for their now flagship EUC model in the new V10F, which mind you, must be a success, especially after all the $$$$ they sunk into their sinkhole partnership with Inventist/Solowheel coupled with the aforementioned futile marketing plan.

I still have yet to hear a convincing argument here to the contrary, but am open ears.

It is not software.  It has to do with how the motor is built.  The key here is 2000W doesn't = 2000W from another motor unless you know the windings and the number of stators.  But i think Grin explains it pretty well here.  But if you look a the chart, the 900W, the cruiser can do 21 mph on a 20" wheel, where as the brute can only do 17 mph on the same 20" wheel.  Keep in mind both motors running 36v and 25amps.  but why does one motor go 21mph and the other only 17mph.  and the one going 21mph can do small hills whereas the one going 17mph can do hills.  

 

Crystalyte Hub Motors in Depth

At the moment, the only hub motors on which we've worked extensively are those from Crystalyte. These motors are of good value. They are manufactured with nowhere near the polish and precision of Heinzmann, for instance, but for 1/5th the price you get reliable performance and an appreciable power output. They offer a large selection of different configurations, and Crystalyte openly publishes the technical specifications of their motors, while most other companies don't let you read past the marketing department.

On the Crystalyte website, you'll see a large number of motors listed and characterized like 406, 408, 409, 4011. The last digits refer to the number of turns of copper around each stator pole. So for instance, a 406 has 6 turns, the 4011 has 11 turns.

The torque that is produced by one of these motors varies in direct proportion to the total current flowing around each pole. So in the above case, a 406 motor with 15 amps flowing through the winding has a total of 90 amps around the pole. The 409 motor would need just 10 amps to have 90 amps around the pole and hence the same torque output.

One false and oft-repeated conclusion is that therefore the 409 is a higher torque motor than the 406 because it can produce the same torque with fewer amps, or likewise more torque with the same amps. This is not the case. All 400 series motors can deliver exactly the same torque at exactly the same efficiency. The lower winding count motors just need more current to do this, but because they have fewer turns of a shorter length of heavier gauge wire, they can handle high currents with minimal loss. To use a concrete example, lets compare a 404 with a 408. The 408 has twice the number of turns than the 404, so the copper wire in the windings has 1/2 the cross sectional area and twice the length, for a total of 4 times the winding resistance of the 404. For a given torque output, the 408 needs only 1/2 the amps, but because it has 4 times the resistance the net electrical loss (I2R) is exactly the same.

Another consequence of having a larger number of turns around each stator is that the voltage induced in the winding by the passing magnets is increased in direct proportion to the number of turns. So for instance, at a certain speed of rotation, the 408 motor will produce twice the back-emf voltage as a 404 motor rotating at the same RPM. To power a motor, the battery pack voltage needs to be greater than the back-emf voltage, and so the 408 motor needs twice the voltage to spin at the same speed as a 404. However, it will only draw 1/2 the current, and you can see that the net power input (Volts * Amps) remains the same.

[houseofjob]

@eddiemoy ugh, this is not my point.

If I can't assume same nominal power motor, then you can't assume high torque vs high speed either, we both don't know, only the Gotway and InMotion teams do!

But if assumptions are being made anyways, I'll go with the one that says the manufacturers in the EUC game are accessing the same type / capacity motors, seeing as no one is magically all-of-a-sudden leapfrogging each other in the speed/power departments dramatically. The whole industry assimilates and progresses similarly.

Hence why I don't see why InMotion can't just up the speed 5kph, as they've been known in the past to set their speed thresholds well under no load.

[novazeus]

14 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

@Rehab1 doesn't do anything on-the-cheap. He wears a lab coat for Gods Sake!

true dat! his euc riding costume cost more than my $1800 treadmill.

[eddiemoy]

1 minute ago, houseofjob said:

@eddiemoy ugh, this is not my point.

If I can't assume same nominal power motor, then you can't assume high torque vs high speed either, we both don't know, only the Gotway and InMotion teams do!

But if assumptions are being made anyways, I'll go with the one that says the manufacturers in the EUC game are accessing the same type / capacity motors, seeing as no one is magically all-of-a-sudden leapfrogging each other in the speed/power departments dramatically. The whole industry assimilates and progresses similarly.

Hence why I don't see why InMotion can't just up the speed 5kph, as they've been known in the past to set their speed thresholds well under no load.

If their motor was wound for torque and not speed, it isn't as simple as just bumping it up 5kph.  maybe it just can't go that fast.  We simply don't know if it can or cannot based on the 2000w number.