Are All A2s The Same?

[Funky]

Just now, techyiam said:

Not making fun.

You do really need a last mile device.

You don't say..  Only we, the ones in charge of their life know what is their needs.

[techyiam]

4 minutes ago, Funky said:

I have even tried pushing wheel from backside. Doesn't work for me. Still doesn't fix all of the rest carrying scenarios..

I have to push up 5 steps. Even that is borderline for me.

[Funky]

5 minutes ago, techyiam said:

I have to push up 5 steps. Even that is borderline for me.

That's a walk in park.. If i had to do only that, i would have bought Sherman Max as my first wheel. Without second thought. 

I so hope we will get something decent in 2024.. I'm ready to buy something lighter.. S22/19/16 been made. Same for V13/14. Please one light wheel next? But as you said. Prob 22" wheels incoming.. F.M.L

Edited December 22, 2023 by Funky

[Mono]

1 hour ago, techyiam said:

(1) Inmotion V11Y:     65.5 lbs.

(2) Kingsong S16:    68.3 lbs.

So, 65+ lbs is the new "light weight" I suppose.

I hate to have to lug these wheels up to a 3rd floor flat fews times a day.

Right, that's why these were not the wheel updates I was referring to 

38 minutes ago, techyiam said:

I have to push up 5 steps. Even that is borderline for me.

I carry the wheel up and down 9 flights of stairs on a normal onsite office day. I could take the elevator on all of these, but that's slower and less enjoyable than running up and down stairs. I also take regularly long distance trains and lifting a 35kg wheel up into one of these trains and in the luggage rack (the upper seats deck wouldn't even be an option) is something I am glad to avoid if I can. Leaving the wheel at home is of course no viable option too.

Edited December 23, 2023 by Mono

[Crab]

On 12/20/2023 at 9:23 AM, Marty Backe said:

Thank you for the well wishes. I've made great progress in 5-months but it does feel like it's going to be at least another 5-months before I'm fully recovered, assuming that I'll ever be fully recovered.

Don't break a leg 

Words to live by ppl!

[Asphalt]

A wheel that can be comfortably carried one-handed has a lot of use-cases:

• walking around places that don't allow rolling: stores, restaurants, museums, trains, buses, office buildings, workshops, dojos, gyms, carpeted floors
• placing in overhead storage on a bus or train
• maneuvering under/between seats on public transit
• easily placing in trunk, frunk or rear seats in car
• storing in a locker
• walking up/down stairs, escalators
• stairs with rounded edges, where tires slip when pushed
• climbing over gates, fences, obstacles

Whenever I've encountered a non-rolling-friendly scenario, I just pick up my MCM5 like a briefcase and continue about my day.

Ergonomics in this class of EUC is important, as its primary purpose is not recreation, but getting you through your day as efficiently as possible.

The A2 is lacking in a few areas:

• A shell/fender that prevents water and dirt from splashing onto your pants
• A trolley handle that doesn't block the rear lights
• A trolley handle that allows the EUC to be easily pushed without power
• pedals that fold up high enough so that they don't dig into your leg while carrying and walking.
• a strong ergonomic handle with a built-in lift switch
• 50 km/h top speed (In my city, this is sufficient for most bike lane commuting where you occasionally need to integrate with car traffic)

To be fair, none of the current lightweight EUCs available meet all this criteria.

The MCM5 comes close with about 45km/h top speed.

For my use-case, the ideal urban micro-mobility commuter would have the following:

• under 30lbs
• capable of 50km/h
• IP67 water-resistant
• shell and fender to protect clothing from water, mud, debris, etc.
• UL-certified battery
• traffic-appropriate lighting
• a smooth side profile that doesn't dig into your legs while carrying and walking
• ability to disable all sounds and lights (apart from the overlean beeps)
• sturdy ergonomic handle with integrated lift switch or thumb-reachable power button
• quickly deployable trolley handle that can manuever the wheel when powered off
• pedals that can be quickly and easily deployed or flipped up with your feet.

The advancements seen in modern heavyweight EUC manufacturing could be applied to these lighter wheels:

• Use of Molicel P42A, P45B or Samsung 50S cells make it possible to have a 100V 24s2p pack capable of the discharge required to safely hit 50kph.
• Magnesium alloy for lightweight strength
• Top-mounted control board for cooling and symmetrical weight distribution.
• Wire connectors outside the controller box for ease of tire change
• pedal hanger mounts that don't require a shim or a custom socket wrench head to access
• smart BMS
• hall sensor failsafe
• PWM alarms
• customizable ride modes

 

[Funky]

15 hours ago, Asphalt said:

A wheel that can be comfortably carried one-handed has a lot of use-cases:

• walking around places that don't allow rolling: stores, restaurants, museums, trains, buses, office buildings, workshops, dojos, gyms, carpeted floors
• placing in overhead storage on a bus or train
• maneuvering under/between seats on public transit
• easily placing in trunk, frunk or rear seats in car
• storing in a locker
• walking up/down stairs, escalators
• stairs with rounded edges, where tires slip when pushed
• climbing over gates, fences, obstacles

Whenever I've encountered a non-rolling-friendly scenario, I just pick up my MCM5 like a briefcase and continue about my day.

Ergonomics in this class of EUC is important, as its primary purpose is not recreation, but getting you through your day as efficiently as possible.

The A2 is lacking in a few areas:

• A shell/fender that prevents water and dirt from splashing onto your pants
• A trolley handle that doesn't block the rear lights
• A trolley handle that allows the EUC to be easily pushed without power
• pedals that fold up high enough so that they don't dig into your leg while carrying and walking.
• a strong ergonomic handle with a built-in lift switch
• 50 km/h top speed (In my city, this is sufficient for most bike lane commuting where you occasionally need to integrate with car traffic)

To be fair, none of the current lightweight EUCs available meet all this criteria.

The MCM5 comes close with about 45km/h top speed.

For my use-case, the ideal urban micro-mobility commuter would have the following:

• under 30lbs
• capable of 50km/h
• IP67 water-resistant
• shell and fender to protect clothing from water, mud, debris, etc.
• UL-certified battery
• traffic-appropriate lighting
• a smooth side profile that doesn't dig into your legs while carrying and walking
• ability to disable all sounds and lights (apart from the overlean beeps)
• sturdy ergonomic handle with integrated lift switch or thumb-reachable power button
• quickly deployable trolley handle that can manuever the wheel when powered off
• pedals that can be quickly and easily deployed or flipped up with your feet.

The advancements seen in modern heavyweight EUC manufacturing could be applied to these lighter wheels:

• Use of Molicel P42A, P45B or Samsung 50S cells make it possible to have a 100V 24s2p pack capable of the discharge required to safely hit 50kph.
• Magnesium alloy for lightweight strength
• Top-mounted control board for cooling and symmetrical weight distribution.
• Wire connectors outside the controller box for ease of tire change
• pedal hanger mounts that don't require a shim or a custom socket wrench head to access
• smart BMS
• hall sensor failsafe
• PWM alarms
• customizable ride modes

 

Aside of weight - we would be lucky to get something that goes 50km/h under 20kg (45lbs). I also would love to see something under 13kg (30lbs), but that simply isn't possible. More speed - bigger motor - more batteries. Better build - move weight also.

Everything else you said is perfect!!! This would be perfect cheat sheet for manufacturers to make something amazing!

Edited December 30, 2023 by Funky

[Asphalt]

On 12/30/2023 at 1:05 AM, Funky said:

Aside of weight - we would be lucky to get something that goes 50km/h under 20kg (45lbs). I also would love to see something under 13kg (30lbs), but that simply isn't possible. More speed - bigger motor - more batteries. Better build - move weight also.

Everything else you said is perfect!!! This would be perfect cheat sheet for manufacturers to make something amazing!

Sub 30lb wheels have been made in the past:
This one was under 20lbs:

I suspect that a 30lb wheel capable of 50k/h is achievable with today's material science, but it wouldn't be cheap.

A minimum 24s2p configuration for 100V would require high discharge cells.

The 21700 high discharge cells weigh around 70g each.
Molicel p42A p45B =  70g
Samsung 50S = 70g
70g x 24s x 2p = 3360g = 7.4 lbs 

High discharge 18650 cells might be a better option for weight savings at the expense of range.
Panasonic NCR18650 = 46.5g
Samsung 30Q 18650 = 46.5g
46.5g x 24s x 2p = 2232g = 5 lbs

 

 

The MCM5v2 can be used for reference, weighing in at 16.7kg = 37 lbs.
A 100v version would have 8 more cells: 8 x 46.5g = 372g = 0.82 lbs

Weight savings could be made with:

• nylon or carbon fiber pedals
• magnesium alloy or carbon fiber pedal hangers (or build the pedal attachment directly into the shell)
• magnesium alloy motor covers
• magnesium alloy rim
• carbon fiber shell
• carbon fiber trolley
• remove unnecessary amenities like USB ports, LEDs, bluetooth speakers, pads

Maybe even remove the trolly handle if sufficient weight savings can be achieved to make it easy to carry (<25lbs)

 

[Funky]

6 hours ago, Asphalt said:

carbon fiber pedals

Are you sure about that?

Everything else sounds good. But it won't be for "cheap", that for sure. It would be more or less like ITX in PC world. Sure there will be some who will pay premium to get small PC.. But most of world would prefer bigger case and easier building.

Carbon vs Plastic. Most would buy cheaper plastic wheel, than carbon one drop wheel.. I personally would pay 3000$ for small wheel. But not made out of fragile carbon, that's for sure.. Heck even plastic is better. It wont get "micro" cracks that one day fails in big manner. When carbon fails - it fails hard.. 

[Mono]

On 1/2/2024 at 5:19 AM, Asphalt said:

• remove unnecessary amenities like USB ports, LEDs, bluetooth speakers, pads

Maybe even remove the trolly handle if sufficient weight savings can be achieved to make it easy to carry (<25lbs)

I want practical lightweight, not Formula One lightweight. When the weight of the battery is >2kg, a USB-C port is almost a must and then I also would not remove a second charge port just for weight savings. For sure, I wouldn't buy a suitcase without a trolley handle even when it usually carries only 10kg, so I wouldn't use an 10kg EUC without trolley handle either. LEDs have a safety function which I like (but I can also do without). Bluetooth speakers on the other hand are a good place to shave off weight whereas I wouldn't use my EUC without any pads, some pads are to me an integral part of functionality and safety, not just an unnecessary amenity.

[Jason McNeil]

Just concluded a deal with Begode for an A2 upgrade. The name hasn't been finalized, but probably A2 SE, or A2 Plus, it will have the 50S cells + an upgraded 24 MOSFET board, tripling the power potential & raising top-speed by like 7-10kph. The price is expected to be about $100 more than the current A2 @ $1,350. We'll also be offering the upgraded board as as standalone upgrade for existing 40T/50S Customers for $200. We'll have some pics of the new controller by the end of the week. 

This is separate from the new product annoucement on the 24th, 9 days from now. Exciting times ahead 

[Funky]

1 hour ago, Jason McNeil said:

Just concluded a deal with Begode for an A2 upgrade. The name hasn't been finalized, but probably A2 SE, or A2 Plus, it will have the 50S cells + an upgraded 24 MOSFET board, tripling the power potential & raising top-speed by like 7-10kph. The price is expected to be about $100 more than the current A2 @ $1,350. We'll also be offering the upgraded board as as standalone upgrade for existing 40T/50S Customers for $200. We'll have some pics of the new controller by the end of the week. 

This is separate from the new product annoucement on the 24th, 9 days from now. Exciting times ahead 

Good news, but not Great news. Because at end of the day it's the same A2.  You can make faster motor, add better board and better cells - it won't fix not having a trolley handle and the carry handle which is screwed into wimpy plastic lid of motherboard.

Honestly i have little hope that at "24th" there will be something exciting/good. (At least for me..) At this point it feels like finding pot of gold at the end of the rainbow is much more likely, than getting awesome/modern lightweight wheel.

Edited January 15 by Funky

[Asphalt]

3 hours ago, Jason McNeil said:

Just concluded a deal with Begode for an A2 upgrade. The name hasn't been finalized, but probably A2 SE, or A2 Plus, it will have the 50S cells + an upgraded 24 MOSFET board, tripling the power potential & raising top-speed by like 7-10kph. The price is expected to be about $100 more than the current A2 @ $1,350. We'll also be offering the upgraded board as as standalone upgrade for existing 40T/50S Customers for $200. We'll have some pics of the new controller by the end of the week. 

This is separate from the new product annoucement on the 24th, 9 days from now. Exciting times ahead 

Thanks for negotiating this deal @Jason McNeil - this is some great news for the lightweight performance category!

Hoping that the 1000W motor and controller are capable of handling the additional heat.
It'd be nice to have some cooling fins under the controller in the wheel well.

Maybe they can also add a motor cable connector outside the control box for easier tire changes?

This A2 Pro / A2 Max / A2S / A24 is shaping up to potentially be a decent MCM5 V2 replacement - just need to throw on a lighter tire, print some splash guards and create an ergonomic trolley handle mod.

 

[litewave]

1 hour ago, Asphalt said:

Thanks for negotiating this deal @Jason McNeil - this is some great news for the lightweight performance category!

Hoping that the 1000W motor and controller are capable of handling the additional heat.
It'd be nice to have some cooling fins under the controller in the wheel well.

Maybe they can also add a motor cable connector outside the control box for easier tire changes?

This A2 Pro / A2 Max / A2S / A24 is shaping up to potentially be a decent MCM5 V2 replacement - just need to throw on a lighter tire, print some splash guards and create an ergonomic trolley handle mod.

 

I'm still not impressed given the motor is only 1000w vs. the MCM5v2 at 1500w.

[Asphalt]

22 hours ago, litewave said:

I'm still not impressed given the motor is only 1000w vs. the MCM5v2 at 1500w.

Manufacturer motor ratings aren't that consistent. The A2 motor uses the same 35cm-wide magnets as the MCM5 motor. With the additional power from the controller I wouldn't be surprised if Begode increases the power rating on the same motor for the A2 Más.

[Funky]

37 minutes ago, Asphalt said:

Manufacturer motor ratings aren't that consistent. The A2 motor uses the same 35cm-wide magnets as the MCM5 motor. With the additional power from the controller I wouldn't be surprised if Begode increases the power rating on the same motor for the A2 Más.

Doh for people who like to compare "numbers" and seeing 1500W vs 1000W is big difference. 

Begode could have given correct number right from the start. Doesn't matter that A2 motor is/are/may be stronger than that of MCM5. 1000W says otherwise. 

Even i am put off by the 1000W motor.. It is and will always be Mten4 only with bigger tire.. Simply because of 1000W motor.

 

As you said: A2 "pLuS" could have given the 1500W motor and everyone would be happy. Even without any motor changes.. Only on paper from 1000W to 1500W.  

Edited January 16 by Funky

[UniVehje]

It’s just a nominal number for how much the motor is rated to handle continuously. The motor doesn’t produce the power. It shouldn’t feel any different with bigger number if the controller and battery stays the same. I would only care about that number increasing if we had motors melting in use. Peak power aside, steady riding doesn’t use that much. 

[Funky]

So if i'm pulling often over 1600W on my 18XL. You can't compare the output of my wheel to different wheel?

I would imagine 1000W would be way to little for me - if i'm pulling regularly over 1600W on slow rides. And if i'm going faster i hit regularly over 2000W.

 

Or am i wrong to compare one wheel output to another wheel? Because i have always thought like this: If i'm going over 2000W often on my 18XL, i can't buy something that has 1000W motor.. As it's simply 2 weak for me. 

Edited January 16 by Funky

[litewave]

7 hours ago, Asphalt said:

Manufacturer motor ratings aren't that consistent. The A2 motor uses the same 35cm-wide magnets as the MCM5 motor. With the additional power from the controller I wouldn't be surprised if Begode increases the power rating on the same motor for the A2 Más.

We won't know until someone compares the MCM5v2 with the A2 50S.

I'd be happy to do so if @Jason McNeil would send me an A2 50S demo to test alongside the MCM5v2 40T I already own. 

[Mono]

15 hours ago, Funky said:

Because i have always thought like this: If i'm going over 2000W often on my 18XL, i can't buy something that has 1000W motor.

Sounds correct when you consume 2000W on average for longer periods of time and given these numbers/measurements are actually accurate. I wouldn't be very confident that the latter is the case.

[Jason McNeil]

The first sample of the upgraded A2 controller is shipping out for evaluation. China's down for the month of Feb, if it passes (e.g. deemed a worthwhile upgrade, with a perceptible power boost), production of these should be taking place in March.   

[Asphalt]

Here's the side-by-side comparison:

[Asphalt]

It looks like the new control board has

• smaller capacitors (2 x 560uF vs 2 x 680uF)
• motor cable plugs spaced further apart
• same battery connector (not good, as original had a tendency to disconnect)
• more, but smaller mosfets (24 vs 6)

 

I'm a little worried about heat dissipation.
The A2 control board is mounted directly on top of the batteries and there are no heat sink fins.
Hopefully the extra power delivery doesn't cook the batteries.

Edited January 23 by Asphalt
Added observation about heat.

[Jason McNeil]

On 1/22/2024 at 6:18 AM, Jason McNeil said:

The first sample of the upgraded A2 controller is shipping out for evaluation. China's down for the month of Feb, if it passes (e.g. deemed a worthwhile upgrade, with a perceptible power boost), production of these should be taking place in March.   

This A2+ project is GO, GO, GO, with first A2+ production is scheduled for next week, we be getting these in around Mid-April.

[Funky]

3 hours ago, Jason McNeil said:

This A2+ project is GO, GO, GO, with first A2+ production is scheduled for next week, we be getting these in around Mid-April.

Aside of board (that no-one really asked for. Did people ask for new/better board? If yes - then nvm, i'm sorry.) Did they also fix on A2+ problems of no having trolley handle and it's crap of a carry handle? Also it's crappy mudguard that still plashes the rider?

Otherwise i'm not seeing anything different on A2+, if it's only new board - it's still the same A2.