Are All A2s The Same?

[Ethereal]

 

[Cerbera]

Interesting - thanks for sharing your investigations / info. And more so to see if @Marty Backe agrees with that assessment of why his machine cut out. If I had to guess I would presume not, because in an over-torque situation we do not expect the machine to power down like his did.

[techyiam]

2 hours ago, Cerbera said:

Interesting - thanks for sharing your investigations / info. And more so to see if @Marty Backe agrees with that assessment of why his machine cut out. If I had to guess I would presume not, because in an over-torque situation we do not expect the machine to power down like his did.

I also would give Marty the benefit of the doubt, since he is a very active and experienced rider. It would be hard to believe Marty did not know that he had over-torqued the wheel.

Personally, the video was not convincing that it was a user error in Marty's case. All it said was that since Roger was not able to find a hardware culprit, then it must be user error.

[Ethereal]

8 hours ago, techyiam said:

I also would give Marty the benefit of the doubt, since he is a very active and experienced rider. It would be hard to believe Marty did not know that he had over-torqued the wheel.

Personally, the video was not convincing that it was a user error in Marty's case. All it said was that since Roger was not able to find a hardware culprit, then it must be user error.

I think only the Begode people would have the best idea of what transpired that day. If not user error or hardware issue, only one other culprit is the most likely suspect and that would be the firmware. Have they changed the firmware since Martygate? Would they even admit it if they did? I remember Marty said the A2 gave out when he was making a turn. Could it have been the lean angle? 🧐

[Funky]

I miss 2015.. I want more wheels to be made from that time..  (Small/Light)

[techyiam]

You may want to rewatch Marty's video describing the events leading to his crash.

He was riding chill, and when the "shut-off" occurred, he was not accelerating nor braking.

He was also doing a slight manoeuvring around a park car.

Time-stamped.

 

5 hours ago, Ethereal said:

I think only the Begode people would have the best idea of what transpired that day. If not user error or hardware issue, only one other culprit is the most likely suspect and that would be the firmware.

 What we know is that Begode did asked Marty to check an electronics related hardware, the diode, and did not ask Marty to flash a new version of firmware.

Since Marty got an early production batch, it was almost like a demo wheel. It was so early that if Marty had uncovered a defect, it would be advantages for Begode to determine the cause, find a solution, and put the fix in production. I think Begode should have requested Marty to send back the crashed A2 for detailed inspection. After everything has been resolved, they can then offer one of the fixed ones to Marty, if Marty still wants an A2. If not, they can offer Marty another new release wheel in the future.

Now that some time has passed, I haven't heard of another A2 "shutting off" like Marty's. It could have been an outlier.

In other words, the A2 may not be anymore susceptible to "turning off" than any other new wheel.

It doesn't matter what new wheel you buy, there is always a possibility that a "cut-out" or "shut-off by itself" to occur. Whenever, I buy a new, I ride it if it was like a V12 (HS) 2nd batch or an Abrams. They can do random "cut-outs". It usually takes months before I can trust a new wheel. 

 

 

Edited December 16, 2023 by techyiam

[Ethereal]

57 minutes ago, techyiam said:

You may want to rewatch Marty's video describing the events leading to his crash.

He was riding chill, and when the "shut-off" occurred, he was not accelerating nor braking.

He was also doing a slight manoeuvring around a park car.

Time-stamped.

 

 What we know is that Begode did asked Marty to check an electronics related hardware, the diode, and did not ask Marty to flash a new version of firmware.

Since Marty got an early production batch, it is almost like a demo wheel. It is so early that if Marty had uncovered a defect, it would be advantages for Begode to determine the cause, find a solution, and put the fix in production. I think Begode should have requested Marty to send back the crashed A2 for detailed inspection. After everything has been resolved, they can then offer one of the fixed ones to Marty, if Marty still wants an A2. If not, they can offer Marty another new release wheel in the future.

Now that some time has passed, I haven't heard of another A2 "shutting off" like Marty's. It could have been an outlier.

In other words, the A2 may not be anymore susceptible to "turning off" than any other new wheel.

It doesn't matter what new wheel you buy, there is always a possibility that a "cut-out" or "shut-off by itself" to occur. Whenever, I buy a new, I ride it if it was like a V12 (HS) 2nd batch or an Abrams. They can do random "cut-outs". It usually takes months before I can trust a new wheel. 

 

 

This random cutout issue will just go in the cold case files. We will never know what happened that day. “Just an outlier” as Roger mentioned. I totally agree that  any wheel can have a random cutout for no reason whatsoever. I have bought first batch wheels twice. One was a KS18L and the other a V13. I never had any problems with the trusty KS18L and so far none with the V13.
That is why it’s so essential to always gear up and just be vigilant and be prepared defensive wise in knowing how to fall. This last sentence has been the subject of so many of my videos too. 

[techyiam]

30 minutes ago, Ethereal said:

That is why it’s so essential to always gear up and just be vigilant and be prepared defensive wise in knowing how to fall.

Good advice.

That's another reason why euc's are not for everyone. 

[Marty Backe]

On 12/16/2023 at 1:46 AM, techyiam said:

I also would give Marty the benefit of the doubt, since he is a very active and experienced rider. It would be hard to believe Marty did not know that he had over-torqued the wheel.

Personally, the video was not convincing that it was a user error in Marty's case. All it said was that since Roger was not able to find a hardware culprit, then it must be user error.

Yeah, I'm riding at a steady, leisurely, ~10 - 15 mph speed when the wheel turns off 

[Marty Backe]

On 12/16/2023 at 2:49 PM, techyiam said:

You may want to rewatch Marty's video describing the events leading to his crash.

He was riding chill, and when the "shut-off" occurred, he was not accelerating nor braking.

He was also doing a slight manoeuvring around a park car.

Time-stamped.

 

 What we know is that Begode did asked Marty to check an electronics related hardware, the diode, and did not ask Marty to flash a new version of firmware.

Since Marty got an early production batch, it was almost like a demo wheel. It was so early that if Marty had uncovered a defect, it would be advantages for Begode to determine the cause, find a solution, and put the fix in production. I think Begode should have requested Marty to send back the crashed A2 for detailed inspection. After everything has been resolved, they can then offer one of the fixed ones to Marty, if Marty still wants an A2. If not, they can offer Marty another new release wheel in the future.

Now that some time has passed, I haven't heard of another A2 "shutting off" like Marty's. It could have been an outlier.

In other words, the A2 may not be anymore susceptible to "turning off" than any other new wheel.

It doesn't matter what new wheel you buy, there is always a possibility that a "cut-out" or "shut-off by itself" to occur. Whenever, I buy a new, I ride it if it was like a V12 (HS) 2nd batch or an Abrams. They can do random "cut-outs". It usually takes months before I can trust a new wheel. 

 

 

My A2 was certainly a production wheel that they pulled off the production line. The only unique thing about it was the addition of a new street tire that wasn't yet available for other riders.

On principle I will NEVER ride an A2 again 

[Funky]

7 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

On principle I will NEVER ride an A2 again 

So.. If next wheel powers off out of blue. You won't ride that wheel also?

Any wheel can suddenly power off. (Old battery that suddenly dies.. Motherboard dies..) Bad firmware, that could have made wheel power off also. You just had to meet right conditions, to make it power off. Speed, lean angle, power usage - it all could have plaid a role.

My guess why A2 powered off - Something was left inside the motherboard apartment. Small metal shaving or something. Mid ride it made a short circuit. And after fall it got thrown out.. That's why wheel worked like nothing happened.)

Is it that hard to imagine something left behind? Small solder ball. Metal Shaving. Anything that could make short circuit.

[Ethereal]

7 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

My A2 was certainly a production wheel that they pulled off the production line. The only unique thing about it was the addition of a new street tire that wasn't yet available for other riders.

On principle I will NEVER ride an A2 again 

It was quite unfortunate what happened to you. What made it worse was that it was a gift from Begode. 
The most important thing is that you are OK now after the surgery and seem to be rehabilitating well. 
 

I remember in your video that you stated your ankle had twisted to the point of breaking and was already broken before you even fell on the ground. Were you wearing any special pads on the A2 that might have locked you in too much?  You also stated that the wheel just randomly cutout on you. You were neither breaking nor accelerating and the cutout happened while you were maneuvering around cars. Could you have been at a strong tilt  angle when you had the cutout? 
 

 

[Ethereal]

1 minute ago, Funky said:

So.. If next wheel powers off out of blue. You won't ride that wheel also?

Any wheel can suddenly power off. (Old battery that suddenly dies.. Motherboard dies..) Bad firmware, that could have made wheel power off also. You just had to meet right conditions, to make it power off. Speed, lean angle, power usage - it all could have plaid a role.

My guess why A2 powered off - Something was left inside the motherboard apartment. Small metal shaving or something. Mid ride it made a short circuit. And after fall it got thrown out.. That's why wheel worked like nothing happened.)

Is it that hard to imagine something left behind? Small solder ball. Metal Shaving. Anything that could make short circuit.

That’s actually a pretty good theory and makes sense. 

[Funky]

1 hour ago, Voyager said:

Obviously there is no right or wrong answer here, but I wondered what you, or others thought about the newer A2 vs the older KS wheels, KS16S, Ks18XL for getting those first few km's and confidence happening.. I know @Funky often states he is perfectly happy with his 18L/XL hybrid for instance. By all accounts, it's the wheel with arguably the best track record of them all. That and 16X of course.

FYI: I'm 184Cm tall and 125kg heavy. And i'm looking for lighter wheel than my 18xl. Preferably something in 20kg or lighter weight as my next wheel.. Need be it can be slower and have smaller battery. If my wheel dies and nothing better have been made. I MAY buy A2. Doh i'm waiting for KS-S14 to be released.  Or may buy regular 18L and use my 18xl for extra parts...

Performance wise A2 sucks ass. As it has same specs as Mten4! But the looks and honeycomb pedals are quite nice. If only it had 1500W motor... Even 18L has 31mph top speed, bigger battery, better power/motor.. Right out better wheel, at same weight.

I could buy any of the new wheels. Any moment i would want.. I simply have no need for big batteries and fast wheels. Hence i'm waiting for more lightweight wheels to be made. 

[UniVehje]

2 hours ago, Voyager said:

Bit of supporting info FYI. Taller at 186cm/6'1" Weight fluctuates, riding weight probably 82-86kg. (181-190lbs) Depending on time of year & pies eaten etc  Reasonably fit/athletic, sports background, so balance not too bad. Mostly quiet back roads & cycle path riding planned, mixture of smooth and quite bumpy surfaces (tree roots etc). No real offroad aspired to. 

I don’t recommend A2 for you. Too small. 18XL is a solid and reliable wheel. Can’t go wrong with it unless you want suspension. And you might want to consider suspension for comfort and safety. You don’t need it. I rode 18XL for 8000 km in a year and never needed suspension. They didn’t exist back then. But after having suspension, I don’t want to be without it. 
 

For suspension you need to go for heavier and more expensive models. V11 is another option for you. That’s also an older and proven model now, especially with the Y version. If you go without suspension, then 18XL is a good choice. For everything else you are paying for more top speed which you might not need. 

[Funky]

1 hour ago, Voyager said:

I can't remember if you've considered KS16S ? I watched an interesting video recently comparing acceleration and braking of KS16S vs 16X It's Russian, no speaking so no subtitles required. Has on screen information, but you can actually see the difference in performance visually. Not the result I expected. Don't know how to, or if I can post just the link, I'll try here. Edit: figured it out. Have just pasted the link instead of embedding video (to keep post smaller).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0tIRSkEAFY0

KS-S14 may be the one for you if you want suspension. If they ever release it. They'll have to get the S16 & S19 happening first though. Few hold ups with both I suspect. 

 

My dad has 16S, have ridden it also. No problems.. I just hate that 2.125 tire under my heavy ass. I prefer big tires. More air volume - safer/better ride. Metal build is perfect for all these new heavy wheels. They are more or less like motorcycles, so naturally they want/need more solid build. Smaller/lighter wheels are more like bicycles, they don't need metal builds. 

Updated 16S with hollow bore motor and 3" tire would be perfect. It would be right on mark 20kg. Same time i bet they could increase it's max speed from 35km/h to 40km/h easily. As we have gotten better batteries, etc..

Anyways A2 would have been perfect, if it had better batteries. And bigger wattage motor. Build wise i only hate it's carry handle - it's very fragile and not having trolley handle is very bad.

Edited December 18, 2023 by Funky

[Marty Backe]

5 hours ago, Voyager said:

TL;DR - My first post: Hello, move along now...  

Okay, so I've been following the forum for a couple of years at least, but have just joined up. Long time lurker etc.. So, first post, here goes nothing......  

@Ethereal Thank you for your video with your thoughts regarding the A2. I do agree it seems to be a great wheel to have for fun, run errands and everything you state. I do wonder if it is better suited as a 'second wheel' to a bigger. faster wheel, than a stand alone wheel for a beginner, which is what I'm trying to decide on. 

I notice in your wheel list, you have, or had, KS18L. Do you have any thoughts between A2 and the KS18L for a first wheel in (almost) 2024?  A few reviewers/influencers/pimps  have said A2 would be a great wheel to learn on. However, there are many contradicting opinions online also. When for instance, @Marty Backe let some people, in two separate groups, try it before setting off on separate group rides, there were mixed opinions given. I wonder what Marty would think these days about the KS18XL. Many moons & miles have passed since his days on that wheel...

EcoDrift.ru in their A2 video made about two months ago also stated "Maybe it's better to choose an old proven model". The reviewer offered many convincing reasons to do so. (KS16S in that instance).

Obviously there is no right or wrong answer here, but I wondered what you, or others thought about the newer A2 vs the older KS wheels, KS16S, Ks18XL for getting those first few km's and confidence happening.. I know @Funky often states he is perfectly happy with his 18L/XL hybrid for instance. By all accounts, it's the wheel with arguably the best track record of them all. That and 16X of course.

Bit of supporting info FYI. Taller at 186cm/6'1" Weight fluctuates, riding weight probably 82-86kg. (181-190lbs) Depending on time of year & pies eaten etc  Reasonably fit/athletic, sports background, so balance not too bad. Mostly quiet back roads & cycle path riding planned, mixture of smooth and quite bumpy surfaces (tree roots etc). No real offroad aspired to. 

Live in isolated area, so buying an old/cheap used wheel to learn/crash on is unfortunately not an option. Don't have an abundance of money to throw at a first wheel/s, so 'buy once, cry once' keeps making a lot of sense for me.

I would ideally like to get a suspension wheel. Probably (sensibly?) once I have a few weeks/months experience. A 14" rim with resulting 20" ish tyre seems to be what I would prefer to go for instead of (twitchier) 12" rim & 16/17" tyre. So if buying a wheel to learn on, it would be good to be able to keep it, for fun, shorter rides, or errands, when the time comes to upgrade.

OR.... (and this is where I should probably start a fresh topic) Do I just go straight to a suspension wheel (Lynx....hmmmmm) and cry more if/when I crash it.

I must say @Ethereal, part of me wishes you hadn't made your Clavicle video though.  Just kidding, it's a reality one would be foolish to discount. Especially given that I was in my twenties last century.. (there's a thought!) So thanks also.  

Mods, if this should be somewhere else, please educate/chastise me and move it to a more suitable location. 

Finally, thanks to @UniVehje for answering my how to post question, and also for the tip on how to tag (read annoy) other forum members into my ramble... 

The KS18XL was a great riding wheel. In a vacuum I would have no problems recommending it. And if you can get one on the cheap (I wouldn't pay more than $500, even for a new one, considering what more modern used wheels that you can get for not much more) by all means get it. 

For taller people with long legs, it's useful to have a wheel with a tall shell and lower pedals.

But really, people can learn on any wheel. I continue to recommend that people buy the best wheel that they can afford. They will minimize the desire/need to rapidly upgrade. Yet the used market now is substantially different than it was years ago. Now you can buy amazing wheels for less than a $1k. All the OG Sherman's out there, with the lower pedals, would make great learning wheels too.

[Marty Backe]

8 hours ago, Ethereal said:

It was quite unfortunate what happened to you. What made it worse was that it was a gift from Begode. 
The most important thing is that you are OK now after the surgery and seem to be rehabilitating well. 
 

I remember in your video that you stated your ankle had twisted to the point of breaking and was already broken before you even fell on the ground. Were you wearing any special pads on the A2 that might have locked you in too much?  You also stated that the wheel just randomly cutout on you. You were neither breaking nor accelerating and the cutout happened while you were maneuvering around cars. Could you have been at a strong tilt  angle when you had the cutout? 
 

 

Thank you for the well wishes.

I was riding a stock A2 with the "barely there" side pads. I was riding at the most mellow imaginable pace and style when the wheel "turned off" (it did not "cut out"). Imagine a Sunday afternoon stroll in the park, but on an EUC. No accelerations or extreme tilt angles 

I know the desire is to find a cause. Believe me, I wish there was. I was very frustrated when I was able to turn the wheel back on and that it continues to run to this day. Mine is not the first time that a wheel has randomly "turned off". Won't be the last. Fortunately it remains a rare occurrence.

Regarding the injury, I believe the ankle bones were snapped because of the extremely rapid twisting of the wheel when it turned off. My foot didn't have enough time to leave the wheel and get out of the way of a heavy fast rotating object. Chalk it up to a freak accident.

I will say that I was surprised (and maybe a little shocked) at how many people reached out to me with stories of their broken legs from EUC's. I have high visibility that most people don't. So when the "average" EUC rider breaks an ankle/foot/leg/shoulder/arm/wrist, nobody hears about it. My eyes have been opened.

Be sure that you have good medical coverage (my ankle recovery cost about $40k) and that you can deal with being incapacitated for a couple of months. Nobody wants to hear this but it's reality. 

[Marty Backe]

9 hours ago, Funky said:

So.. If next wheel powers off out of blue. You won't ride that wheel also?

Any wheel can suddenly power off. (Old battery that suddenly dies.. Motherboard dies..) Bad firmware, that could have made wheel power off also. You just had to meet right conditions, to make it power off. Speed, lean angle, power usage - it all could have plaid a role.

My guess why A2 powered off - Something was left inside the motherboard apartment. Small metal shaving or something. Mid ride it made a short circuit. And after fall it got thrown out.. That's why wheel worked like nothing happened.)

Is it that hard to imagine something left behind? Small solder ball. Metal Shaving. Anything that could make short circuit.

I'm not missing out on life by not ever riding an A2 again  Are you aware of the number of wheel choices that we have now? I have 13-wheels in my workshop to pick from right now.  The A2 not being one of them is not a problem for me.

I've been riding for 7-1/2 years. This is the first time a wheel has "turned off" on me while riding. I'm not too concerned about this becoming a common occurrence where I'll run out of wheels to ride because of my declaration that I won't ride a wheel that has turned off on me for no apparent reason 

P.s. All of those example reasons that you gave are indeed "reasons" for a wheel to turn off. If I knew why the A2 turned off and I could take corrective action, then I would ride it again. So your examples don't apply to my A2 failure scenario.

Edited December 18, 2023 by Marty Backe

[Funky]

30 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

I'm not missing out on life by not ever riding an A2 again  Are you aware of the number of wheel choices that we have now? I have 13-wheels in my workshop to pick from right now.  The A2 not being one of them is not a problem for me.

Lucky you - you have options..  And yes i am aware how many wheels we have now. (Most of them are those heavy monsters..) For my use case, i only have 18L/XL, 16X, V10 for choices. All rest of wheels are to small or to heavy.  Oh yes and A2.. Which is "somewhat" usable and is only wheel released past 4 years which isn't heavier than 25kg. Aside of Mten4 (Which i don't count as a "real" wheel.)

From my viewpoint, we haven't had any new wheels at all since 2018, only A2. 

30 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

I've been riding for 7-1/2 years. This is the first time a wheel has "turned off" on me while riding. I'm not too concerned about this becoming a common occurrence where I'll run out of wheels to ride because of my declaration that I won't ride a wheel that has turned off on me for no apparent reason 

I have ridden only 3 years. Also no cut-outs, etc.. I don't even gear up for my 2 mile commute daily. But back of my mind i know - i could kiss the ground any given moment.

30 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

P.s. All of those example reasons that you gave are indeed "reasons" for a wheel to turn off. If I knew why the A2 turned off and I could take corrective action, then I would ride it again. So your examples don't apply to my A2 failure scenario.

 If my wheel suddenly would power off. IDK what i would do.. If i can get back up - i probably would continue to ride, if wheel was working. But that's me.. I don't blame you not wanting to ride A2 ever again.. I get it.

Edited December 18, 2023 by Funky

[Ethereal]

3 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

Thank you for the well wishes.

I was riding a stock A2 with the "barely there" side pads. I was riding at the most mellow imaginable pace and style when the wheel "turned off" (it did not "cut out"). Imagine a Sunday afternoon stroll in the park, but on an EUC. No accelerations or extreme tilt angles 

I know the desire is to find a cause. Believe me, I wish there was. I was very frustrated when I was able to turn the wheel back on and that it continues to run to this day. Mine is not the first time that a wheel has randomly "turned off". Won't be the last. Fortunately it remains a rare occurrence.

Regarding the injury, I believe the ankle bones were snapped because of the extremely rapid twisting of the wheel when it turned off. My foot didn't have enough time to leave the wheel and get out of the way of a heavy fast rotating object. Chalk it up to a freak accident.

I will say that I was surprised (and maybe a little shocked) at how many people reached out to me with stories of their broken legs from EUC's. I have high visibility that most people don't. So when the "average" EUC rider breaks an ankle/foot/leg/shoulder/arm/wrist, nobody hears about it. My eyes have been opened.

Be sure that you have good medical coverage (my ankle recovery cost about $40k) and that you can deal with being incapacitated for a couple of months. Nobody wants to hear this but it's reality. 

This possibility of an accident anytime due to whatever reason whether random cutout or uneven terrain or whatever has made me want to learn falling techniques. When I had fractured my right ribs due to a pedal clip fall back in 2019, it really made an impact on my overall view of riding the EUC. As i was falling, I actually had a few milliseconds to decide whether I should use my hand to break my fall and possibly risk a wrist fracture. In that instant I had decided to just tuck my body and wish the best for me. My well padded elbow pads helped avoid a clavicular injury but my exposed ribs took the brunt of the fall. Since then is when I decided to study on YouTube many videos about breaking a fall. My previous young years heavy background in TaeKwonDo and Judo helped me to assimilate into learning  Parkour falls. With regards to your distal tibial and fibula fracture is the main reason why I don’t like pads that lock me in. I understand that you were wearing the stock A2 side pads so I will definitely consider possibly trimming those stock pads to prevent being locked in. 

I am quite sure you have PTSD from that A2 fall so I can truly understand why you will never ride an A2 again. I felt the same way when I fractured my right ribs. It took several months before I felt comfortable riding my wheel again. It certainly has increased my  situational awareness as well as motivating me to learn Parkour falls so I guess that’s the positive spin to my serious injury.

I truly agree about good medical coverage being so essential when we ride these dangerous one wheeled devices. The insurance companies will always whittle down whatever the doctors and hospitals try to charge you for. Add to that being in-network with your hospital and medical providers, that $40K bill will only end up that you will just have to pay the $2K deductible or whatever deductible  your insurance has set for you. 

Godspeed in your full recovery and return to pre-A2 health. 🙏🏻

[Ethereal]

9 hours ago, Voyager said:

TL;DR - My first post: Hello, move along now...  

Okay, so I've been following the forum for a couple of years at least, but have just joined up. Long time lurker etc.. So, first post, here goes nothing......  

@Ethereal Thank you for your video with your thoughts regarding the A2. I do agree it seems to be a great wheel to have for fun, run errands and everything you state. I do wonder if it is better suited as a 'second wheel' to a bigger. faster wheel, than a stand alone wheel for a beginner, which is what I'm trying to decide on. 

I notice in your wheel list, you have, or had, KS18L. Do you have any thoughts between A2 and the KS18L for a first wheel in (almost) 2024?  A few reviewers/influencers/pimps  have said A2 would be a great wheel to learn on. However, there are many contradicting opinions online also. When for instance, @Marty Backe let some people, in two separate groups, try it before setting off on separate group rides, there were mixed opinions given. I wonder what Marty would think these days about the KS18XL. Many moons & miles have passed since his days on that wheel...

EcoDrift.ru in their A2 video made about two months ago also stated "Maybe it's better to choose an old proven model". The reviewer offered many convincing reasons to do so. (KS16S in that instance).

Obviously there is no right or wrong answer here, but I wondered what you, or others thought about the newer A2 vs the older KS wheels, KS16S, Ks18XL for getting those first few km's and confidence happening.. I know @Funky often states he is perfectly happy with his 18L/XL hybrid for instance. By all accounts, it's the wheel with arguably the best track record of them all. That and 16X of course.

Bit of supporting info FYI. Taller at 186cm/6'1" Weight fluctuates, riding weight probably 82-86kg. (181-190lbs) Depending on time of year & pies eaten etc  Reasonably fit/athletic, sports background, so balance not too bad. Mostly quiet back roads & cycle path riding planned, mixture of smooth and quite bumpy surfaces (tree roots etc). No real offroad aspired to. 

Live in isolated area, so buying an old/cheap used wheel to learn/crash on is unfortunately not an option. Don't have an abundance of money to throw at a first wheel/s, so 'buy once, cry once' keeps making a lot of sense for me.

I would ideally like to get a suspension wheel. Probably (sensibly?) once I have a few weeks/months experience. A 14" rim with resulting 20" ish tyre seems to be what I would prefer to go for instead of (twitchier) 12" rim & 16/17" tyre. So if buying a wheel to learn on, it would be good to be able to keep it, for fun, shorter rides, or errands, when the time comes to upgrade.

OR.... (and this is where I should probably start a fresh topic) Do I just go straight to a suspension wheel (Lynx....hmmmmm) and cry more if/when I crash it.

I must say @Ethereal, part of me wishes you hadn't made your Clavicle video though.  Just kidding, it's a reality one would be foolish to discount. Especially given that I was in my twenties last century.. (there's a thought!) So thanks also.  

Mods, if this should be somewhere else, please educate/chastise me and move it to a more suitable location. 

Finally, thanks to @UniVehje for answering my how to post question, and also for the tip on how to tag (read annoy) other forum members into my ramble... 

Between the A2 and the KS18L as the first wheel, I would choose the KS18L. The 18L is more powerful and faster and certainly less squirelly. You can easily get an 18L or a Nikola with low mileage in the low $1K range. For a non-suspension wheel, I think the Nikola is the best bang for the buck. It has the toughest shell and is fast and powerful so more headroom before even being close to reaching cutoff speed.

I got the A2 because I wanted a smaller wheel to take with me when I go on vacation or a little wheel to ride on when I am at work and just need to unwind for a few minutes. Easy to store and the portability of the A2 is a great plus. The A2 reminds me so much of my KS14C. My other wheel is a  V13. I love the V13  for what it can do but sometimes I just want to do mellow riding  with minimal effort.  The A2 is a great second wheel for me.

[Hellkitten]

I have an m10-4 which has similar specs as this wheel. Are the differences just overall dimensions, waterproofing and the tire size? How do the rides compare? Why pick one over the other? 

[OldSolo]

I have found all of this interesting, and while SOMETHING happened (and we do not know what), I wonder why the continuing "Assassin wheel" language is thrown about.  I made a decision to buy one of these when first released and ALMOST cancelled due to "the Marty effect".  I didn't, and can say I am quite glad that I didn't.  It is a very solidly constructed wheel and is ideal for me as a learner.  I have been fascinated to see "the Marty effect" lead others to cancel pre-orders.  Obviously it doesn't help IM that Veteran has hit a homerun, albeit a very expensive one.

As far as a learner's wheel, statements about $500 used wheels are utter BS for most of us.  I have never SEEN another EUC, there are NO local supplies of used EUCs just waiting to be bought by people eager to try this sport.  Glad to hear that SoCal is overrun with used wheels ... but not having lived there for several decades, it doesn't help me nor work that way for people in most other areas.  The few wheels that get posted for sale on this board are far more expensive than that, and honestly seem overpriced.  The ones that aren't QUICKLY sell.

Look at the people seeking to find local riders/meetups.  Outside of a few population centers, there are not very many people at all.  A sub-$1000 EUC that is well constructed & of modest size is ideal for beginners, and an easier price to stomach before confronting the learning curve.  I certainly will be adding a larger, more powerful, suspension wheel at some point.  Having had an ankle fusion (degenerative arthritis secondary to unrecognized & untreated syndesmosis tear - the distal tib-fib ligaments, not ligaments to talus, etc) I can no longer ride a mountain bike and HOPE to recapture some of the joys of my years racing XC all over this nation.  A small, 'relatively' light learner wheel seems the best starting point, not an 80-90# suspension wheel.  That comes next.  I have pulled off various parts on my A2 & weighed them to get a sense of where the weight is v. the older, lighter 'plastic' wheels.  It would be nice 10# lighter, but I have a hard time seeing where to lose it other than stripping off the exterior padding, rear fender &  kickstand, etc.

I have read stories of first release wheels having multiple, repeated problems experienced by many riders.  Assassin, eh?  How MANY people have these Begode monstrosities killed, anyway?  As a counter, I confess to have enjoyed watching Roger riding in the rain in swim trunks & flip flops.  Perhaps I misread the implications but that struck me as a VERY strong rebuttal against "ASSASSIN" wheel.  He put forth a marvelously subtle mocking of this wheel being at all dangerous.  Now I am not about to stand up for a Chinese manufacturer given what I have seen of general business practices for several decades, but one accident of undetermined etiology causing an affordable, entry level product to be maligned with such a name.  Now I am delighted Marty did NOT get injured from his crap V-14, yet obvious and visible failure is downplayed but "A2 is DANGEROUS" when no flaw has been demonstrated.

But I am new in this community, my background & expertise in several other areas has no bearing on anything I say here.  I probably shouldn't even be writing anything, but MY PERSONAL OPINION (and not necessarily the opinion of our sponsors, electric doo-hickey manufacturers, or various other "hangers-on" ) there is just a bit too much "social media influencer" going around at times.  Fakebook & other social media just aren't my thing.  It is internet forums like these that really were "the best of the 'net" - glad this one is here & sad that some of my old favorites don't exist anymore (one Husqvarna forum was a treasure).  Anyway, I have blathered on long enough!

[Marty Backe]

1 hour ago, Voyager said:

Thanks Marty.

Regarding the 18XL - unfortunately, it seems I am living in said vacuum. I've never even seen anyone on a wheel where I am. Used market is non existent. Nearest dealer is literally thousands of km's away. OG Sherman, great wheel. I'd take one in a heart beat, but there's just nothing available that I've seen. As you'll remember, even back in the day people wished the tyre on 18XL was wider. So with the absence of suspension, I could imagine the desire to upgrade to a suspension wheel, would come quite quickly. 

Also, KS18XL here in Australia is unfortunately a lot more than the US$500 you mention. Looking at exchange rates, even the KS14D is 50% more than US$500 (converted) here.... It's frustrating knowing the abundance of used wheels you have available where you are. Great that you have the vibrant community though. 

Given my distance from any wheel community, I tend to agree with your advice "buy the best wheel they can afford". The more I think, given my location, I would be better to go the 'buy once, cry once' route, that I also mentioned in my post. As you say, minimising the desire/need to rapidly upgrade. 

Thanks for your thoughts.

I can imagine how difficult your decision is. If in your position I would probably be guided by whatever wheel met my needs on paper and had the most positive feedback from the community.

There are some diehard no-suspension folks out there but they are the outliers. Having suspension is an absolute game changer along with the big tires (instead of the skinny tires like the KS18XL - although when it was new the tire seemed massive).

Personally I would go with the Sherman S, Commander Pro, or EX30 as fantastic general purpose do it all wheels. The Sherman S is the highest quality wheel with the most plush suspension. The Commander Pro is very similar to the S in ride, faster, but lower build quality, and much cheaper. The EX30 is also very fast, more economical, and the most customizable of the bunch. I'd be happy if I was "stuck" with either of the three.