Are All A2s The Same?

[techyiam]

1 hour ago, Funky said:

People gonna learn on whatever wheel they get. Be big or small doesn't matter.

 

 

1 hour ago, Funky said:

We need both small and big.

Not necessarily true then.

Most learners are going to buy bigger wheels because they don't need upgrade as soon.

So, who is left, last-mile-device guys, and guys who live a few flights up without an elevator?]

So how profitable is this segment?

Well, manufacturers have not been frantically putting out new light and small wheels the last few years.

Additionally, what are the chances that a small and light euc will be rated for a 280+ lbs load?

 

[Funky]

5 hours ago, techyiam said:

 

Not necessarily true then.

Most learners are going to buy bigger wheels because they don't need upgrade as soon.

So, who is left, last-mile-device guys, and guys who live a few flights up without an elevator?]

So how profitable is this segment?

Well, manufacturers have not been frantically putting out new light and small wheels the last few years.

Additionally, what are the chances that a small and light euc will be rated for a 280+ lbs load?

 

You're missing my point.. Some DON'T need the "bigger" wheel in first place.. There are people who ride V8's daily.. Heck even V5's and D14's. They simply have no need of Sherman-S, Lynx, Patton, Commander.. type of wheels.

It's very profitable.. OUTSIDE of USA. Places or people who don't ride with cars..

World are full of people who use these things for last mile. Or have SMALL cities.. Small cities = small EUC'S. No street riding = Small EUC's again. Sidewalk riding = Small EUC'S. Will you be riding 60mph on sidewalks? NO - OFC NOT. Slower wheel and same time smaller is perfect for that. List goes on where small EUC'S are natural and only option for people.

No point saying anything on this type of forum. For people who are power users and ride only 110lbs wheels.. In my mind i think they would want cheaper/lighter models also to be made, as we would get even more new rider and over time EUC's would become same as cheap E-scooters. Only thing stopping that is old models that no-one really wants. And 2000$ price points..

280lbs hard chance. But 265lbs - it's a possibility. 

Edited December 22, 2023 by Funky

[techyiam]

38 minutes ago, Funky said:

It's very profitable.. OUTSIDE of USA. Places or people who don't ride with cars..

World are full of people who use these things for last mile. Or have SMALL cities.. Small cities = small EUC'S. No street riding = Small EUC's again. Sidewalk riding = Small EUC'S. Will you be riding 60mph on sidewalks? NO - OFC NOT. Slower wheel and same time smaller is perfect for that. List goes on where small EUC'S are natural and only option for people.

You are missing my point.

The manufacturers are happy not to put out new wheels in the small and light wheel categories for years.

And they are currently mainly chasing the 16" and 20" market, and rumoured to be the 20" (mainly), and 22" market for the 2024.

You can make all the claims you want about the small and light wheel market.

But the fact is the manufacturers are not interested in chasing the small and light wheel market segment.

Look at Leaper Kim when they first started out. They came out with a big and heavy wheel as their first wheel. Nope. Not a small and light wheel. If there was so much profit to be made, why didn't Leaper Kim chase after that market? In fact, to this day, Leaper Kim has never produced a small and light wheel. In fact, the 77 lbs. 20" OG Sherman is still their lightest wheel. Is Leaper Kim brain dead to skip out on a lucrative market segment?

Something is not adding up.

 

Edited December 22, 2023 by techyiam

[Funky]

20 minutes ago, techyiam said:

You are missing my point.

The manufacturers are happy not to put out new wheels in the small and light wheel categories for years.

And they are currently mainly chasing the 16" and 20" market, and rumoured to be the 20" (mainly), and 22" market for the 2024.

You can make all the claims you want about the small and light wheel market.

But the fact is the manufacturers are not interested in chasing the small and light wheel market segment.

Look at Leaper Kim when they first started out. They came out with a big and heavy wheel as their first wheel. Nope. Not a small and light wheel. If there was so much profit to be made, why didn't Leaper Kim chase after that market?

 

I already where talking about that day ago.. Same time to make small or big wheel = naturally they would PREFER to make big one that sells for 2-3x AMOUNT of $$$. I'm saying that ignoring small/cheap category is WRONG to do. BUT from profitability point of view smart to do. 

I'm not talking about profits.. I'm talking about the need to have lightweight wheels. It's the same as making cars/motorcycles. And right-out stop making bicycles suddenly. People still want to ride bicycles.. And they want new bicycles also.

Edited December 22, 2023 by Funky

[techyiam]

19 minutes ago, Funky said:

I'm saying that ignoring small/cheap category is WRONG to do.

Begode / Extreme Bull, Inmotion, Kingsong, and Leaper Kim are businesses. The very definition of a business is to make profit, lots of it if possible.

These are not charities.

If new riders don't need small and light euc's to learn to ride, there is no incentive for the manufacturers to make them. They need to grow the community so there will be more and more riders to upgrade to more capable models, which are more profitable.

Early on, all they knew was how to do light and small wheels, since the euc market grew from the leisure and recreation market.

If there is enough profit to be made in the small and light market, and the big four are not interested, there will be somebody coming in to pickup the slack.

 

[Funky]

4 hours ago, techyiam said:

Begode / Extreme Bull, Inmotion, Kingsong, and Leaper Kim are businesses. The very definition of a business is to make profit, lots of it if possible.

These are not charities.

If new riders don't need small and light euc's to learn to ride, there is no incentive for the manufacturers to make them. They need to grow the community so there will be more and more riders to upgrade to more capable models, which are more profitable.

Early on, all they knew was how to do light and small wheels, since the euc market grew from the leisure and recreation market.

Everything you say is right.. Aside of the learner and growing community. 

Again you are talking about smaller wheels as leaners.. Can you please not call smaller wheels as learners? For some those learner  wheels are perfect and is the only wheel they will ever need.. You wanna say that after 3 years i'm still learning? Because i own a smaller wheel? Nah.. And another one whos have been riding 14" for more than 5 years also is still learning?

Growing community? How? If some of the community members want smaller/lighter wheels, for them only options is to buy a 30-50kg wheel or an old model.. Those members are ignored. So stop talking about "community", don't make me laugh. Your community is only members with performance wheels..

Also about making profits. Make a ducking small wheel and sell it for 2000$ - People gonna buy it ANYWAYS. Because they need a small wheel! We don't care that you can buy and epic ducking monster for same price. We are paying for form factor! Same as small Computers vs big ones. You pay premium for small form factor! How hard is not to understand that? They can take 2500$ price and people still would buy an V8 for that price. (I am just going over board, just to show my point.)

4 hours ago, techyiam said:

If there is enough profit to be made in the small and light market, and the big four are not interested, there will be somebody coming in to pickup the slack.

When doh?

Edited December 22, 2023 by Funky

[Funky]

Let's not continue this.. Because we ALL are right in our own way.

 

And if you have look at what i am saying not only from your big wheel viewpoint, but as someone who wants to use only smaller wheels. You would also agree to what i am saying.

Same time if i would own a big wheel and only would use these 100lbs wheels.. I also would agree about making only big wheels and smaller wheels being "useless" and not worth making..

 

Two separate groups, but both love EUC's.. Doh one are getting more love from manufacturers. 

Edited December 22, 2023 by Funky

[Mono]

19 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

I have zero interest in the people who use them for strictly practical reasons.

That's a pity, I would have thought you were more open to various motivations to ride an EUC.

Practical reasons have little to do with the small vs big (rather: light vs heavy) wheel question. Like with bicycles and motorcycles, both type of wheels can legitimately be used purely for fun or purely for practical reasons.

17 hours ago, techyiam said:

ewheels is saying the smaller wheels for 2023 has really plummeted. If a last-mile-device guy need a wheel, he will be out of luck, if the trend continues. Once the market of small wheels sinks, and dealers will also carry fewer wheels.

This may well be a north American phenomenon and different in other parts of the world. Sales numbers are also driven by supply, not only by demand.

11 hours ago, Funky said:

There are people who ride V8's daily.. Heck even V5's and D14's.

Totally true.

10 hours ago, techyiam said:

The manufacturers are happy not to put out new wheels in the small and light wheel categories for years.

Right, but Inmotion and KingSong have updated their light wheels still recently, and at least some of them with quite significant changes. I can totally see that the profit margin for new models favors expensive wheels, and it's hard/impossible to sell a small wheel for big $$$. Hence, manufacturers develop, for the time being, only $$$-wheels. I would accept a pretty big $$$ bet on that this is not going to last forever and some manufacturers will eventually start to milk the small $ market demand too.

 

Edited December 22, 2023 by Mono

[Funky]

16 minutes ago, Mono said:

Right, but Inmotion and KingSong have updated their light wheels still recently, and at least some of them with quite significant changes. I can totally see that the profit margin for new models favors expensive wheels, and it's hard/impossible to sell a small wheel for big $$$. Hence, manufacturers develop, for the time being, only $$$-wheels. I would accept a pretty big $$$ bet on that this is not going to last forever and some manufacturers will eventually start to milk the small $ market demand too.

I would even pay $$$ for $ wheel.. Sadly i don't see any $ wheels made.. People who really want small wheel can even pay 2000$ for V8 performance. Then again some will QQ why it cost so much.. You can get big-big boy wheel for same price. Who cares... You buy your big boy wheel and i will buy my small boy wheel for same price.

I'm spending my money for the performance i need. Two options: both cost 2000$ getting V13 or 18XL. I'll take 18XL every single time.

Edited December 22, 2023 by Funky

[Mono]

22 hours ago, Funky said:

Small updates doesn't make sense to me. You would be buying same wheel again.. If old one is working just fine - what's the point?

KInda true . Yet, the updates from the original V8 to the latest V8F or even the V8S would be all in all big enough for me to go for it (after a few years of using the original wheel).

22 hours ago, Funky said:

I'm riding around 25km/h myself. 35km/h is the max speed i would want out of the wheel. (Better would be 40km/h - which is reasonable speed for 700-1000Wh wheel with nowadays batteries vs what we had 5-6 years ago.)

These small updates won't suddenly include hollow bore motor, waterproofness, etc.. For that you need to make new wheel from ground up. Hey if V8F had solid axle - it would nod me it's way. As it's very light wheel and on my regular bicycle i was going 25-30km/h, mostly 20km/h without hurry.

The current V8F does have a very solid axle, I kinda suspect that it's pretty much unbreakable, unless mounted with more sturdy pedals to apply the necessary force (and even then, I am not so sure ). Indeed, that's one of the more significant updates Inmotion made to the V8F.

 

[Mono]

1 minute ago, Funky said:

I would even pay $$$ for $ wheel

same here if I were convinced about its quality, but I think we are a too small minority to be market relevant

[Funky]

7 minutes ago, Mono said:

The current V8F does have a very solid axle, I kinda suspect that it's pretty much unbreakable, unless mounted with more sturdy pedals to apply the necessary force (and even then, I am not so sure ). Indeed, that's one of the more significant updates Inmotion made to the V8F.

Hmm.. Will need to re-check the V8F. 

6 minutes ago, Mono said:

I think we are a too small minority to be market relevant

And we will just get smaller - because we aren't getting any wheels.

Edited December 22, 2023 by Funky

[Mono]

5 minutes ago, Funky said:

Hmm.. Will need to re-check the V8F. 

FTR, the weight has evolved too to be close to 17kg. The direct competitor would than be the KS-16S, so I wonder why this is not on your shortlist? Discussing the pros and cons of existing light wheels could become a new topic thread?

[Funky]

20 minutes ago, Mono said:

FTR, the weight has evolved too to be close to 17kg. The direct competitor would than be the KS-16S, so I wonder why this is not on your shortlist? Discussing the pros and cons of existing light wheels could become a new topic thread?

Rechecked it - It's mostly to do with side mounted motherboard.. I simply feel better when it's at very top of euc. (For my own reasons..) Also 2.125 tire is very thin. Same tire as 16S and i don't like it under my heavy mass.  Only reason i almost bough one day A2 was it's tire... Hot dam it's a thick boy and so many options of tires to choose from. Me likey.  

Why euc's can't have rims and wheel wells specially made to use motorcycle/moped tires.. 10" 12" 14" So many tire options to choose from. (10" is same diameter as ~16x2.125") And also much better quality. Good thing most big wheels have that option already. Doh rim isn't really made right-out for motorcycle/moped tire in mind yet..

[Mono]

3 minutes ago, Funky said:

Rechecked it - It's mostly to do with side mounted motherboard.. I simply feel better when it's at very top of euc. (For my own reasons..) Also 2.125 tire is very thin.

True, the latest V8F may fit a 2.3" tire, but I can't say for sure. I'd totally prefer to have the choice up to at least 2.5".

3 minutes ago, Funky said:

Same tire as 16S and i don't like it under my heavy mass.  Only reason i almost bough one day A2 was it's tire... Hot dam it's a thick boy and so many options of tires to choose from. Me likey.  

Why euc's can't have rims and wheel wells specially made to use motorcycle/moped tires.. 10" 12" 14" So many tire options to choose from.

I'd prefer a bicycle tire over a motorcycle tire, because I expect the former to be a more comfortable ride. Motorcycle tires are thicker and, I suspect, usually more rigid with much less flexible flanks. They are made for vehicles with suspension and with more than 2 kW power which both doesn't apply to my use case.

[Funky]

51 minutes ago, Mono said:

I'd prefer a bicycle tire over a motorcycle tire, because I expect the former to be a more comfortable ride. Motorcycle tires are thicker and, I suspect, usually more rigid with much less flexible flanks. They are made for vehicles with suspension and with more than 2 kW power which both doesn't apply to my use case.

Funny thing: going from 1488 to K66 tubeless was no difference to me. Both rode around 30psi. Simply put less air inside the thicker one and it will be the same as bicycle one. Or get winter tire, they usually have softer rubber. Doesn't matter that it's winter rated. You will easily go 10.000km without worry. Sametime have very robust M/C tire. 

Edited December 22, 2023 by Funky

[techyiam]

7 hours ago, Mono said:

Right, but Inmotion and KingSong have updated their light wheels still recently, and at least some of them with quite significant changes.

(1) Inmotion V11Y:     65.5 lbs.

(2) Kingsong S16:    68.3 lbs.

So, 65+ lbs is the new "light weight" I suppose.

I hate to have to lug these wheels up to a 3rd floor flat fews times a day.

The V11Y is structurally still a V11 with the first gen type suspension design. And the V11 was not considered a small and light wheel when it was first came out. And the V11Y weighs more.

Those who have been happy riding their V8's as a last mile device will be in for a rude awakening when they unbox their V11Y.

Based on the trend that we are seeing, the new "light weight" may continue to gain weight.  

Edited December 22, 2023 by techyiam

[Funky]

9 minutes ago, techyiam said:

(1) Inmotion V11Y:     65.5 lbs.

(2) Kingsong S16:    68.3 lbs.

So, 65+ lbs is the new "light weight" I suppose.

I hate to have to lug these wheels up to a 3rd floor flat fews times a day.

The V11Y is structurally still a V11 with the first gen type suspension design. And the V11 was not considered a small and light wheel when it was first came out. And the V11Y weighs more.

Based on the trend that we are seeing, the new "light weight" may continue to gain weight.  

He/We were talking about V8F and Kingsong 16S. Not the new heavy turds.  

What you gonna update on just released wheels.. Hello?  

9 minutes ago, techyiam said:

I hate to have to lug these wheels up to a 3rd floor flat fews times a day.

Same here. That's why i want something in 20kg weight mainly. If i didn't have to do that 2-4 times daily, i would buy top-notch wheel.

Edited December 22, 2023 by Funky

[Hellkitten]

@Funky How many steps or how much lifting do you need to do when you go out to ride? What kind of obstacles do you maneuver past?

[Funky]

11 minutes ago, Hellkitten said:

@Funky How many steps or how much lifting do you need to do when you go out to ride? What kind of obstacles do you maneuver past?

Emm. Down 3rd floor. In train (we got them old ones, where you walk up.. Also carry in train, as i don't power it up in there..) Workplace need to carry starting from entry door. (I work in metal shop - ground full of sharp metal shavings. Around 30-50 meters?) Also second floor at work. Same way when going back home. Every working day.

Some times i also need to ride to store so again 3rd floor. 27kg isn't that heavy.. But i would prefer if my wheel went 10km/h slower and had half of the battery at 20kg weight. Still have enough speed and could charge it once per week. 

Also my right arm is kind of messed up right now. So i can carry only with left... Good thing it's my left arm, it's my strong arm. (Wink-Wink) 

Edited December 22, 2023 by Funky
Spelling.. English - i don't use it in real world.

[Hellkitten]

@Funky Gotcha. Thanks for the reply. I was just curious as to the amount of lifting you required on a regular day. That is much more then I do, I have to say. 

[Funky]

3 minutes ago, Hellkitten said:

@Funky Gotcha. Thanks for the reply. I was just curious as to the amount of lifting you required on a regular day. That is much more then I do, I have to say. 

Yeah. Good thing i don't actually need those big wheels. Otherwise i would be screwed up.. But down deep i would wanna own one. I simply have no need for such powerful device.. Riding on sidewalks you don't need the speed. I can leave house 5 mins faster and easily ride 20km/h speed if i need to. Also i don't gear up, so ridding slower is even better.. But i time-to-time hit 30km/h speeds. But rarely.. And when ever i speed up i'm ready for fall incoming.  

Edited December 22, 2023 by Funky

[techyiam]

9 minutes ago, Funky said:

Down 3rd floor. In train (we got them old ones, where you walk up.. Also carry in train as i don't power it up in there..) Workplace need to carry starting from entry door. (I work in metal shop - ground full of sharp metal shavings. Around 30-50 meters?) Also second floor at work. Same way when going back home. Every working day.

Some times i also need to ride to store so again 3rd floor. 25kg isn't that heavy.. But i would prefer if my wheel went 10km/h slower and had half of the battery at 20kg weight. Still have enough speed and could charge it once per week. 

Holy Moley, that is a lot carrying.

Hmm. you may have to custom build your own.

[Funky]

Just now, techyiam said:

Holy Moley, that is a lot carrying.

Hmm. you may have to custom build your own.

Now i don't know if you're making fun of me.. Or you finally understand why i want lightweight wheels...  Not everyone owns a private house where you can ride out of their own garage. Or have a lift. And there can't be only me - who has same problem as i do. Older/weaker folk.. Simple fact that not needing the speed and range.

My dads for example is 58 old. And he has to do the same thing i do every day.. And he's one of those "skinny" types. At times he has said even his 18kg wheel is to heavy.

I have even tried pushing wheel from backside. Doesn't work for me. Still doesn't fix all of the rest carrying scenarios..

[techyiam]

Just now, Funky said:

Now i don't know if you're making fun of me.. Or you finally understand why i want lightweight wheels...

Not making fun.

You do really need a last mile device.