Just crashed

[Cerbera]

48 minutes ago, onewheelkoregro said:

Only having to charge maybe once a week is very appealing to me

I wouldn't think like that. Better to charge a bit before every ride so you always start with full voltage. That way you always have maximum headroom, and can get full performance from the wheel rather than being at additional risk of cut-out because voltage was low to start with.

Edited June 22, 2023 by Cerbera

[chanman]

2 hours ago, mrelwood said:

The battery voltage was at 73.5 just before the crash

We're guessing without the tilt angle sensor, but I would put the actual overlean start at 2023-06-20T07:42:20.909-0600, where there is a sudden draw of 30 amps, a bit of acceleration at already a high speed, and the voltage drops to 71.3V. The few seconds after could be explained by an attempt to recover, followed by the rider falling off and the wheel continuing forward a bit before it comes to a stop.

Actually the time scales don't quite make sense, that's a full 10 seconds before the wheel starts slowing down? Not so easy to believe but if there was an overlean that's where it is I guess. I'm still trying to figure the seemingly slow deceleration of the wheel, is that a wheel without a rider that coasted for a while? How did it get damaged so badly if it just coasted to a stop?

Edited June 22, 2023 by chanman

[onewheelkoregro]

34 minutes ago, chanman said:

We're guessing without the tilt angle sensor, but I would put the actual overlean start at 2023-06-20T07:42:20.909-0600, where there is a sudden draw of 30 amps, a bit of acceleration at already a high speed, and the voltage drops to 71.3V. The few seconds after could be explained by an attempt to recover, followed by the rider falling off and the wheel continuing forward a bit before it comes to a stop.

Actually the time scales don't quite make sense, that's a full 10 seconds before the wheel starts slowing down? Not so easy to believe but if there was an overlean that's where it is I guess. I'm still trying to figure the seemingly slow deceleration of the wheel, is that a wheel without a rider that coasted for a while? How did it get damaged so badly if it just coasted to a stop?

As I fell I saw the wheel flip and it hit right it front of me, I saw the headlight unit pop off completely. That's all I saw before I started rolling then slid spotted my wheel and the headlight unit jumped up from the ground held the headlight in my hand and then continued home. 

[onewheelkoregro]

I was almost home when this occured, thankfully as well. All in all I am just happy Amazon is doing the right thing and refunding my money. I've already ordered an Inmotion V12 so let's see how those roll. And I am also going to purchase the two year warranty because why be cheap if I'm financing it anyway?

[gon2fast]

1 hour ago, onewheelkoregro said:

I've already ordered an Inmotion V12

Via Amazon or a EUC reseller like eWheels or Alien Rides? Amazon is great for no question returns, but replacements parts and general support are not their forte.

[on one]

4 hours ago, onewheelkoregro said:

Amazon Customer Service for the win! I was able to return my Ks16x to Amazon and they are giving me a full refund

I am very happy for you! Congratulations!

[mrelwood]

3 hours ago, chanman said:

We're guessing without the tilt angle sensor, but I would put the actual overlean start at 2023-06-20T07:42:20.909-0600, where there is a sudden draw of 30 amps, a bit of acceleration at already a high speed, and the voltage drops to 71.3V. The few seconds after could be explained by an attempt to recover

Doesn’t quite fit. That’s a short medium-hard acceleration for sure, but still peaks only at 2095W. We see comparable and higher wattage several times before that. An attempt to recover an overlean would show as maximum wattage, 0% safety margin, and high amps. A self-balancing vehicle tries it’s best to stay upright. The 10 seconds after your mentioned time shows max 1621W, 22.46A and min 32% safety margin. That’s only a light acceleration.

3 hours ago, chanman said:

I'm still trying to figure the seemingly slow deceleration of the wheel

Me too. I can imagine a wheel sliding and tire rotating for 10 seconds after a crash at 40km/h, but not 20 seconds (GPS speed). Maybe the GPS speed is just not accurate enough, and is averaged enough to show speed still after a full stop.

 Then again, the wattage values don’t show up as a crash either. If the motor had been disengaged like I originally thought, the wattage would’ve been zero or negative all of a sudden before the speed started to slow down. Now it just shows up as if the rider were braking, and even has a one instance of 1095W as the speed picks up a bit.

@onewheelkoregro, are you sure this is the correct .csv for the crash?

3 hours ago, chanman said:

How did it get damaged so badly if it just coasted to a stop?

A self-balancing vehicle doesn’t “coast” to a stop after a crash. When the wheel tilts to over 45 degrees in any direction in an overlean or balancing board failure, balancing stops, the motor is disengaged, and the motor itself slowly rolls to a stop. But the vehicle itself rolls or slides uncontrollably. I don’t think we see this in the .csv though.

[Bizra6ot]

1 hour ago, mrelwood said:

@onewheelkoregro, are you sure this is the correct .csv for the crash?

I watched the file and that's what I thought too, having experienced plenty crashes of all kinds on & off-road that I always monitored, there's nothing comparable here the data is not muddled it really looks like nothing happened lol

The only strange thing is the final deceleration which is far too long and smooth + the voltage reading on the last line 

[mike_bike_kite]

I've read (fairly quickly) through this thread and I don't get why there's any debate.

The KS16X is known to have a safe riding speed of 27mph (43kph) on a full battery. I know it's advertised as a 30mph (50kph) wheel but that's in perfect conditions with 100% battery. Here we have a new(ish) rider, riding near the limit, with a battery at 50% and into a 20 mph headwind - that's far from perfect. I agree with KS, it's rider error.

After the crash, the wheel only had superficial damage as the rider could ride it home. Then the rider fiddled with the internal wiring and completely killed the wheel - and he wants KS to pay for all this???

[onewheelkoregro]

1 hour ago, mike_bike_kite said:

I've read (fairly quickly) through this thread and I don't get why there's any debate.

The KS16X is known to have a safe riding speed of 27mph (43kph) on a full battery. I know it's advertised as a 30mph (50kph) wheel but that's in perfect conditions with 100% battery. Here we have a new(ish) rider, riding near the limit, with a battery at 50% and into a 20 mph headwind - that's far from perfect. I agree with KS, it's rider error.

After the crash, the wheel only had superficial damage as the rider could ride it home. Then the rider fiddled with the internal wiring and completely killed the wheel - and he wants KS to pay for all this???

I didn't want Kingsong to just replace my wheel. I wanted them just to acknowledge I didn't do anything wrong and replace the headlight unit. I really wish my city had cameras at intersections because then there would be video. I wouldn't call myself an "experienced" rider but I am not a newbie either. I wear headphones that allow me to hear traffic around me and get speed and over power alerts directly into my ear. There were three cars at a light I passed the last car got in between that one and the car in front was accelerating not to hard because I had to turn right after the light but instead my wheel literally threw me with no warning.

[onewheelkoregro]

This is the only EUC world log that I have for that day so unless EUC world didn't log the trip I don't know where the file would be. But I remember hearing speed alerts throughout the trip and otw home I took it a lot easier than the first couple of miles

[mike_bike_kite]

18 minutes ago, onewheelkoregro said:

I didn't want Kingsong to just replace my wheel. I wanted them just to acknowledge I didn't do anything wrong and replace the headlight unit. I really wish my city had cameras at intersections because then there would be video. I wouldn't call myself an "experienced" rider but I am not a newbie either. I wear headphones that allow me to hear traffic around me and get speed and over power alerts directly into my ear. There were three cars at a light I passed the last car got in between that one and the car in front was accelerating not to hard because I had to turn right after the light but instead my wheel literally threw me with no warning.

It's just a question of understanding what keeps these wheels upright. All EUC's need a certain amount of power to maintain a certain speed. They also have a limit to what speed they will go depending on the battery charge. When they show the top speed for a wheel it's on a flat smooth road, zero wind, a 100% battery and a 75Kg rider and using smooth acceleration. As the battery voltage goes down and conditions change, the wheel won't go as fast. With a 76V battery you're close to 50%. Also, as you accelerate, the voltage will drop as it provides the extra power. If you're riding into a 20mph headwind then the wheel will need even more power. That means the power in the battery could easily dip below 40% if only for a moment. At 40% (I think) KS has a lower set of speed limits it implements. If you happen to be riding above the new speed limit then the wheel will cut out. Here's a thread on speed throttling. 

It would obviously be better if wheels tilted us back at this point but doing that requires more power than the wheel has available. It's not a KS thing, I believe all wheels have a similar behaviour. Some very skilled riders are fast enough to react and seem to brake with the wheel at that point. I'm fairly certain that if it happened to me then I'd just crash. I tend do pay a lot of attention to my wheel's voltage and, if it's low, then I ride very cautiously. I do the same if I start hearing beeping where I wouldn't normally hear it. I also have a protective cover on my wheel which works well - they don't perform miracles but they do help. The price here is in NZD so don't get too alarmed.

I'll admit I really liked the 16X but I wanted a wheel I could ride at 30mph as that's the speed of the traffic on the "faster" roads I ride on. I actually prefer riding at 25mph as it just feels more relaxing but I just don't like cars trying to squeeze past. 

[on one]

I still like King Song; I think they make great products, but can somebody help me understand why @onewheelkoregro didn't get titlbacks? It's impossible for me to have an over lean on my KS-14D because I always get a tiltback, even on low battery and I'm over the weight limit. Why didn't @onewheelkoregro get a tiltback like I always do? That's why I think there was something wrong with his wheel. I hope King Song can learn to have better customer service.

[Kakes11]

12 hours ago, mrelwood said:

Rebuilding suspension systems is fun, I agree! With Master it comes with a cost though. Besides, read the Master thread before indulging thoughts about getting that one…

Suspension definitely is the future for most new EUCs, maybe their system isn't the best or can be changed out for coil suspension. It may be better than dealing with random Inmotion errors and sudden accelerations. 

[Bizra6ot]

1 hour ago, onewheelkoregro said:

This is the only EUC world log that I have for that day so unless EUC world didn't log the trip I don't know where the file would be. But I remember hearing speed alerts throughout the trip and otw home I took it a lot easier than the first couple of miles

Does the time match? It's listed in the 1st column

[mrelwood]

 

44 minutes ago, Kakes11 said:

sudden accelerations. 

How many wheels do you know of having had that issue?

[Funky]

10 hours ago, onewheelkoregro said:

I was almost home when this occured, thankfully as well. All in all I am just happy Amazon is doing the right thing and refunding my money.

Full refund? Or only what you had payed off? (You said that you where still paying it off..)

[Kakes11]

19 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

 

How many wheels do you know of having had that issue?

Not sure the number but enough for it to be mentioned by members in the forum as well as youtubers. I'm not trying to argue, all wheels have their pros/cons and faults. While operable with both wheels he's considering I believe it would be more fun for onewheelkoregro if he had an experience he hasn't had with his current wheel and that's a faster higher voltage suspension wheel.  

[mrelwood]

4 hours ago, mike_bike_kite said:

I've read (fairly quickly) through this thread and I don't get why there's any debate.

You probably need to look at the .csv file that was provided to understand why there is debate. I recognize that it might not point to the actual crash, but currently that's all we have to go by.

4 hours ago, mike_bike_kite said:

Here we have a new(ish) rider, riding near the limit, with a battery at 50% and into a 20 mph headwind

The reported battery level was 71%. If you calculate the percentage from the linear voltage scale instead of what the 16X reports, the battery level at rest was 62%, and at the time of the incident it was 50%.

 

1 hour ago, mike_bike_kite said:

When they show the top speed for a wheel it's on a flat smooth road, zero wind, a 100% battery and a 75Kg rider and using smooth acceleration.

That applies to only wheels that don't have a top speed limit. Kingsongs and Inmotions are capable of riding at the top speed limit down to 30-50% battery depending on the model. (For V13 it's 80%, but it's at a very different speed.)

1 hour ago, mike_bike_kite said:

With a 76V battery you're close to 50%. Also, as you accelerate, the voltage will drop as it provides the extra power. If you're riding into a 20mph headwind then the wheel will need even more power. That means the power in the battery could easily dip below 40% if only for a moment. At 40% (I think) KS has a lower set of speed limits it implements.

At the time of the incident battery voltage was at 73.5V, riding speed was 39km/h (reported), and power utilization at around 1000W. Even the .csv shows that the wheel is very easily capable of providing twice the amount of power, with that exact charge level. The wheel was not at it's limits by any measure.

1 hour ago, mike_bike_kite said:

If you happen to be riding above the new speed limit then the wheel will cut out.

No, it will tilt you back a good bit before it's overleaned. Kingsongs and Inmotions have a dynamic tilt-back that reacts to speed, battery level, and burden.

1 hour ago, mike_bike_kite said:

It would obviously be better if wheels tilted us back at this point but doing that requires more power than the wheel has available.

No, the wheel will tilt back much earlier, when there is plenty of power left. And the tilt-back itself doesn't really consume any extra power. If there's not enough power for a tilt-back, there wouldn't be enough power to start braking either. Because to start braking, you have to accelerate the wheel to get in front of you. Exactly what the tilt-back does as well.

 

1 hour ago, earthtwin said:

can somebody help me understand why @onewheelkoregro didn't get titlbacks?

Based on the .csv, the wheel wasn't anywhere near any limits that would've triggered a tilt-back. But what we see in the .csv might not point to the exact event that we're talking about.

 

47 minutes ago, Bizra6ot said:

Does the time match? It's listed in the 1st column

This! The time at the .csv was 7:42:30. Not sure which time zone it reports it as though.

[alcatraz]

It's best to treat any wheel, regardless of brand, as a potential crash waiting to happen.

Build confidence over time. Personally I wouldn't be hitting 47km/h within the first 500 miles. I'm not that brave. 

Get a wheel that can do what you want it to without getting close to any limits. That should reduce the risk of failure. Then the control board is overbuilt. 

There's also value in a wheel that can be easily disassembled and is less complicated. That means fewer things that can break and it's easier to do maintenance, and maybe notice something before there's injury. It helps to be DIY.

Also, most Chinese riders are way way wayyyy below 200lbs. Don't trust the advertised max speed.

[mrelwood]

19 minutes ago, Kakes11 said:

Not sure the number but enough for it to be mentioned by members in the forum as well as youtubers.

WronWay Adam's incident alone is enough to spread like a wildfire and get everyone talking about it. It doesn't make it a common issue with the wheel model. It's an unexplainable and an incredible incident for sure, but it's very very far from being common.

19 minutes ago, Kakes11 said:

I believe it would be more fun for onewheelkoregro if he had an experience he hasn't had with his current wheel and that's a faster higher voltage suspension wheel.  

I definitely agree with that. But Master? Hard no. The Master discussion thread and the Telegram chat groups (and our local chats) show that it actually has a very large number of faulty and problematic units.

[mrelwood]

10 minutes ago, alcatraz said:

Don't trust the advertised max speed.

Again, if the speed is limited by software, it has an ample headroom for heavier riders and various circumstances.

The V11 has a free spin speed of 78km/h. So has the 84V MSX. The MSX is considered as a 60-65km/h (unlimited) wheel, the V11 is a 50/55km/h (limited) wheel. There's a good amount of headroom still at the V11's top speed limit.

[Kakes11]

9 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

WronWay Adam's incident alone is enough to spread like a wildfire and get everyone talking about it. It doesn't make it a common issue with the wheel model. It's an unexplainable and an incredible incident for sure, but it's very very far from being common.

I definitely agree with that. But Master? Hard no. The Master discussion thread and the Telegram chat groups (and our local chats) show that it actually has a very large number of faulty and problematic units.

I appreciate your knowledge. Maybe these conversations will help onewheelkoregro choose his next wheel. 

[alcatraz]

5 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

Again, if the speed is limited by software, it has an ample headroom for heavier riders and various circumstances.

The V11 has a free spin speed of 78km/h. So has the 84V MSX. The MSX is considered as a 60-65km/h (unlimited) wheel, the V11 is a 50/55km/h (limited) wheel. There's a good amount of headroom still at the V11's top speed limit.

I'm talking about the entire ownership of a wheel. Not one or two fast rides.

Who knows what sort of accelerated board wear occurs when you ride with a lower safety limit for years.

I'm trying to convey a long term perspective. Perhaps I should have mentioned that. The op seemed very disappointed. How can he minimize the risk etc, and be confident again.

[alcatraz]

And no, riding at a massive safety limit doesn't guarantee against board failures. Fully aware of this. Just mitigating risks here...