Modern EUC prices are getting out of hand?

[techyiam]

Lithium battery cells are manufactured in huge volume now. So the prices have come down. But this wasn't always the case. Lithium battery cells used to be super expensive. 

The rest of an electric wheel: chassis, controller, BMS's, suspension., etc., basically the wheel minus the battery cells, and tire, are primarily custom part produced in small niche batches. 

Bob Yan was saying it is really a headache to source quality parts in low volume at affordable prices. And he says this applies to all his competitors as well. And this is happening in China. I can't imagine how anyone else is going to do better in the US.

Being able to manufacture competitively priced electric wheels is already a monumental challenge. Then an equally difficult task would be to be able to sell them in large enough quantities.

Let say you managed to produce a batch. Are your wheels going to ride and perform competitively. And inevitably, there will be riders who will go on Red Bull Rampage like rides, and then go online complaining that they were short changed because their wheels didn't hold up, lack torque, pedal dipped, and etc. Some would even drop them in a pond and complained that the wheel was poorly made since the wheel wouldn't work anymore, and wished they had bought an Inmotion wheel instead. 

Edited April 17, 2023 by techyiam

[Mark.on.2.wheels]

I think I mentioned, I know all this wheel tech, as well as phones and drones, come from Chyna.

But it's also easy to argue that much of their starter tech was given them by a former President, as well as some indiscreet legislators. 

No need to go there, it is what it is. 

I'll still buy one, and sooner than later.

[Cerbera]

1 hour ago, techyiam said:

Lithium battery cells are manufactured in huge volume now. So the prices have come down. But this wasn't always the case. Lithium battery cells used to be super expensive. 

...and now they're gonna be super expensive again because supply can barely keep up with demand, now the cars need such huge volumes of it too. It takes a frightening amount of ore to produce the lithium for just 1 tesla - 500,000 lbs of earth have to be moved to produce enough lithium, cobalt and copper for that one car.

[Finn Bjerke]

[techyiam]

Very recent trend did show a slight increase, but it certainly wasn't what we saw in the early years.

[mrelwood]

 

5 hours ago, techyiam said:

Let say you managed to produce a batch. Are your wheels going to ride and perform competitively. And inevitably, there will be riders who will go on Red Bull Rampage like rides, and then go online complaining

I think this is exactly what the Inmotion roadmap is set to solve. It’s surreal to think that every new wheel would have to perform competitively. My car definitely doesn’t perform anywhere near as competitively as some cars already in the 60’s, yet it was a near perfect choice for me. Expecting every new release to be more competitive than the previous one is a Pyramid Scheme, it’s simply not possible, and definitely not productive.

 Rampage riders definitely need wheels that are designed for a very different use case than what the rider masses do. No point in paying for something you don’t need.

Edited April 16, 2023 by mrelwood

[techyiam]

7 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

 

I think this is exactly what the Inmotion roadmap is set to solve. It’s surreal to think that every new wheel would have to perform competitively. My car definitely doesn’t perform anywhere near as competitively as some cars already in the 60’s, yet it was a near perfect choice for me. Expecting every new release to be more competitive than the previous one is a Pyramid Scheme, it’s simply not possible, and definitely not productive.

 Rampage riders definitely need wheels that are designed for a very different use case than what the rider masses do. No point in paying for something you don’t need.

My point was just that the market sometimes can be difficult to please, and your new wheel that you just brought into the market can easily end up being a flop.

In the market segment that you have placed your new model to compete in, it has to steal buyers from other established brands, and that is no easy task. In addition, there are unknown entities that will go out of their way to spread  FUD to smear your new and shiny model.

[Cerbera]

4 hours ago, Finn Bjerke said:

Those figures are quite old. We'll find it started rebounding in 2021, and is still rising now !

[slippyfeet]

To me, the appeal of an EUC has always been to travel efficiently without the added expenses of insurance and registration but the performance numbers the manufacturers have been pumping into these recently really flirt with the need to regulate them at a state-by-state legislative level. 
Here in the US it's apparent that these are mostly "extra" modes of transportation (essentially a hobby), while there's other place in the world where these are very viable "alternative" modes of transportation.  The size and cost of these new machines are very telling of which places are buying most of them.
Of course it's really up to the users to showcase how responsible or hooligan to look, but having that "weakest link" potential to mess everything up for others is a real thing.

Edited April 16, 2023 by slippyfeet

[RooEUC]

While I understand the sentiment behind the OP's post, I'm not sure it's all that logical.  And I find it a bit contradicting.  It stresses that we must compare apples to apples, but the bulk of the post justifies the high cost of EUCs by comparing EUCs to cars, bikes, drones, cameras, computers and golf clubs.  With respect, I'm not sure how "apples to apples" that turns out to be.

I don't think anyone needs to defend the cost of EUCs.  If someone is willing to spend five grand on one and they feel they get enough utility or joy from it that the spend is worth it to them, that's a success story.  

I do completely understand why some, though maybe few, are disappointed with the current EUC market.  When I bought my first EUC it was about $500, used, but in great order.  I then bought a Segway S1 new for $380CAD.  I also bought a MiniPro new for $599.  For a while small EUCs priced around, or under, $1000 were popular.  Portability was in.  Since then EUCs have been getting bigger and more expensive, to the point that larger, heavier, more expensive EUCs make up the majority of what's available.  And I love that there are these big machines out there for those who are into them.  What's unfortunate is that even on these more expensive EUCs, corners are cut and there is some shoddy workmanship in places - more so with certain companies.  In most cases a $2500 Gotway will not have nearly the same craftmanship and build quality as a $2500 camera, if you still want to use the camera gear comparison.   

The OP does not think one should compare an EUC to an entry level electric bike, but then compares EUCs to gaming computers and golf clubs.  Respectfully, I disagree.  If we are to assess the value of an EUC, I think it's fair to say "well, what else can I buy that will achieve a similar result, ie. act as a personal transporter that will carry me a similar distance using battery power and hopefully provide fun in the process.  And how much will that cost, compared to the EUC?"  I think electric bikes make even more sense as a comparison than golf clubs. 

I have a small folding electric bike that cost $399 CAD new.  It's much safer than an EUC, it does 30kph and 25km on a charge.  For an extra $100 the range can be extended to 50km per charge.  That's $500 CAD for a 50km bike that I have ridden for thousands of kilometers and have never had an issue with.  It uses far more material in its construction and has more parts, but it costs far less than any EUC.  An Mten4 has a tiny wheel, doesn't have great build quality, costs $1,500 CAD, and might cut out and permanently disable me at any moment.  It's small, but heavy, so the portability is not much better than having a 16 inch wheel as it's not like it can be carried in a backpack comfortably.  A V8F does about the same speed as the bike, goes about as far, but costs 3 times the price and again, may cut out and put me in hospital. 

I just think that the heart behind the post is great (basically EUCs are brilliant and worth every penny!), but the argument supporting it is basically "EUCing is not an expensive hobby, because cars, high end golf clubs, high end computers, high end photography gear and mid to higher end bikes are expensive too" is an argument that I don't think works logically.  When the alternative hobbies given are mostly other expensive hobbies, it's not really a very fair comparison, in my opinion.

I could say EUCing is an expensive hobby when compared to other hobbies like:

RC planes: $500 buys a radio, batteries charger and a nice mid-skill-level plane

Skateboarding: $100-200 and you are set

Gaming PC: Mine cost me $650 to build and runs Farcry 5 on Ultra

Kayaking: A $150 inflatable kayak will get you out on the lake enjoying the sunrise

Knitting: $30

Reading: Free

EUCs are going to be priced at whatever a sufficient number of people are willing to spend on them in order to be sufficiently profitable for their manufacturers.  I myself long for a change in direction back towards small, lightweight, portable EUCs.  I don't want to replace large EUCs, I just want to also have a better selection of small, affordable ones.  I think there are enough large EUCs to choose from on the market at the moment.  I like 14-16 inch wheels for my 2 hour weekend trips by the river, but I long for a really small EUC that can be carried in a backpack comfortably.  If the Gotway M5 was here I'd buy it in a blink, but it doesn't look like that's coming back. Companies used to be able to make more affordable EUCs.  Now they are all in the $1000-5000 range with only a couple being at the lower end of that.  I used to work in the electric longboard business and a similar thing has happened to that market.  $3,000 for a board is nothing out of the ordinary now.

 

I think in reality EUCing is neither a cheap nor an expensive hobby.  It's entirely subjective.  Jeff Bezos would say it's a cheap hobby.  A person living in a shanty town in Ethiopia would say it's a hobby only for the rich.

 

 

Edited April 16, 2023 by RooMiniPro

[Funky]

1 hour ago, RooMiniPro said:

While I understand the sentiment behind the OP's post, I'm not sure it's all that logical.  And I find it a bit contradicting.  It stresses that we must compare apples to apples, but the bulk of the post justifies the high cost of EUCs by comparing EUCs to cars, bikes, drones, cameras, computers and golf clubs.  With respect, I'm not sure how "apples to apples" that turns out to be.

I don't think anyone needs to defend the cost of EUCs.  If someone is willing to spend five grand on one and they feel they get enough utility or joy from it that the spend is worth it to them, that's a success story.  

I do completely understand why some, though maybe few, are disappointed with the current EUC market.  When I bought my first EUC it was about $500, used, but in great order.  I then bought a Segway S1 new for $380CAD.  I also bought a MiniPro new for $599.  For a while small EUCs priced around, or under, $1000 were popular.  Portability was in.  Since then EUCs have been getting bigger and more expensive, to the point that larger, heavier, more expensive EUCs make up the majority of what's available.  And I love that there are these big machines out there for those who are into them.  What's unfortunate is that even on these more expensive EUCs, corners are cut and there is some shoddy workmanship in places - more so with certain companies.  In most cases a $2500 Gotway will not have nearly the same craftmanship and build quality as a $2500 camera, if you still want to use the camera gear comparison.   

The OP does not think one should compare an EUC to an entry level electric bike, but then compares EUCs to gaming computers and golf clubs.  Respectfully, I disagree.  If we are to assess the value of an EUC, I think it's fair to say "well, what else can I buy that will achieve a similar result, ie. act as a personal transporter that will carry me a similar distance using battery power and hopefully provide fun in the process.  And how much will that cost, compared to the EUC?"  I think electric bikes make even more sense as a comparison than golf clubs. 

I have a small folding electric bike that cost $399 CAD new.  It's much safer than an EUC, it does 30kph and 25km on a charge.  For an extra $100 the range can be extended to 50km per charge.  That's $500 CAD for a 50km bike that I have ridden for thousands of kilometers and have never had an issue with.  It uses far more material in its construction and has more parts, but it costs far less than any EUC.  An Mten4 has a tiny wheel, doesn't have great build quality, costs $1,500 CAD, and might cut out and permanently disable me at any moment.  It's small, but heavy, so the portability is not much better than having a 16 inch wheel as it's not like it can be carried in a backpack comfortably.  A V8F does about the same speed as the bike, goes about as far, but costs 3 times the price and again, may cut out and put me in hospital. 

I just think that the heart behind the post is great (basically EUCs are brilliant and worth every penny!), but the argument supporting it is basically "EUCing is not an expensive hobby, because cars, high end golf clubs, high end computers, high end photography gear and mid to higher end bikes are expensive too" is an argument that I don't think works logically.  When the alternative hobbies given are mostly other expensive hobbies, it's not really a very fair comparison, in my opinion.

I could say EUCing is an expensive hobby when compared to other hobbies like:

RC planes: $500 buys a radio, batteries charger and a nice mid-skill-level plane

Skateboarding: $100-200 and you are set

Gaming PC: Mine cost me $650 to build and runs Farcry 5 on Ultra

Kayaking: A $150 inflatable kayak will get you out on the lake enjoying the sunrise

Knitting: $30

Reading: Free

EUCs are going to be priced at whatever a sufficient number of people are willing to spend on them in order to be sufficiently profitable for their manufacturers.  I myself long for a change in direction back towards small, lightweight, portable EUCs.  I don't want to replace large EUCs, I just want to also have a better selection of small, affordable ones.  I think there are enough large EUCs to choose from on the market at the moment.  I like 14-16 inch wheels for my 2 hour weekend trips by the river, but I long for a really small EUC that can be carried in a backpack comfortably.  If the Gotway M5 was here I'd buy it in a blink, but it doesn't look like that's coming back. Companies used to be able to make more affordable EUCs.  Now they are all in the $1000-5000 range with only a couple being at the lower end of that.  I used to work in the electric longboard business and a similar thing has happened to that market.  $3,000 for a board is nothing out of the ordinary now.

 

I think in reality EUCing is neither a cheap nor an expensive hobby.  It's entirely subjective.  Jeff Bezos would say it's a cheap hobby.  A person living in a shanty town in Ethiopia would say it's a hobby only for the rich.

 

 

Great words!

 

I can 100% agree about Gaming PC's as someone who has built 2 for their family. (And more or less doing years of research for his next personal build. I like this kind of content..) If one is using 1080p monitor - you can get pretty cheap system, that will run any game over 100fps.

I personally am upgrading to 1440p ~180hz monitor and to go with it a new system. To run that resolution/speed. Most expensive part will be graphics card. You need to spend at least 1000$ for that part alone. Compared to 1080p you need most about 500$. The more frames you want at bigger resolution. The more you need to spend. 1080p, 1440p, 4k. 1080p - pretty cheap system can be built. At 1440p you need to spend quit more.. And at 4k you only option is to buy something in 1500-2000$ for graphics card. If you want 100+fps. (Add rest of the components and its 1k$ vs 2.5k$ vs 3.5k$) Prices are matched for my own country.. As we have 21% tax on any item.

 

We have plenty big/fast EUC's to choose from. We need more low end EUC's now. (Yes - we got older models.. But they aren't that interesting to be honest.) Do you think seeing these new wheels, anyone would want to buy 4 years old wheel. With outdated looks and so on. (Even knowing there's nothing wrong with it. It does the same as new ones.) People simply like shiny new things. Not old things.. We need new EUC's in 1000$ ballpark. Did i like to spend 1850$ for my 18xl? NOT REALLY. Would i do it second time? Maybe.. IF i find a new wheel that i really like. Till this time i haven't really found one.

Edited April 16, 2023 by Funky

[Punxatawneyjoe]

I built a $4,000 computer last year and my v13 is much funner to ride.......

[Funky]

2 hours ago, Punxatawneyjoe said:

I built a $4,000 computer last year and my v13 is much funner to ride.......

Each their own. I sure enjoy my PC more. As i'm spending most of my time at it.  

Sure i enjoy going for 2hrs ride.. But i don't wanna do that everyday. (Not much to explore around here. Small town that are connected to other towns by highway/train) Could buy a ticket and ride next town and explore it. But at the end of day it's the same everywhere. Doh i do enjoy going true forest dirt/grassy pathways.

I literally can explore all my surroundings with my 1554Wh wheel. 65km range.  

Edited April 16, 2023 by Funky

[Punxatawneyjoe]

44 minutes ago, Funky said:

Each their own. I sure enjoy my PC more.

It's just that i look foolish riding it in the living room and that's not what it's for.

46 minutes ago, Funky said:

Doh i do enjoy going true forest dirt/grassy pathways.

I enjoy exploring trails myself.

 

53 minutes ago, Funky said:

But at the end of day it's the same everywhere

was looking at Latvia on the map, looks like a ton of different terrain, lots of farmland but some city areas as well. Huge river that runs through. Looks like a nice place to live.

[bpong]

On 4/14/2023 at 5:21 PM, Hellkitten said:

Try buying one in Canada……..

Damn right.... although you cant beat the medical attention after a bad fall...

[RooEUC]

Latvia is a beautiful country.  The architecture is highly interesting and the people are slim and healthy.  I would love to explore Riga on an EUC.

[bpong]

this is soooooooooooooooo simple.

you like it, ... tried it and learned to ride it well, ... and now you have to have one.  there is no need to justify any thing to yourself other than which model best suits your riding style and riding needs...  are the eucs pricing becoming high ?!?!?!?

try buying groceries for a week and let me know if you think inflation really affecting the costs of electronic devices... euc prices are a moot point compared to actual prices on necessities.

[RooEUC]

2 minutes ago, bpong said:

Damn right.... although you cant beat the medical attention after a bad fall...

I find the selection and price of EUCs in Canada to be a bit disappointing too.  My experience of the medical system has been terrible over the past 7 or 8 years.  I have not yet met one doctor who was good at their job.  Some of the worst medical advice and harm I've received has been from doctors.  However, at least emergency care is publicly funded, which I appreciate, despite the care available often being poor.

[bpong]

2 minutes ago, RooMiniPro said:

I find the selection and price of EUCs in Canada to be a bit disappointing too.  My experience of the medical system has been terrible over the past 7 or 8 years.  I have not yet met one doctor who was good at their job.  Some of the worst medical advice and harm I've received has been from doctors.  However, at least emergency care is publicly funded, which I appreciate, despite the care available often being poor.

hmmmm, i cant say the same here.

for the selection of eucs and pricing, i agree somewhat but it really comes down to what you can afford.

as for my experience with the medical system,  i cannot complain.  i would however be abit careful with what a general practitioner would diagnose and recommend, but i do find the specialists are pretty much on their game.   emergency care is good IMO, and since the emergency state during COVID taxed their resources heavily,  i do believe that experience has helped with making emergency services that much better.  it could be worse if we had to pay for each visit;  it will be worse if medical care is only for the rich and powerful;  and it will just be plain shit if we had no medical services at all, ... which does exist in more countries than you think.

be happy, be careful riding, stay out of the hospital, and stay vertical...

 

[Scubadragonsan]

The globe is pretty big. Let the next entrepreneur step up to the plate, manufacture and sell EUCs at a cheaper price. Any take? In a free market or not a free market, a price is what you are wiling to pay--offer and acceptance. I think private jet should come down in price too so I can fly one. It's not coming down, it is not my necessity...so I just have to make more money to realize my dream. Ocean Kayaks, scuba diving gear, diamonds, perfume, gucci bags...etc. are in my opinion all over priced. You want it, you have to work for it. It is what it is. Again, the next entrepreneur needs to step up to the plate! It's not going to happen in the US, labor cost too high; it's not going to happen in India, lack of expertise and logistics; it is not going to happen in Vietnam, lack of skill and logistics.... Which country has it together and can mass produce them? Only China now! Maybe we should examine the question: Where or who can mass produce them if it is not China?

[OldFartRides]

I thought maybe Japan, or S. Korea, but apparently not. Nothing after the Rockwell gt ? Right ?

[slippyfeet]

39 minutes ago, Scubadragonsan said:

I think private jet should come down in price too so I can fly one.

Human size drones are a real thing, and honestly not that far away from now.
That's next 

[bpong]

1 minute ago, slippyfeet said:

Human size drones are a real thing, and honestly not that far away from now.
That's next 

i have watched a few vids of these human drone thingees, and i pity the pilot who gets caught in one of the motor-propeller units.  these things can fly, but only for a few mins which make them more of a curiousity rather than a practical application.  for sure un-manned drones (UAVs) will continue to be heavily used by the military and law enforcement,  and their performance will still out shine any human piloted drones for the time being...  until they design a battery technology that is even lighter than the current batteries and offer more power per weight.  then human piloted drones may become a practical design...

[KiwiMark]

Here in New Zealand it cost me ~NZ$5,500 to purchase my Sherman S from China.

My e-MTB bought from a company in NZ cost me ~NZ$8.500, it has less than half the battery in terms of energy storage, but it has twice the number of wheels. Overall I think the Sherman S is actually better value, even though I do think my e-MTB is pretty good.

My motorcycle cost me around NZ$22,500 and I then spend more on stuff for it (pannier rack & panniers, top box, crash guards, Rox risers, aftermarket pedals, etc) than what my Sherman S cost.

I have sold my car, but when I bought it as a 2-year-old Japanese import I paid NZ$21k.

I spent NZ$130k to by my 1994 34' Winnebago Vectra and then spent well over NZ$15k on solar panels, batteries and other stuff.

Overall the Sherman S, although not cheap, was not an enormous expense. Of course there are differences in the money spent here and somewhere like the USA, over and above the exchange rate. It might be more helpful to consider what the Sherman S cost me in terms of my earnings? My Sherman S cost me ~6 weeks pay, my expenses are fairly low - lets call it 2 months savings. Is 2 months worth of savings a massive amount to spend? Personally, I think it was totally worth it.

[bpong]

4 minutes ago, KiwiMark said:

Here in New Zealand it cost me ~NZ$5,500 to purchase my Sherman S from China.

My e-MTB bought from a company in NZ cost me ~NZ$8.500, it has less than half the battery in terms of energy storage, but it has twice the number of wheels. Overall I think the Sherman S is actually better value, even though I do think my e-MTB is pretty good.

My motorcycle cost me around NZ$22,500 and I then spend more on stuff for it (pannier rack & panniers, top box, crash guards, Rox risers, aftermarket pedals, etc) than what my Sherman S cost.

I have sold my car, but when I bought it as a 2-year-old Japanese import I paid NZ$21k.

I spent NZ$130k to by my 1994 34' Winnebago Vectra and then spent well over NZ$15k on solar panels, batteries and other stuff.

Overall the Sherman S, although not cheap, was not an enormous expense. Of course there are differences in the money spent here and somewhere like the USA, over and above the exchange rate. It might be more helpful to consider what the Sherman S cost me in terms of my earnings? My Sherman S cost me ~6 weeks pay, my expenses are fairly low - lets call it 2 months savings. Is 2 months worth of savings a massive amount to spend? Personally, I think it was totally worth it.

at todays exchange, 5500$Cad for a shermanS.  for your NZ$ pricing to cad its about 4500$ !!! you are paying less for a shermanS than what i would pay in canada...damn...