Modern EUC prices are getting out of hand?

[0000]

On 4/16/2023 at 6:42 AM, techyiam said:

Very recent trend did show a slight increase, but it certainly wasn't what we saw in the early years.

/chart

Kind of an anecdotal tangent, but I don't much like those lithium-ion battery price charts as I have found them to have little to no correlation to retail battery 18650/21700 cell prices over the years.

For example, I purchased and built a pack of 160 18650 Samsung 25Rs back in 2015 for ~3.6 $USD/cell shipped after much bargain hunting. Today, the price is $3.65/cell for 160 at a good discount retailer before shipping. So using the above chart trend figures: 2015 = 282 $/kWh vs 2022 = 120 $/kWh, theoretically a 25R which is still sold today should be somewhere in the ball park of $1.5/cell with a 57% cost reduction if these apparent battery production efficiencies were actually benefitting and reflected in the price of bulk individual battery sales. ^{Muh cost reductions... right...}

I realize they're talking about batteries available to OEMs who are sucking in vast quantities of these suckers for large footprint EVs, but I would really question how legitimate these kinds of analyses are since the savings haven't been, IMO, observable much in customer-facing bulk lithium-ion battery sales since I started paying attention to this industry ~8 years ago. Honestly, that aside, it's also hard to say anything concrete about price discovery and accounting given the state of monetary stability in general today so I'd put little stock in these kinds of pretty charts from that POV too.

Without doing my homework, it's possible that the need to generate support and evidence in the eyes of the public for the politically-driven green transition (thinking on EV subsidies, recent emission rule changes, and announced bans of conventional ICE transportion products) in the transportation industry at large outweighs the need to be academically rigorous or strictly ethical in their accounting and may be a factor in this kind of reporting.

Besides, getting back to the point of the thread, value is a subjective measure and being price sensitive tends to be linked heavily to one's accumulated savings or debt and present income. Anecdotally, I can say is that I got a hell of a lot of subjective value from my $2050 zero sales tax wheel . You definitely don't have to spring for the latest and greatest wheel to get a lot of bang for the buck.

[KiwiMark]

3 hours ago, bpong said:

at todays exchange, 5500$Cad for a shermanS.  for your NZ$ pricing to cad its about 4500$ !!! you are paying less for a shermanS than what i would pay in canada...damn...

Well, I did take a risk to get that price, hoping that any issues with batch 1 would cost less to rectify than what I was saving by pre-ordering and getting an 11/11 discount of 20% from the AliExpress seller. If I hesitated any longer I would have missed out on this very limited deal. That 20% off discount is what pushed me to hit the buy button and finally get my first suspension wheel.

[MetricUSA]

I am done purchasing an EUCs the next vehicle is going to be a recumbent bike for that amount of money... Still ridiculous high.... 

[Murdomeek]

6 hours ago, MetricUSA said:

recumbent bike for that amount of money

Are they electric? How many wh battery do you get compared to a similar priced EUC?

[MetricUSA]

Ha I don't know if I go that route... I can electricify my mtb for about $600 w/ middrive and still debating about that... 

[ride INMOTION]

On 4/15/2023 at 3:49 PM, Aztek said:

They self regulate, provided there are options on the market. In this line of thinking, the right price is the highest, people are willing to pay.

With EUCs, problem is, one gets crappy Chinese quality for the money. And  ridiculous support. Absent information. And zero safety. 

All this due to no market alternatives. All EUCs are Chinese made  of the similar "quality".  And the idea of quality of these people is rather careless.

That's all there is.

yes all EUCs are made by 4-5 Chinese factories ,mainly in Shenzhen ,Dongguan,Guangzhou.

what you said are facts. the Chinese factories need to improve their quality management,customer service etc. some brands like DJI do these better

[ride INMOTION]

On 4/16/2023 at 9:13 AM, techyiam said:

Lithium battery cells are manufactured in huge volume now. So the prices have come down. But this wasn't always the case. Lithium battery cells used to be super expensive. 

The rest of an electric wheel: chassis, controller, BMS's, suspension., etc., basically the wheel minus the battery cells, and tire, are primarily custom part produced in small niche batches. 

Bob Yan was saying it is really a headache to source quality parts in low volume at affordable prices. And he says this applies to all his competitors as well. And this is happening in China. I can't imagine how anyone else is going to do better in the US.

Being able to manufacture competitively priced electric wheels is already a monumental challenge. Then an equally difficult task would be to be able to sell them in large enough quantities.

Let say you managed to produce a batch. Are your wheels going to ride and perform competitively. And inevitably, there will be riders who will go on Red Bull Rampage like rides, and then go online complaining that they were short changed because their wheels didn't hold up, lack torque, pedal dipped, and etc. Some would even drop them in a pond and complained that the wheel was poorly made since the wheel wouldn't work anymore, and wished they had bought an Inmotion wheel instead. 

yes right,there are nearly 200 pieces of parts assembled in the EUC machine. the supply chain management is in high pressure .many parts are customized made,but the quantity is small , so the cost is high.

it is impossible to make this machine in USA.

it may be possible to make in Italy,but sells at 10000+ USD

[ride INMOTION]

On 4/17/2023 at 12:18 AM, RooMiniPro said:

While I understand the sentiment behind the OP's post, I'm not sure it's all that logical.  And I find it a bit contradicting.  It stresses that we must compare apples to apples, but the bulk of the post justifies the high cost of EUCs by comparing EUCs to cars, bikes, drones, cameras, computers and golf clubs.  With respect, I'm not sure how "apples to apples" that turns out to be.

I don't think anyone needs to defend the cost of EUCs.  If someone is willing to spend five grand on one and they feel they get enough utility or joy from it that the spend is worth it to them, that's a success story.  

I do completely understand why some, though maybe few, are disappointed with the current EUC market.  When I bought my first EUC it was about $500, used, but in great order.  I then bought a Segway S1 new for $380CAD.  I also bought a MiniPro new for $599.  For a while small EUCs priced around, or under, $1000 were popular.  Portability was in.  Since then EUCs have been getting bigger and more expensive, to the point that larger, heavier, more expensive EUCs make up the majority of what's available.  And I love that there are these big machines out there for those who are into them.  What's unfortunate is that even on these more expensive EUCs, corners are cut and there is some shoddy workmanship in places - more so with certain companies.  In most cases a $2500 Gotway will not have nearly the same craftmanship and build quality as a $2500 camera, if you still want to use the camera gear comparison.   

The OP does not think one should compare an EUC to an entry level electric bike, but then compares EUCs to gaming computers and golf clubs.  Respectfully, I disagree.  If we are to assess the value of an EUC, I think it's fair to say "well, what else can I buy that will achieve a similar result, ie. act as a personal transporter that will carry me a similar distance using battery power and hopefully provide fun in the process.  And how much will that cost, compared to the EUC?"  I think electric bikes make even more sense as a comparison than golf clubs. 

I have a small folding electric bike that cost $399 CAD new.  It's much safer than an EUC, it does 30kph and 25km on a charge.  For an extra $100 the range can be extended to 50km per charge.  That's $500 CAD for a 50km bike that I have ridden for thousands of kilometers and have never had an issue with.  It uses far more material in its construction and has more parts, but it costs far less than any EUC.  An Mten4 has a tiny wheel, doesn't have great build quality, costs $1,500 CAD, and might cut out and permanently disable me at any moment.  It's small, but heavy, so the portability is not much better than having a 16 inch wheel as it's not like it can be carried in a backpack comfortably.  A V8F does about the same speed as the bike, goes about as far, but costs 3 times the price and again, may cut out and put me in hospital. 

I just think that the heart behind the post is great (basically EUCs are brilliant and worth every penny!), but the argument supporting it is basically "EUCing is not an expensive hobby, because cars, high end golf clubs, high end computers, high end photography gear and mid to higher end bikes are expensive too" is an argument that I don't think works logically.  When the alternative hobbies given are mostly other expensive hobbies, it's not really a very fair comparison, in my opinion.

I could say EUCing is an expensive hobby when compared to other hobbies like:

RC planes: $500 buys a radio, batteries charger and a nice mid-skill-level plane

Skateboarding: $100-200 and you are set

Gaming PC: Mine cost me $650 to build and runs Farcry 5 on Ultra

Kayaking: A $150 inflatable kayak will get you out on the lake enjoying the sunrise

Knitting: $30

Reading: Free

EUCs are going to be priced at whatever a sufficient number of people are willing to spend on them in order to be sufficiently profitable for their manufacturers.  I myself long for a change in direction back towards small, lightweight, portable EUCs.  I don't want to replace large EUCs, I just want to also have a better selection of small, affordable ones.  I think there are enough large EUCs to choose from on the market at the moment.  I like 14-16 inch wheels for my 2 hour weekend trips by the river, but I long for a really small EUC that can be carried in a backpack comfortably.  If the Gotway M5 was here I'd buy it in a blink, but it doesn't look like that's coming back. Companies used to be able to make more affordable EUCs.  Now they are all in the $1000-5000 range with only a couple being at the lower end of that.  I used to work in the electric longboard business and a similar thing has happened to that market.  $3,000 for a board is nothing out of the ordinary now.

 

I think in reality EUCing is neither a cheap nor an expensive hobby.  It's entirely subjective.  Jeff Bezos would say it's a cheap hobby.  A person living in a shanty town in Ethiopia would say it's a hobby only for the rich.

 

 

yes EUC  retail price $1000-5000 may be reasonable .

5000 is the highest end , for super players.

1000 is the bottom line ,for manufacturing cost and safety .below 1000,there is not much profit for dealers and manufacturers .

[slippyfeet]

If R&D is an expense that your boss does not want to currently invest time into in favor of profit margin, I would honestly suggest bumping the 14S/16S line up to 84V and redesign the chassis with more premium materials (alloy structure + nylon shell) and add a kickstand.  Source better stronger axles, rims and bearings. With utilizing that proven drive system I feel it could be produced quickly and reliably giving us something to consider in the market while you work to modernize the 16X/18XL line. Not to mention, I'm a fan of the Lenovo port.

Begode is showing that the 84V system in the 11-15" tire size is perfectly capable and accessible enough for beginners and enthusiasts who just want the casual/ quick errand wheel.  The A2 design isn't my taste, I rather have a symmetric box like the Original Sherman and Commander Mini.

@Kingsong Customer Support

Edited July 9, 2023 by slippyfeet

[ride INMOTION]

On 7/9/2023 at 8:21 AM, slippyfeet said:

If R&D is an expense that your boss does not want to currently invest time into in favor of profit margin, I would honestly suggest bumping the 14S/16S line up to 84V and redesign the chassis with more premium materials (alloy structure + nylon shell) and add a kickstand.  Source better stronger axles, rims and bearings. With utilizing that proven drive system I feel it could be produced quickly and reliably giving us something to consider in the market while you work to modernize the 16X/18XL line. Not to mention, I'm a fan of the Lenovo port.

Begode is showing that the 84V system in the 11-15" tire size is perfectly capable and accessible enough for beginners and enthusiasts who just want the casual/ quick errand wheel.  The A2 design isn't my taste, I rather have a symmetric box like the Original Sherman and Commander Mini.

@Kingsong Customer Support

thanks for your suggestions for us to redesign 14S/16S line,

some friends also like 14S/16S line ,and said they are suitable for EU cities commuting, but the look is outdated.

truly the two models need to be upgraded now.

thank you !