Veteran Patton 16" 126v 2220wh

[Rollin-on-1]

2 hours ago, Todd Fahrner said:

I earlier reported "defective" light button. Turns out it requires a short stabby poke, not a press and hold. eWheels said same with Sherman S. I was overwhelmed and overcaffeinated when I first received the wheel. The caffeine (I rarely have much, hypersensitive) was exacerbating my irritation at the loudness of the beeps. 95db is still ridiculous but no longer as startling as day one. Also after a night of good sleep the whole wheel feels less intimidating, and I was able to take it a couple miles peaking over 25mph (um no gear cuz dumb) without fear like the first day. Still not able to brake hard: need more time. Hopped some curbs and aimed for potholes to note the suspension's superiority over V11. Also getting the knack of walking it up/down stairs without spinout to spare my back. I love being in this part of the learning curve: rapid neuromuscular rewiring happening as I sleep, no real effort required, just repeat exposure to new stimuli and let subconscious adaptive processes do their thing.

Still badly needs padding/pads (incoming), and I ordered that switch (h/t @jimjam.nyc) to disable the beeps except when I'm planning to explore limits; hope I don't forget to turn it on. 

Am I right that on iOS, DarknessBot is my only app choice? It connects, but minimal options. Like if there were a hypothetical firmware update, do I have options on iOS?

I don't have iOS, so I haven't verified this, but I think I remember the EUC World had finally rolled out for iOS as well.  Someone else will need to verify that though.  Patton is supposed to be in the next update, but I forget when.  At work now, or I'd look it up.

[jimjam.nyc]

3 hours ago, Todd Fahrner said:

Still badly needs padding/pads (incoming), and I ordered that switch (h/t @jimjam.nyc) to disable the beeps except when I'm planning to explore limits; hope I don't forget to turn it on.

Setup your tilt back just in case. The one flaw i saw with using a switch like this was forgetting to turn it on. The Patton has PWM tilt back, so hopefully it should still be pretty safe if you miss or forget the alarm

[OliG]

3 hours ago, Todd Fahrner said:

IAm I right that on iOS, DarknessBot is my only app choice? It connects, but minimal options. Like if there were a hypothetical firmware update, do I have options on iOS?

Yes you are right, currently DarknessBot is the only option on iOS. @Seba from Eucworld is working on an iOS app but it’s not yet available. As with previous wheels from leaperkim, options you can manage in the app are minimal. But once you know how to manage it on the wheel directly it’s not a real issue. Never miss that option with the Sherman OG I used during 3 years. 

[Rollin-on-1]

Initial ride - first impressions:

Sunday was a beautiful day here and my Patton was supposed to arrive between 9:40am and 1:40pm - and 2 days early no less. Unfortunately, that didn't pan out.  The weather forcast for today and tomorrow call for sever thunderstorms.  Needless to say, I was a bit grumpy with F'edEx.

This morning, my Patton arrived while I was at work. Sever thunderstorms were supposed to start at 7pm. It was almost 8pm by the time we got the kids in bed.  I opened up the box and pulled everything out.  After unplugging the headlight to silence the beeper, I put it on the charger to get it out of transport mode and then ran through the settings.  A quick look out the window told me I may have a chance to rip up and down my neighborhood street a couple of times before the deluge begins.  

Stepping on for the first time, I found the sag to be pretty close to ideal.  For reference, my ride weight tonight was ~180 - 181lbs.  I set the foot blocks where I thought I wanted them and pushed off.  I didn't bother to check anything else, like tire pressure or suspension settings.  I had a limited window of opportunity, so I took it.  It took me a few hundred yards to feel like I had my feet positioned where I wanted them.   But, I quickly felt comfortable on the Patton.  Out of the box, I wanted the compression to be a couple clicks firmer and the rebound a couple of clicks slower, but it was kind of fun being a little bouncy.

I ride with a staggered, duck stance.  By that, I mean the one foot is about an inch foward of the other and my toes are out a bit and my heels make contact with the wheel.  With this stance, I found myself wanting the toe block to be about an inch wider, but I also didn't have issues with pressure on my inner calves.

Acceleration was good, but without pads, I didn't find it quite as zippy as my 16x.  This may change once I get pads on and I feel a little more connected with the wheel.  Agility is nice, but it doesn't have the flickability that I love in my 16x. Again, this may improve as I get more time on the wheel and get pads set up like I want them, but I think the extra weight adds stability at the expense of flicability.  It think stiffer suspension may help with the flickability too.

I found the H626 to ride well and it was very controllable.  The Patton wanted to fall into turns more than I expected with the H626.  The H666 that I have on my 16x has a strong gyro effect and I expected similar or stronger with the H626.  I'm not sure if it is the higher center of gravity with the Patton, a different ride feel of the H626, or a bit of both, but I missed the gyro effect a little.  I guess time will tell if I really like it or want to swap it for something else.  I think it's a keeper though. 

If this sounds like a lot of observations for such a short ride before a storm, that is because the EUC gods felt pity on me and parted the storm.  I was able to get in a 10 mile ride with a nice balance of 25 mph neighborhood streets, a couple of parking lot faux race courses, some slow tight turns, and a short section of rooted up paved trail.  The Patton really shined on the rooted up trail. On my 16x, that trail beats the crap out of me and the wheel.  On the Patton, I was cruising down it at 25mph like it was nothing.

Curb drops...what curb?  I did a couple and they were SMOOOV!  Bonks...what bonk?  It just levitated up.  I even did a little seated riding tonight which went better than expected.  The landing zone is a bit narrow, but it wasn't uncomfortable.  Granted it was only for a short while.

After about 6 miles or so, I felt very acclimated to the Patton.  I found myself naturally easing off at 30 - 31 mph anticipating the tiltback I'm accustomed toon my 16x  Once I let go and just enjoyed the ride, I was pretty consistenly riding at ~35 mph without trying to push it. 

I'm going to ride it for a while longer with the stock suspension settings, but then I'll probably make some tweaks.  I did set the pedal angle adjustment to -2 at around the 5 mile mark. This is what I have my 16x set to and it immediately felt better when I set the Patton to -2 as well.

Of all the wheels that I have tested over the past few years, this is the first wheel that has felt right for me and worthy of replacing my trusty 16x.  The S22 was close...too bad KS fumbled that one for so long.

Anyway, thanks for reading this far.  Hopefully it was informative.  I'm looking forward to clocking more miles!

Is there anything you would like for me to check and report back on?  Let me know!

 

 

Edited June 27, 2023 by Rollin-on-1

[Rollin-on-1]

Can someone with 3d design skills make nylon spacers for the Patton toe blocks - pretty please?  IMHO, they need to be shifted outward at least 1/2".  I think I'd like it an inch wider, but I'm not sure the stock hardware can accommodate that.

[fbhb]

4 hours ago, Rollin-on-1 said:

Can someone with 3d design skills make nylon spacers for the Patton toe blocks - pretty please?

Calling @Rawnei! 

[stizl]

 

I received my wheel yesterday, the 66lb spring version with the knobby. These wheels really have a quality feel, even compared to my V12!

For measuring and setting the static sag, since the Patton’s shock sliders are not exposed, you cannot use a zip tie or O-ring around the inner slider like is often done on motorcycle or bicycle forks or shocks.  A quick and crude sag measurement set up I came up with simply used a cable tie (as a pointer), some masking tape, and a sharpie. It only took about five minutes to set up. I first taped the cable tie horizontally to the front fender, then marked and taped a mini ruler onto the front of the battery box as shown in the photos below.  Next time I'll probably make a similar setup with a bit more precision, but this was fast and more than sufficient to get in the ballpark within a few mm. 

At 175 pounds, my static sag at the out-of-box setting (with zero preload) was about 25mm, or 31% (25mm/80mm), which is a bit much for most applications.  I then added about three lines (grooves in the preload adjusters) of preload in order to get 20 mm of sag, or 25%.  With the range of adjustment of the preload adjusters, it looks like a 175lb (geared) rider on the 66lb springs would be able to set between ~15% and ~30% of static sag, which is about the perfect range to have, as luck would have it for me, ha.

After first bouncing on the wheel in my garage, I also found the baseline rebound and compression settings to be a bit underdamped.  For my first ride I added four clicks of compression and two clicks of rebound, and I found this to be a good place to start.  After a 6 mile ride I backed the compression back off two clicks which seem to be a sweet spot for me for keeping the plush ride and maintaining a well damped feel.  After some heavier trail riding later today, I'll reevaluate. 

Regarding the available spring rates, it seems to me that spring rate selection should be based almost purely on achieving ideal static sag.   The force difference between 58lb and 66lb springs is only about 14%, which will have little affect on absorbing big hits/drops.  If you look at existing available mountain bike and motorcycle fork and shock springs, the typical range available has the heaviest spring option being 150% to 200% of the lightest available spring.

If you (sag) compress too much of your suspension travel just by standing on the wheel, then obviously you won’t have that travel left to absorb speed bumps, potholes, etc. 30% sag is about the most you'll see recommended for any street/moto shock application.  When doing drops to flat however, your suspension will extend fully before you land (unless you have your rebound damping set too high) and therefore the damping is doing most of the work keeping you from bottoming out, not the incrementally stronger spring. 

Regarding pads, I had ordered the pads originally designed for the Patton on AliExpress for $99.  Both the fit and the quality is great,.  The Velcro is pre-cut for the bolt holes and the adhesive on the back of the Velcro is quite thick and grippy. The Velcro itself also isn’t overly strong, so it’s easy to adjust the pads without ripping off the Velcro.  From initial impressions these pads are well shaped and seem to have just the right amount of adjustment on the acceleration pad to accommodate a range of thicknesses  of kneepads or even none at all (if you’re one of those people).  I would recommend these pads for most any larger wheel, especially for the price and short lead times.

Edited June 27, 2023 by stizl

[Rollin-on-1]

33 minutes ago, stizl said:

 

I received my wheel yesterday, the 66lb spring version with the knobby. These wheels really have a quality feel, even compared to my V12!

For measuring and setting the static sag, since the Patton’s shock sliders are not exposed, you cannot use a zip tie or O-ring around the inner slider like is often done on motorcycle or bicycle forks or shocks.  A quick and crude sag measurement set up I came up with simply used a cable tie (as a pointer), some masking tape, and a sharpie. It only took about five minutes to set up. I first taped the cable tie horizontally to the front fender, then marked and taped a mini ruler onto the front of the battery box as shown in the photos below.  Next time I'll probably make a similar setup with a bit more precision, but this was fast and more than sufficient to get in the ballpark within a few mm. 

At 175 pounds, my static sag at the out-of-box setting (with zero preload) was about 25mm, or 31% (25mm/80mm), which is a bit much for most applications.  I then added about three lines (grooves in the preload adjusters) of preload in order to get 20 mm of sag, or 25%.  With the range of adjustment of the preload adjusters, it looks like a 175lb (geared) rider would be able to set between ~15% and ~30% of static sag, which is about the perfect range to have, as luck would have it for me, ha.

After first bouncing on the wheel in my garage, I also found the baseline rebound and compression settings to be a bit underdamped.  For my first ride I added four clicks of compression and two clicks of rebound, and I found this to be a good place to start.  After a 6 mile ride I backed the compression back off two clicks which seem to be a sweet spot for me for keeping the plush ride and maintaining a well damped feel.  After some heavier trail riding later today, I'll reevaluate. 

Regarding the available spring rates, it seems to me that spring rate selection should be based almost purely on achieving ideal static sag.   The force difference between 58lb and 66lb springs is only about 14%, which will have little affect on absorbing big hits/drops.  If you look at existing available mountain bike and motorcycle fork and shock springs, the typical range available has the heaviest spring option being 150% to 200% of the lightest available spring.

If you (sag) compress too much of your suspension travel just by standing on the wheel, then obviously you won’t have that travel left to absorb speed bumps, potholes, etc. 30% sag is about the most you'll see recommended for any street/moto shock application.  When doing drops to flat however, your suspension will extend fully before you land (unless you have your rebound damping set too high) and therefore the damping is doing most of the work keeping you from bottoming out, not the incrementally stronger spring. 

Regarding pads, I had ordered the pads originally designed for the Patton on AliExpress for $99.  Both the fit and the quality is great,.  The Velcro is pre-cut for the bolt holes and the adhesive on the back of the Velcro is quite thick and grippy. The Velcro itself also isn’t overly strong, so it’s easy to adjust the pads without ripping off the Velcro.  From initial impressions these pads are well shaped and seem to have just the right amount of adjustment on the acceleration pad to accommodate a range of thicknesses  of kneepads or even none at all (if you’re one of those people).  I would recommend these pads for most any larger wheel, especially for the price and short lead times.

Thank you for documenting your sag-o-meter.  I was planning to do something very similar today.  I was going to use a ruler, but seeing how well the tape worked for you, I'll probably just do that.  At 180 lb ride weight, I thought the stock setting was good, but seeing your results, I'm guessing I'll be increasing the pre-load just a bit.  Seat of the pants felt like about an inch of sag.  We'll see what the numbers say and go from there.  Cheers!

[stizl]

46 minutes ago, Rollin-on-1 said:

Thank you for documenting your sag-o-meter.  I was planning to do something very similar today.  I was going to use a ruler, but seeing how well the tape worked for you, I'll probably just do that.  At 180 lb ride weight, I thought the stock setting was good, but seeing your results, I'm guessing I'll be increasing the pre-load just a bit.  Seat of the pants felt like about an inch of sag.  We'll see what the numbers say and go from there.  Cheers!

"Sag-O-Meter"...yes!

[Mrd777]

4 hours ago, Rollin-on-1 said:

Thank you for documenting your sag-o-meter.  I was planning to do something very similar today.  I was going to use a ruler, but seeing how well the tape worked for you, I'll probably just do that.  At 180 lb ride weight, I thought the stock setting was good, but seeing your results, I'm guessing I'll be increasing the pre-load just a bit.  Seat of the pants felt like about an inch of sag.  We'll see what the numbers say and go from there.  Cheers!

lets see some pics of your street tire, very curious of the look...

[Rollin-on-1]

1 hour ago, Mrd777 said:

lets see some pics of your street tire, very curious of the look...

 

[Planemo]

7 hours ago, stizl said:

For measuring and setting the static sag, since the Patton’s shock sliders are not exposed, you cannot use a zip tie or O-ring around the inner slider like is often done on motorcycle or bicycle forks or shocks.  A quick and crude sag measurement set up I came up with simply used a cable tie (as a pointer), some masking tape, and a sharpie. It only took about five minutes to set up. I first taped the cable tie horizontally to the front fender, then marked and taped a mini ruler onto the front of the battery box as shown in the photos below.  Next time I'll probably make a similar setup with a bit more precision, but this was fast and more than sufficient to get in the ballpark within a few mm. 

At 175 pounds, my static sag at the out-of-box setting (with zero preload) was about 25mm, or 31% (25mm/80mm), which is a bit much for most applications.  I then added about three lines (grooves in the preload adjusters) of preload in order to get 20 mm of sag, or 25%.  With the range of adjustment of the preload adjusters, it looks like a 175lb (geared) rider on the 66lb springs would be able to set between ~15% and ~30% of static sag, which is about the perfect range to have, as luck would have it for me, ha.

I love this, well done. You clearly understand how suspension works, that 'stiffness' isn't anything to do with preload, the McGuyver cable tie on the fender is brilliant and accurate and your sag understanding is bang on  

[stizl]

3 hours ago, Planemo said:

I love this, well done. You clearly understand how suspension works, that 'stiffness' isn't anything to do with preload, the McGuyver cable tie on the fender is brilliant and accurate and your sag understanding is bang on  

Thank You, sir!

[Rollin-on-1]

I trolleyed the kids around inside the house today.  The Patton is great for this!  The trolley is tall enough that I could push them around effortlessly.  They thoroughly enjoyed seated riding, weaving all around the house.  Good times!

[techyiam]

Can Patton owners who also have ridden the V12 comment on 30 mph+ speeds stability between the two? 

On the V12, did you find it more twitchy?

Did you find the Patton considerably more planted? 

For those who have ridden a S22/Pro, did you find the stability of the Patton close to the S22/Pro? 

[Mossi]

Just received my Patton. Set it up at the charger but when I turned it on it made this terrible sound. In reality it is a lot louder than in the video.

 

[Rawnei]

16 minutes ago, Mossi said:

Just received my Patton. Set it up at the charger but when I turned it on it made this terrible sound. In reality it is a lot louder than in the video.

 

Normal motor sound.

[Mossi]

I have never heared a motor sound even nearly as loud. I have seen two Pattons and none of them did this. You would hear it outsinde standing 20 Meters away. Not even the grunting sound on my 18XL is even half as loud.

Edited June 28, 2023 by Mossi

[Rawnei]

23 minutes ago, Mossi said:

I have never heared a motor sound even nearly as loud. I have seen two Pattons and none of them did this. You would hear it outsinde standing 20 Meters away. Not even the grunting sound on my 18XL is even half as loud.

Well from your video it sounds exactly like mine and others Sherman S.

[Al Alcatraz]

10 minutes ago, Mossi said:

I have never heared a motor sound even nearly as loud. I have seen two Pattons and none of them did this. You would hear it outsinde standing 20 Meters away. Not even the grunting sound on my 18XL is even half as loud.

It seems to be the the controller. Electromagnetic coils can emit such a sound. Nothing unusual here. Mine wheel does the same.

In German it's called Spulenfiepen.

 

[Mossi]

I don't mean that high pith noise, there is another sound. Maybe it is normal but the other two Pattons were quieter.

[techyiam]

28 minutes ago, Mossi said:

I have seen two Pattons and none of them did this.

+1.

The two Pattons that I rode didn't make this sound. Also, @Clem604 's Sherman-S didn't make this sound either, at least I didn't noticed it.

My V12 and Abrams are basically silent when stationary. When accelerating, the motors makes some sounds, but the motors sound refined and quiet. Stock Abrams  with early firmware makes a lot of noise. But the motor noise isn't this high pitched sound. Some people say it sounds like it is using a square wave controller. 

[OliG]

1 hour ago, Mossi said:

Just received my Patton. Set it up at the charger but when I turned it on it made this terrible sound. In reality it is a lot louder than in the video.

 

Same sound for me. I'm happy to see I'm not the only one.

900 km on the wheel with that noise since mid may and no issue. Hopefully the sound doesn't affect the ride quality.

 

It's not a bug, it's a feature : kettle sound probably requested by some English friends to remind them tea time 

[Rawnei]

The sound is only noticeable when wheel is idle and it's a quiet environment, it's nothing you notice outside when riding.

[Al Alcatraz]

6 minutes ago, techyiam said:

+1.

The two Pattons that I rode didn't make this sound. Also, @Clem604 's Sherman-S didn't make this sound either, at least I didn't noticed it.

My V12 and Abrams are basically silent when stationary. When accelerating, the motors makes some sounds, but the motors sound refined and quiet. Stock Abrams  with early firmware makes a lot of noise. But the motor noise isn't this high pitched sound. Some people say it sounds like it is using a square wave controller. 

You would only notice in a quiet room or for example inside an elevator. 
Fun fact: The sound changes slightly when turning on the headlight. At least in my Patton.