Personal Preferences for Protective Gear

[KiwiMark]

A little road rash will hurt, but will heal over a few weeks. Breaking a bone or much worse, a joint - very very not good!

My mesh jacket isn't overly hot with good ventilation and it provides armour over the chest, back & elbows - good to not break a rib or mess up your back or smack your elbow into the tarmac. Also good to have protection for head (brain injury = very bad), wrists & knees. Add some sturdy footwear and you have a lot of important parts of your body protected. Sure, you might scrape something not protected, but the more vulnerable and at risk bits should hopefully be OK.

My jacket is the Alpinestars Mesh Jacket, I have tested it a couple of times, but not at a high speed.

[Josiah]

The body armor is a bit tricky to put on though eh?

It’s not easy for me to zip up the mesh.  Maybe I could lose some of that extra padding Cerbera was talking about.  

Edited February 1, 2023 by Josiah

[KiwiMark]

52 minutes ago, Paul A said:

Armour is good.

Stupidity is not.

 

If someone else is happy to ride without protection then it is no skin off MY body. For those of us that prefer our skin intact and bones unbroken - there is gear to help with that. The hardest one to recover from would be a brain injury so if you have a useful brain, you should wear a helmet to keep it that way.

[litewave]

13 minutes ago, KiwiMark said:

A little road rash will hurt, but will heal over a few weeks. Breaking a bone or much worse, a joint - very very not good!

Indeed. There has been much discussion over the years on the forum, and the consensus is that existing safety gear does/can *not* (adequately) protect the humerus, shoulder, and collarbone. There are many riders who have posted about their real-life broken bones despite wearing all the gear (ATG). Full armor will protect you, but not make you unbreakable.

[KiwiMark]

14 minutes ago, litewave said:

Full armor will protect you, but not make you unbreakable.

Exactly this! Less chance of being hurt, not immune to damage. Damage likely to be reduced, not damage impossible to receive. You might die in an accident, but with good gear this is less likely. Reducing the chances of death or injury - a good thing, surely?

[Paul A]

31 minutes ago, litewave said:

shoulder, and collarbone

 

 

[GHOSTTE]

4 minutes ago, Paul A said:

 

 

Don't forget neck, I picked up a Leatt neck brace recently

[litewave]

46 minutes ago, GHOSTTE said:

Don't forget neck, I picked up a Leatt neck brace recently

Watch this video closely: it shows all the impact points that are dangerous to MC and EUC riders (foot, knee, wrist, elbow and finally shoulder). Granted, our faceplants don't happen or look the same, but the vulnerabilities are similar:

00:11 rider strikes ground with outstretched left leg/foot instinctively trying to land on his feet. Risk: fractured foot, ankle; knee and leg bones; and possibly the pelvis, IF safety gear does not adequately dissipate forces.

00:14 rider lands next on his right knee then his left. Right knee guard cup rotated out of position and right knee cap was likely impacted directly. Risk: fractured knee and leg bones; possibly the pelvis; maybe even the spine, IF safety gear does not adequately dissipate forces.

00:16 rider reaches with outstretched arms to break his fall. Left palm, wrist and forearm, followed instantly by the left and right elbows, directing the impact forces into the elbows, up the humeral bones into the shoulders vertically. This is how/why some riders break the upper arm (humerus) and shoulder (humeral head and socket). 

00:18 rider rotates torso and impacts hard on helmet and faceshield and left shoulder. His helmet most likely did an excellent job, and his suit probably had high-grade impact foam sewn in to protect from lateral impact.

The MC rider is a trained athlete, likely in the prime of his life, so he may not have required surgery. For the rest of us, we might not be so lucky.

Edited February 1, 2023 by litewave

[GHOSTTE]

1 minute ago, litewave said:

Watch this video closely: it shows all the impact points that are dangerous to MC and EUC riders (foot, knee, wrist, elbow and finally shoulder). Granted, our faceplants don't happen or look the same, but the vulnerabilities are similar:

00:11 rider strikes ground with outstretched left leg/foot instinctively trying to land on his feet. Risk: fractured foot, ankle; knee and leg bones; and possibly the pelvis, IF safety gear does not adequately dissipate forces.

00:14 rider lands next on his right knee then his left. Right knee guard cup rotated out of position and right knee cap was likely impacted directly. Risk: fractured knee and leg bones; possibly the pelvis; maybe even the spine, IF safety gear does not adequately dissipate forces.

00:16 rider reaches with outstretched arms to break his fall. Left palm, wrist and forearm, followed instantly by the left and right elbows, directing the impact forces directly into the elbows, up the humeral bones to the shoulders vertically. This is how/why some riders break the upper arm (humerus) and shoulder (humeral head and socket). 

00:18 rider rotates torso and impacts hard on helmet and faceshield and left shoulder. His helmet most likely did an excellent job, and his suit probably had high-grade impact foam sewn in to protect from horizontal impact.

The MC rider is a trained athlete, likely in the prime of his life, so he might not need surgery. For the rest of us, we might not be so lucky.

I've got Mobius knee braces+Mobius wrist guards, a Bell FIM-certified motorcycle helmet, Dainese elbow guards, Leatt body armor, Leatt neck guard, motorcycle CE-rated textile jacket+pants, and a few other things. I don't do anything crazy but I don't want to end up in the hospital or worse, dead

[Paul A]

15 minutes ago, litewave said:

rotated out of position

 

This is important.

Gear like Leatt have protective guards/pads in the correct position......but they can move out of position when tumbling, upon impact, sliding etc.

The mesh/material.....does not provide all over coverage.

There could be objects/debris that will impact on those areas.

The inner area of the elbow.....is at the end of a V shaped channel, formed by the upper and lower forearm.  A branch will be directed to this area, and snag/lacerate.

 

Motorcycle gear does not have partial coverage.

[litewave]

1 hour ago, KiwiMark said:

If someone else is happy to ride without protection then it is no skin off MY body. For those of us that prefer our skin intact and bones unbroken - there is gear to help with that. The hardest one to recover from would be a brain injury so if you have a useful brain, you should wear a helmet to keep it that way.

I respectfully disagree. If a rider crashes and loses skin and/or suffers injuries you can bet the local council in New Zealand will become aware of it. The local hospital and medical community will likely find out. It's the Kiwi-Kevin-Bacon rule: 2 degrees of separation.

So, that rider's lack of safety gear and poor choices could very well lead to laws restricting EUCs and possible fines/confiscation. It is a slippery slope, and we are all in this together. Discourage fellow riders from making bad decisions, as they affect all of us. We are a community and are all connected.

[Paul A]

5 minutes ago, litewave said:

Discourage fellow riders from making bad decisions, as they affect all of us.

 

https://www.pedestrian.tv/news/escooter-towed-brunswick-police/

October 3, 2022

Watch A Lonely E-Scooter Be Loaded Onto A Giant Tow Truck In The Name Of A Police Crackdown

Police are targeting e-scooter riders in response to an apparent rise in frequency of incidents.

The crackdown also comes after an e-scooter rider died last month when he lost control going over a speedbump.

He was not wearing a helmet and later died in hospital.

 

Victoria Police are cracking down hard on e-scooter riders and the first casualty of this blitz was an e-scooter in Brunswick that was seized, towed away on a giant truck and impounded this morning.

The e-scooter was the first to be impounded for 30 days under the Road Safety Act as part of an operation led by Fawkner Highway Patrol that began today.

 

 

 

[Paul A]

Serious injuries.

Bad publicity.

 

 

[Josiah]

Wow that’s terrible.  No matter how much gear you have it won’t help the pedestrian.  Speed limit there on the foot path is 10 kph. Do you think he was much over that speed?  Looks a bit slower from the second angle than the first.  
 

 

Edited February 2, 2023 by Josiah

[KiwiMark]

Wear the gear, but also slow the F down any time you are anywhere near pedestrians or where pedestrians might appear. e.g. If you are riding past shop frontages then it is definitely possible that a person may walk out of one of those shops, even 25kph is WAY too fast to be riding along there. Get it down around 10kph and you have more time to stop or dodge, even if you can't stop and hit someone - they aren't going to go flying with serious injuries if you had only been going 10kph.

My top speed so far on my Sherman S is 68kph, but that was on a road with no pedestrians anywhere near. If you want to ride fast then pick a sensible location to do it. And wear protective gear!

[KiwiMark]

1 hour ago, litewave said:

I respectfully disagree. If a rider crashes and loses skin and/or suffers injuries you can bet the local council in New Zealand will become aware of it. The local hospital and medical community will likely find out. It's the Kiwi-Kevin-Bacon rule: 2 degrees of separation.

Oh yeah, it is a bad thing. I was just being literal though. It is not literally MY skin being lost. So far we have very little regulation about gear, apart from having to wear a helmet on a bicycle. I wear a lot more gear than the law requires me to because I don't want to be killed or injured if something goes wrong.

[Paul A]

1 hour ago, Josiah said:

10 kph

 

E scooter rider was traveling approximately 3-4 mph (4.8 - 6.4 kph).

Same injuries could possibly also happen to a pedestrian hit by a scooter.

___________________________________________

 

'I Did Almost Die': Utahn Warns of Dangers of Electric Scooters Following Severe Accident

A Utah resident is warning others of the dangers of electric scooters after an accident sent them to the emergency room and cost them hundreds of thousands of dollars in medical bills.

 

 

[KiwiMark]

1 hour ago, Paul A said:

E scooter rider was traveling approximately 3-4 mph (4.8 - 6.4 kph).

Same injuries could possibly also happen to a pedestrian hit by a scooter.

Or if someone tripped while walking or to a pedestrian bumped into by a person walking the other way. My fast walking speed is 6 kph and a moderate jogging speed would be more like 10 kph. I've read of a person walking on a footpath that tripped and hit his head and died, so what do we want to do about such a possibility? My view is that when someone gets hurt while moving that slow, there is nothing that we can do about such incredibly bad luck, or at least nothing that makes any sense. It is such a totally different situation to the woman hit and badly injured while walking out of a salon, where the rider wouldn't have been much of a problem if he was riding at 10kph. I kinda think that even 15kph isn't too bad, but that rider was going a minimum of 25 kph.

[Paul A]

An EUC rider needs to slow to walking speed near areas with pedestrians.

To be able to react, stop, and not hit a person.

 

The small wheels of scooters make them incredibly hazardous for riders and others.

Negative public sentiments about scooters may transfer to all PEVs in general.

 

[Cerbera]

Yep, those scooters are gonna be the end of this hobby for all of us if we're unlucky.

But nobody is mentioning a crucial difference between EUCs and scooters here: what the rider's arms are doing.

I have, much to my chagrin, twice 'collided' (though that's really the wrong word for a tiny bump) with pedestrians at those low low speeds in my 8 years or so of riding, and in each of those incidents injury to either party has been entirely avoided by the 'bear hug'; the practice of spotting a collision is imminent, shouting the right warning, reaching out with the arms and holding the shoulders of the person you are about to unavoidably contact, which is not really a possibility with scooters. This is surprisingly effective provided the person you have to 'grab' doesn't go down with the additional weight, which is a possibility I imagine, but on both occasions I have managed to say things like 'Brace!' or 'Remain firm !' as we make contact, and all has been well, and the apologies can commence.

Unfortunately, nobody making laws for these things will be taking account of that difference either, so it's merely a datapoint that might help other EUCers avoid hurting someone in the event of an unavoidable collision, not that any of you need telling I imagine, because 'arms out' is the first natural inclination of most riders I would think, and in my case it was largely involuntary, and I was lucky it turned out to be exactly the best thing to do in both situations.

 

 

[Robse]

4 hours ago, Paul A said:

 

E scooter rider was traveling approximately 3-4 mph (4.8 - 6.4 kph).

Same injuries could possibly also happen to a pedestrian hit by a scooter.

___________________________________________

 

'I Did Almost Die': Utahn Warns of Dangers of Electric Scooters Following Severe Accident

A Utah resident is warning others of the dangers of electric scooters after an accident sent them to the emergency room and cost them hundreds of thousands of dollars in medical bills.

 

 

All those idiots who get hurt....badly hurt....because they are too stupid to use something as simple as a helmet, and at the same time ride a vehicle based on a narrow flat plate, two tiny wheels, and a vertical long stick with a "handle-not-bar".....

[Funky]

1 hour ago, Robse said:

All those idiots who get hurt....badly hurt....because they are too stupid to use something as simple as a helmet, and at the same time ride a vehicle based on a narrow flat plate, two tiny wheels, and a vertical long stick with a "handle-not-bar".....

Bro.. If i owned scooter i would not wear helmet ever. (Idiots who don't look where they are going - that is the problem.) I have not seen anyone in my country wearing a helmet while riding a scooter. Only EUC's. Especially the rental ones.. The user won't have a helmet ever.  

If you look where you are riding, you would NEVER crash a scooter. Because they don't have the danger of EUC's. If EUC stops working you automatically crash. That's why i'm wearing helmet - when i'm going for fun rides.

If i didn't have the problem of EUC suddenly stop working. I doubt i would wear a helmet. But that's mostly because where/how i ride.

 

Even when i'm riding to store/job, i choose to leave my helmet behind. Mostly because i ride very slow then and need to go ~3km distance. (2x slower than "fun" rides.) Also how slow one needs to be, to not put your hands in front while falling. Come on.. Stop daydreaming. 

Edited February 1, 2023 by Funky

[Cerbera]

1 hour ago, Funky said:

I have not seen anyone in my country wearing a helmet while riding a scooter.

Yep, nor me, over in the UK. Very occasionally I might see a kid riding one with a cycling helmet on.

1 hour ago, Funky said:

If you look where you are riding, you would NEVER crash a scooter.

I have seen enough videos where the handlebars twist out of riders' hands to dispute that statement !  Sometimes they can't see what de-platforms them, and no surprise there, with those silly little wheels . And of course there is no accounting for the unpredictable and surprise actions of phone-absorbed pedestrians, which accounts for a fair amount of low speed scooter crashes I see...

 

 

[Funky]

13 minutes ago, Cerbera said:

I have seen enough videos where the handlebars twist out of riders' hands to dispute that statement !  Sometimes they can't see what de-platforms them, and no surprise there, with those silly little wheels .

Again - mostly because they aren't looking where they are going. If rider sees a dip or a rock in front. They would not fall otherwise. In most cases a crash happens - because rider wasn't looking where he/she is going. Or wasn't prepared for "unseen" dip in road.

Same for my dad hes riding EUC without any gear at all.. Even no wrist guards. 5000km done in 1 year - zero damage. Doh has fallen some times. Mostly at beginning while learning.

I at least don't leave my home without wrist guards ever.  

Edited February 1, 2023 by Funky

[Robse]

35 minutes ago, Funky said:

Bro.. If i owned scooter i would not wear helmet ever. (Idiots who don't look where they are going - that is the problem.) I have not seen anyone in my country wearing a helmet while riding a scooter. Only EUC's. Especially the rental ones.. The user won't have a helmet ever.  

If you look where you are riding, you would NEVER crash a scooter. Because they don't have the danger of EUC's. If EUC stops working you automatically crash. That's why i'm wearing helmet - when i'm going for fun rides.

If i didn't have the problem of EUC suddenly stop working. I doubt i would wear a helmet. But that's mostly because where/how i ride.

 

Even when i'm riding to store/job, i choose to leave my helmet behind. Mostly because i ride very slow then and need to go ~3km distance. (2x slower than "fun" rides.) Also how slow one needs to be, to not put your hands in front while falling. Come on.. Stop daydreaming. 

That you would eventually choose to ride such an unstable vehicle without at least putting on a helmet is of course your own decision, and just because others act stupid and think that it never goes wrong for them is no guarantee that you will not be unlucky yourself.    You can't say you'll never crash just because you're good at looking out for yourself.   These vehicles (scooters) are some of the most unstable crap ever invented.  Let go of the handlebars 2 seconds and there you go.  No self steering.  Just a plank with wheels stolen from at shopping cart... no wonder why people crash.