Begode V2 Master Rotation Noise just started

[Rawnei]

All us Master owners:

 

Still waiting for my replacement battery, they shipped it without declaring dangerous goods so it was sent back.. waiting for try nr.2, still undeclared but with another shipping company, joy.

[Cerbera]

Aah, they're such dodgy bastards aren't they ?  lols. Or is that you insisting on airmail cos you don't wanna wait for a nice safe 'eventually class' boat ?!

Good luck with try 2 my friend... 

Edited October 26, 2022 by Cerbera

[UtahRider]

10 hours ago, Cerbera said:

OK interesting developments today. Having finally resigned myself to not having the Master to ride for the foreseeable future, but relatively content that I probably wouldn't die before I got the chance to ride it again, as reported above, it has been sitting in my lounge taunting me with its (defunct) Majesty. It has been 2 days since I took it out in the damp, and as I passed it on the way back from 'old' wheeling today, I couldn't resist just briefly continuing my tests to make sure the wheely noise was definitely there...

  Reveal hidden contents

AND IT WASN"T !!! :/

Dare I get my hopes up ?! I repeated all the tests above.

In the kitchen circles test I was getting no repeat of the noise, even doing it for a solid minute.

Then I lay it down on each side, and tried manual free spin for some time - NO sign of original noise !!

OMG, I began to think - is this going to ridable after all, and NOT need to wait for a lengthy motor repair ?

I did another kitchen spin test, and this time, after about a minute I thought I heard the noise just once, but very very much quieter than it was before.

Subsequent trolleying about in my lounge is (so far) not producing the noise, but I have stopped testing now because I will be heartbroken all over again if it comes back ! 

So, if the evidence is thusly, and the only thing that has changed is that the wheel has been warm and dry for 2 days of inactivity; it was on with headlight, but stationary for 6 hrs yesterday (oh and I attached a new TPU stand-piece, but surely that can't have anything to do with it) why would the noise that was so prominent only a day ago suddenly have gone now ?! Anybody got any theories ?!

I will do very cautious test rides in the yard / drive tomorrow, where, if I convince myself it is bound to return, then I can only be pleasantly surprised if it doesn't ! Or dropped on my face from 8 ft when my bearings seize up !  I'll wear the helmet.

Man, sorry this happened. For what it’s worth, if it were mine I’d send it back for a new motor/fix. You know there’s a knock noise, we heard it so for peace of mind and hard as it is, let Speedyfeet fix it while under warranty. Good luck. No issues w mine so far but I don’t ride in wet weather either.

[UtahRider]

10 hours ago, Cerbera said:

OK interesting developments today. Having finally resigned myself to not having the Master to ride for the foreseeable future, but relatively content that I probably wouldn't die before I got the chance to ride it again, as reported above, it has been sitting in my lounge taunting me with its (defunct) Majesty. It has been 2 days since I took it out in the damp, and as I passed it on the way back from 'old' wheeling today, I couldn't resist just briefly continuing my tests to make sure the wheely noise was definitely there...

  Reveal hidden contents

AND IT WASN"T !!! :/

Dare I get my hopes up ?! I repeated all the tests above.

In the kitchen circles test I was getting no repeat of the noise, even doing it for a solid minute.

Then I lay it down on each side, and tried manual free spin for some time - NO sign of original noise !!

OMG, I began to think - is this going to ridable after all, and NOT need to wait for a lengthy motor repair ?

I did another kitchen spin test, and this time, after about a minute I thought I heard the noise just once, but very very much quieter than it was before.

Subsequent trolleying about in my lounge is (so far) not producing the noise, but I have stopped testing now because I will be heartbroken all over again if it comes back ! 

So, if the evidence is thusly, and the only thing that has changed is that the wheel has been warm and dry for 2 days of inactivity; it was on with headlight, but stationary for 6 hrs yesterday (oh and I attached a new TPU stand-piece, but surely that can't have anything to do with it) why would the noise that was so prominent only a day ago suddenly have gone now ?! Anybody got any theories ?!

I will do very cautious test rides in the yard / drive tomorrow, where, if I convince myself it is bound to return, then I can only be pleasantly surprised if it doesn't ! Or dropped on my face from 8 ft when my bearings seize up !  I'll wear the helmet.

Man, sorry to hear. If it was mine, and hard as it is,  I’d return for a new motor/fix while under warranty. You know there’s a knock, we heard it and these sounds are usually warning bells. You’ll have peace of mind when you know it’s fixed right. No issues w mine but I don’t ride in wet weather either. I love the wheel the more I ride it. Good luck!

[Cerbera]

Thanks, @UtahRider that is still the plan. And my previous 'hopes up' moment of earlier was short lived - in the next round of tests a couple of hours later it was back again...

[UtahRider]

1 minute ago, Cerbera said:

Thanks, @UtahRider that is still the plan. And my previous 'hopes up' moment of earlier was short lived - in the next round of tests a couple of hours later it was back again...

Damn, got me concerned but thanks for posting so the rest know what to keep an eye on.

[Magman116]

My RS 19 that had the same issues also had the knocking sound go away after sitting for a while.  Before I changed the bearings, I decided to take it for another ride to see if the sound was still there.  To my surprise, it was gone completely.  So, I decided to take it on my normal 10 mile trail ride. Close to half way through, the knock was back.  

So, I think as the bearings heated up, they started knocking again. After returning home.  I let the wheel cool of while recharging.  Then when I took it out to test it in the neighborhood, the sound was gone, then shortly started to come back, but softly.

Once the bearing were replaced, the sound was completely gone and did not return.  It was also notably smoother. Problem was definitely the bearings.  

[Cerbera]

Thanks @Magman116. The more you talk about it, and the more I hear the noise, the more I am convinced we are having the same issue there.

SO annoying that such a small, cheap thing is gonna take so long to sort out !! Yet I daren't just buy the parts and do it myself or I void my warranty, and I worry I would miss something vital !

 

 

[Cerbera]

As it's been nearly week since I heard from Begode / Speedyfeet I have been looking at what it might take to fix this myself. After a bit of searching about, I did find this extremely helpful video by much-respected experimental EUC nutter Chooch, where he shows, in detail how to re-grease your bearings and get into those begode motors.

He only needs a pick / spudger and a shitload of marine grease, some silicone, and about an hour. I can't tell you how tempting it is to just try this myself, than to have to wait up to 3 months to have it either replaced or have exactly the same done to it by the dealer. I particularly like that he doesn't even have to remove the pedal hangars, and it seems possible that I could do this without even disconnecting the motor from the mainboard if I just free enough cable to do a tyre change ?

Would re-greasing the bearings REALLY invalidate the warranty for the whole machine do we think ? Would anybody know, if I did it well enough ?!  Of course I would ask the dealer about this first. But quite encouraged to know this can be done, and relatively cheaply / easily / quickly. Of course, ALL this is contingent on my rubbing / clicking noise being a bearing thing, but I am 95% convinced it is, and not anything more serious, like stator slip.

Here's what I need, I think. (Ignore the tyre things - also swapping out for CityGrip Extra at same time)

So, 35 quid and an hour of time, and back out riding on a vastly superiorly waterproofed wheel, or the long and tedious wait for communication with Begode, and the all the horrible dealer shipping hassle. Impatience is not a virtue, and not something I am very good at (my supply of it was largely exhausted in the 4 month pre-order wait for the Master anyway), and I must confess I am rather tempted to just sort it out myself.

Hmmm. Decisions, decisions. Any opinions welcome.

 

Edited October 28, 2022 by Cerbera

[Tawpie]

1 hour ago, Cerbera said:

Hmmm. Decisions, decisions. Any opinions welcome.

I would confirm that your reseller is going to replace 'parts', get their commitment documented, then let them know you may try to fix it yourself since it'll take forever to get replacement parts. But you still must have the replacement parts. If they won't agree, then you're kind of stuck.

[Paul A]

1 hour ago, Cerbera said:

re-grease your bearings

 

If the bearings have rubber seals......

Grease and rubber.

 

https://www.thelubricantstore.com/rubber-seal-compatibility-chart

It isn't uncommon in industrial applications for for greases to come in contact with rubber seals or other parts. 

Many greases aren't compatible with certain types of rubber, which can cause seals to swell or crack and lead to damage and down-time. 

Keep in mind, additives can also impact compatibility, so be sure to know exactly what's in your grease.

 

https://wd40.com.au/uses/white-lithium-grease-vs-silicone-lubricant-whats-the-difference

Uses and Advantages of Silicone Lubricant

As mentioned above, and unlike lithium grease, silicone lubricant is the perfect lubricant for rubber surfaces, but it is also extremely versatile, so it can be used on most other materials, including metal, plastic, wood, and even painted materials.

[alcatraz]

Maybe you can feel it by hand if you turn it to the right spot and then put some sideways pressure while rocking it. You might be able to figure something out.

[Cerbera]

Did something a bit reckless just now. Wheeled my Master round the kitchen a bit, and finding the noise temporarily absent, resolved to go for a very short little ride outside, to see if it a) remained gone, b) came back, or c) got worse. My only possible justification was that I need to get the battery down, but really I just wanted to ride it, despite it being quite sketchy, and I was weak.

The answer was b, after merely 200 meters, and c, in that it got louder and 'grindier' on the way back home, sounding with a sharper rapport, an almost duck-like quack style creak. Now it sounds much more like a frog croaking than a clonk as I go along. Still didn't drop me though, although I was expecting it at any moment and was uber-armoured just in case.

Probably won't be trying that again. Had more luck than patience today. Must do better. To that end I have upped the speed alarm on my MS3 (just a bit, to 35 kph), which might make it a bit more exciting 'til the Master returns without the duck / frog impressions.

 

Edited October 29, 2022 by Cerbera

[Cerbera]

8 hours ago, alcatraz said:

Maybe you can feel it by hand if you turn it to the right spot and then put some sideways pressure while rocking it. You might be able to figure something out.

Yes, with the wheel on its side I sometimes think I can feel a little 'rough patch' when I slowly turn the wheel, but other times I think I am imagining it. Someone's gotta go in there and check it out properly I think; only question is whether that is me or the dealer, and how soon that can happen. In a lot of ways I hope I can persude Gotway to send either a replacement motor or bearing set via airmail, but if they are not playing ball, I may just come up with some balls of my own, specifically these ones if I can find them in the UK (no luck so far)... "6012-2NSE Nachi Brand Rubber Seal Ball Bearing 60x95x18".

Talking of which... could I trouble you, @Magman116 one more time to ask a little more detail about that bearing swap you had. All the links for the bearings seem to show them coming as a single disc-type unit, which I presumably need 2 of - 1 for each side ? My question is, are we aiming to install those whole units into the motor, or are we just nicking the new ball bearings out of them to replace any duff ones we find in the motor ? If we are replacing the whole thing, do you know how one might attach the new bearing races to the wheel ? I can't see any screws, yet can't believe they are press fit or merely glued in... cheers.

Edited October 29, 2022 by Cerbera

[Tawpie]

2 hours ago, Cerbera said:

yet can't believe they are press fit

I'm betting they're press fit, that you need two, and they're a unit (no picking out individual bearings). Some hammer them in using a wooden block, at one point there was a GW video of bearing installation via hammer alone (no wood), but that's not a preferred technique.

[mrelwood]

 

On 10/28/2022 at 6:38 PM, Cerbera said:

I did find this extremely helpful video by much-respected experimental EUC nutter Chooch, where he shows, in detail how to re-grease your bearings and get into those begode motors.

There are a lot of things wrong with Chooch's method, just like he said himself. Starting with the title: that’s not re-greasing. That’s adding a different kind of grease to one side of the bearing only.

You're riding a new $3000 wheel and you decide to half-ass it and save one hour of work? Nobody's time is that expensive! I get that Chooch and some other people might not have the concentration that’s required to do stuff like this properly. But if you do, please don’t half-ass your way out of it!

 

On 10/28/2022 at 6:38 PM, Cerbera said:

I can't tell you how tempting it is to just try this myself, than to have to wait up to 3 months to have it either replaced or have exactly the same done to it by the dealer.

Trust me, there isn’t a dealer in the world that would do that even if asked. And bearings don’t knock because they don’t have enough Marine Grease on one side of the bearing. My guess is that Chooch’s method wouldn’t even fix your issue, at least not long term.

On 10/28/2022 at 6:38 PM, Cerbera said:

Would anybody know, if I did it well enough ?!

If you did it “well enough”, you wouldn’t follow that method.

On 10/28/2022 at 6:38 PM, Cerbera said:

I am rather tempted to just sort it out myself.

If you do, concentrate on properly inserting and aligning the bearings and the rotator. Re-grease (properly!) if you want to, but I think that’s a separate quest.

 

On 10/28/2022 at 8:24 PM, Paul A said:

Many greases aren't compatible with certain types of rubber

My guess is that a bigger risk than the rubber seal is the existing grease type material that’s in there currently.

One of the main reasons that EUC riders like to use Marine Grease is it’s low viscosity 100 mm2/s, when many other greases are 800 or even higher. I have only handled two silicone greases, but they were both very thick, and definitely unsuitable for bearings.

 

3 hours ago, Cerbera said:

are we aiming to install those whole units

Yes, you need to install the whole bearing. You need to apply heat to the bearing cover to get the bearing out, or directly on the bearing if it stays on the hub (in which case the bearing must be replaced).

There are good bearing replacement guides around here. Just don’t follow anything that says “Chooch” on it… 

[alcatraz]

Try riding with the wheel flipped around or on one leg.

When the body weight shifts the noise could change.

If it's a bearing then it shouldn't be impossible to guess which side it is. By putting pressure in different directions.

Also is there any play in the bearings?

[Cerbera]

4 hours ago, mrelwood said:

You're riding a new $3000 wheel and you decide to half-ass it and save one hour of work? Nobody's time is that expensive! I get that Chooch and some other people might not have the concentration that’s required to do stuff like this properly. But if you do, please don’t half-ass your way out of it!

Thank you - I probably needed that bollocking   But I am not trying to save 1 hour of work - I am try to DO 1 hour of work if there is any chance that might prevent me from having no wheel for months (or more), which is bound to be the case if I have to send it back, and wait for Gotway to ship a whole new motor.

Of course I don't want to half-ass anything, but when my noise started, and seemed very minor, it made some sense to me to at least try and get in there and inspect it and see if there was anything obviously wrong I could address before I had to send it half way up the country for a few months. You know, like in that video I found (not Chooches) where that guy finds no grease at all in 2 of the cells in the bearing race. Adding a bit more grease if necessary was about the limit of what I would be happy attempting to fix myself.

As soon as people are talking about heating up ball races, that is beyond my tools, know-how and equipment to fix - so now there is no question is has to go back.

Riding it today was mostly about wishful thinking and 'hoping it had gone away', but obviously the real world has other plans.

2 hours ago, alcatraz said:

Try riding with the wheel flipped around or on one leg.

When the body weight shifts the noise could change.

It is true that the noise becomes radically less if I ride backwards, but it is still there. After some period of inactivity the wheel is silent when rolled about for about the first minute, then it is a turn to the left that starts the noise, which eventually persists regardless of the angle of the angle of the wheel. That might be a clue if it was consistent, but today it seemed worse whenever I turned right AND to be getting generally worse and louder with the noises, so no idea what to make of that !

I'll put it back in the box - that way I won't have to see it everyday and be tempted to 'try things'.

Cheers guys for all advice so far...

Edited October 30, 2022 by Cerbera

[alcatraz]

It could be that bearings wear in a bit, develop enough play for the stator to rub on the housing. Fix with a shim/alignment or better bearings

You'll know if it's the sound is the bearing or something else, when you take the motor cover off.

Do you see rusty goo around one of the seals? Signs of contamination.

[mrelwood]

2 hours ago, Cerbera said:

Thank you - I probably needed that bollocking   But I am not trying to save 1 hour of work - I am try to DO 1 hour of work if there is any chance that might prevent me from having no wheel for months (or more)

I’ll gladly walk you through the steps I’d take if I was trying to fix that issue on my wheel. You do need a heat gun though.

If you want to actually re-grease the bearings, you’ll also need Marine grease, and acetone (this was best out of the ones I have) to get the old one out.

You’ll of course need the tools to actually disassemble the wheel, a large flathead, and a hammer. A few blocks of wood are definitely useful as well. Like 0.5-1” x 1-2” x 6-10”.

 If you hold a hammer with your pinky pointing up, this is not the job for you… But if you have some idea of how to use the above tools, I would encourage you to do it. Just like you said, waiting for months really sucks.

Edited October 30, 2022 by mrelwood

[Cerbera]

13 hours ago, mrelwood said:

 If you hold a hammer with your pinky pointing up, this is not the job for you…

Oh I very much do, and can't even think of any other way to hold a hammer, so I suspect I am not the right person for this ! I do have the tools to take the wheel apart to component level, but no heat guns and whatnot, and I'd be deeply uncomfortable twatting anything with hammers !  Thank you for the offer to walk me through it though.

So I think my options remain:

1. Pursue new motor from Gotway

2. Find local motor specialist and pay them to refurb it, diagnose the issue and make it work !

But this was very useful in eradicating me and my 'have-a-go-Henry' tendencies from the equation.

Edited October 30, 2022 by Cerbera

[Paul A]

 

11 minutes ago, Cerbera said:

. Find local motor specialist and pay them to refurb it, diagnose the issue and make it work !

 

https://personalelectrictransport.co.uk/contact-us/

 

Leyton. UK.

They sell, service, repair EUCs.

[gon2fast]

1 hour ago, Cerbera said:

1. Pursue new motor from Gotway

2. Find local motor specialist and pay them to refurb it, diagnose the issue and make it work !

I would suggest buying a new motor as the above options will be stressful and expensive. Per example, I have a V11 where they used the wrong type of glue on the motor bolts. Had a local shop fix everything and it cost far more than a replacement motor. Problems still persisted so IM approved a warranty claim for a replacement motor. That was 11 months ago and I have seen/heard nothing and the wheel has been unrideable the entire time.

[Cerbera]

7 minutes ago, gon2fast said:

I would suggest buying a new motor as the above options will be stressful and expensive. Per example, I have a V11 where they used the wrong type of glue on the motor bolts. Had a local shop fix everything and it cost far more than a replacement motor. Problems still persisted so IM approved a warranty claim for a replacement motor. That was 11 months ago and I have seen/heard nothing and the wheel has been unrideable the entire time.

Aww man - that sucks so bad that you have been without yours for 11 months... I would be on the phone every bloody day at that stage, and would be getting quite shouty by then. That sort of situation is EXACTLY what I am trying to avoid. Who is your dealer that is taking so long to rectify this ? Do they give you updates / reasons for delays ?

At the same time I am damned if I am going to pay for new motor. Begode have provided one that failed almost immediately - if that doesn't get replaced under warranty, I'll be the wrong side of 'fucking furious'.

Edited October 30, 2022 by Cerbera

[Magman116]

I thought it was fairly simple to replace the  bearings. I took a coat hanger and cut it to make a simple hanger to grip the bearing from the we center. Then heated the metal plate with a propane touch slowly and lifted up on the coat hanger and the bearings just lift out without any effort.

Then to put the new bearings in, you heat the motor bearing plate up with the touch and drop the bearings in place. Once it cooled down,  the bearings are locked in place.

Make sure to use thread locker on The small bolts holding the motor plates on.

These are the ones I ordered.

6012-2NSE cm NACHI Brand Rubber Seal Ball Bearing 60x95x18 6012 2RS 6012RS https://a.co/d/0RHqods

If you don't feel you can do the job, it is worth it to find some that can.