Begode V2 Master Rotation Noise just started

[Cerbera]

Prompted by further replies to this thread I did shine a torch over my hub this evening to see how the land was laying, so to speak, and found quite a bit of grease sludge / leakage from the bearing covers - I may have been slightly too generous with the LiquiMoly in mine. I don't like the amount of sandy crap that has already adhered to it, but it is still rotating very smoothly, and the knocking noise remains absent, so can live with it another week I guess, until the tools arrive to change the tyre, at which point I will extract the motor, clean it up and inspect more closely. I did check to make sure the bearing seals hadn't popped out in use, but there was nothing hanging from the axle so presumably not. Still, I was quite careful to clean up the excess grease after I did the initial treatment so it's a bit concerting that any seems to have leaked out.

Edited November 16, 2022 by Cerbera

[Paul A]

https://www.skf.com/group/products/super-precision-bearings/principles/bearing-selection-process/lubrication/suitable-grease

Sealed bearings are filled with a high grade, low viscosity grease that fills ~ 15% of the free space in the bearing.

 

https://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/28664/dangers-of-overgreasing-

When it comes to regreasing bearings, more is not always the better option and actually can be a costly mistake.

Overgreasing can lead to high operating temperatures, collapsed seals and in the case of greased electric motors, energy loss and failures.

 

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/consequences-over-lubricating-your-bearings-kamlesh-pal

Over-lubricating bearings will cause the rollers or balls to slide along the raceways, rather than turning.

As they push along, they also push the grease out of the way, resulting in a low to no lubrication scenario.

This grease churn and accelerated rate of oil bleed will cause your component temperatures to rise, which in turn will cause the grease to harden and hinder lubrication even more—causing oxidation and resulting in bearing failure. 

 

In instances where bearings are in an electric motor, over-lubricating those bearings can cause serious damage.

If the excess grease reaches the motor windings, the windings will get insulated with grease, causing inefficient performance, overheating, and bearing failure.

[Aztek]

1 hour ago, Paul A said:

https://www.skf.com/group/products/super-precision-bearings/principles/bearing-selection-process/lubrication/suitable-grease

Sealed bearings are filled with a high grade, low viscosity grease that fills ~ 15% of the free space in the bearing.

 

https://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/28664/dangers-of-overgreasing-

When it comes to regreasing bearings, more is not always the better option and actually can be a costly mistake.

Overgreasing can lead to high operating temperatures, collapsed seals and in the case of greased electric motors, energy loss and failures.

 

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/consequences-over-lubricating-your-bearings-kamlesh-pal

Over-lubricating bearings will cause the rollers or balls to slide along the raceways, rather than turning.

As they push along, they also push the grease out of the way, resulting in a low to no lubrication scenario.

This grease churn and accelerated rate of oil bleed will cause your component temperatures to rise, which in turn will cause the grease to harden and hinder lubrication even more—causing oxidation and resulting in bearing failure. 

 

In instances where bearings are in an electric motor, over-lubricating those bearings can cause serious damage.

If the excess grease reaches the motor windings, the windings will get insulated with grease, causing inefficient performance, overheating, and bearing failure.

Getting even more exciting

After all, the bearings are stuck in the motor shell, which in turn is connected to the rim via multiple bolts, right?

Should be (on second though, seeing the video few posts before) feasible to remove the bearing and change it with a quality one which will go forever.

Edited November 16, 2022 by Aztek

[Paul A]

1 minute ago, Aztek said:

change it with a quality one which will go forever.

 

Yes.  Maybe just take the old bearing into a store, and buy the same size in a quality bearing.

Quality part, less chance of failure, longer life, less maintenance, etc.

A lot of annoying problems can happen with disassembling/reassembling/changing parts/maintenance.

Stuck bolts, rusted bolts, worn tools that round bolt heads, removing parts that are glued on, so many things that can go wrong......looks easy on YouTube.

[Cerbera]

1 hour ago, Paul A said:

https://www.skf.com/group/products/super-precision-bearings/principles/bearing-selection-process/lubrication/suitable-grease

Sealed bearings are filled with a high grade, low viscosity grease that fills ~ 15% of the free space in the bearing.

 

https://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/28664/dangers-of-overgreasing-

When it comes to regreasing bearings, more is not always the better option and actually can be a costly mistake.

Overgreasing can lead to high operating temperatures, collapsed seals and in the case of greased electric motors, energy loss and failures.

 

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/consequences-over-lubricating-your-bearings-kamlesh-pal

Over-lubricating bearings will cause the rollers or balls to slide along the raceways, rather than turning.

As they push along, they also push the grease out of the way, resulting in a low to no lubrication scenario.

This grease churn and accelerated rate of oil bleed will cause your component temperatures to rise, which in turn will cause the grease to harden and hinder lubrication even more—causing oxidation and resulting in bearing failure. 

 

In instances where bearings are in an electric motor, over-lubricating those bearings can cause serious damage.

If the excess grease reaches the motor windings, the windings will get insulated with grease, causing inefficient performance, overheating, and bearing failure.

Well that's all quite worrying to read, but it's too late for me and Goatman and Cooch, who all went to town with the new grease. I am having some difficulty in seeing how the grease could penetrate the motor cavity - isn't the whole point of a sealed bearing that it is... sealed, and doesn't it sit inside a steel cup recess inside the hub ?

I guess for the people that have regreased time will tell if it's a feasible long-term solution. I was hoping that there was very little to lose in this procedure because if it all goes wrong we can replace the whole bearing, but if there is a serious risk of it spannering the motor that is much more serious, and nobody wants to be 500 quid down for another one of those.

Edited November 16, 2022 by Cerbera

[Aztek]

18 minutes ago, Paul A said:

 

Yes.  Maybe just take the old bearing into a store, and buy the same size in a quality bearing.

Quality part, less chance of failure, longer life, less maintenance, etc.

A lot of annoying problems can happen with disassembling/reassembling/changing parts/maintenance.

Stuck bolts, rusted bolts, worn tools that round bolt heads, removing parts that are glued on, so many things that can go wrong......looks easy on YouTube.

Sure, there are always complications.

Minimizing them can happen with using the right tools. There are for example inexpensive tools for removing bearings, like this.

Edited November 16, 2022 by Aztek

[Paul A]

23 minutes ago, Cerbera said:

if there is a serious risk of it spannering the motor that is much more serious

 

Thanks for being the guinea pig for everyone. 

[Aztek]

21 minutes ago, Paul A said:

 

Thanks for being the guinea pig for everyone. 

We are all. Can't avoid it with this purely Chinese products.

[Paul A]

Insert caption here:

 

[Punxatawneyjoe]

5 hours ago, Cerbera said:

found quite a bit of grease sludge / leakage from the bearing covers

This can be the seal not seating properly because it was pried out or even more concerning the bearing heating up and melting the grease. i think Paul A is right on the 15% thing for sealed bearings. I have only experience with bearings on heavy things that run at high speed like cars,trucks, trailers etc. I have never had luck re-packing a bearing making noise. Usually they continue to degrade until eventual failure. With a light EUC/rider combo at low speeds you probably aren't in any danger of the bearing coming apart but i would replace them asap. Usually contamination inside the bearing causes the balls to skid along the race resulting it metal on metal grinding making them out of round....just my 2 cents.

[mrelwood]

14 hours ago, Cerbera said:

found quite a bit of grease sludge / leakage from the bearing covers - I may have been slightly too generous with the LiquiMoly in mine.

One of the many reasons why Chooch’s method is not recommended, is that the amount, mixture, and spread of grease isn’t controlled in any way. If you fill a bearing full of grease, it will push some of it out when rotating. As you’ve noticed, it pushes it out hard enough to move the seal temporarily out of the way.

 But it definitely doesn’t reach 15% by just this phenomena, so you still have a lot of excess grease in the bearing.

12 hours ago, Cerbera said:

I am having some difficulty in seeing how the grease could penetrate the motor cavity - isn't the whole point of a sealed bearing that it is... sealed, and doesn't it sit inside a steel cup recess inside the hub ?

With these larger bearings there is no cup, the inside edge of the bearing is open to the motor cavity. And when the bearing pushes the excess grease out, it does have enough force to temporarily slightly deform the seal, so some of the excess does gather up outside of the bearing. As you have now witnessed.

 If you were able to press enough of the grease to the other side of the balls as well, then some of the grease has possibly exited from the other side as well.

 Do properly, do once. Follow Chooch, do twice…

[Cerbera]

8 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

One of the many reasons why Chooch’s method is not recommended

And yet it has 'worked' for at least 3 users who have done this, including me, in that I haven't heard a single knock from that wheel since doing it, and the free rotation of it continues to be the smoothest it has ever been ! And I was delighted to have been able to get the wheel up and working with minimal down time and without sending it away to anybody.

Now, if I do end up replacing the bearing with a new one I can still get that done locally, so not the end of the world, but obviously it's still a ton of hassle so I would prefer not to do it unless I have to, which means I now have to determine if it is necessary. I don't care if a bit of grease (and on further inspection today it's not actually that much) gets pushed out by rolling but I obviously do care if the bearing is running massively hot. Presumably I would be able to feel that with fingers by touching the bearing shortly after a ride if it was reaching problematic temps ? How hot SHOULD a bearing run ?! Or should it be entirely cold to touch ?  

I could also go in and remove some grease of course, but I am not sure if it is a good idea to further risk seals by picking them again, or if removing grease would see the return of my horrible noises. Hmmm. I will give it some further thought and see more comprehensively what the situation is once I do that tyre change next week. I may even pop the hubs to see where any escaping grease has got to, and will report my findings if I do that.

 

[Aztek]

Actually, with 5 degrees higher ambient temperature, the wheel stopped roaring.

This is strange... Some loss of capacity of the grease when cold? This should resolve with some kilometer riding as the bearings warm up. Will test tomorrow.

[mrelwood]

On 11/16/2022 at 11:30 PM, Cerbera said:

And yet it has 'worked' for at least 3 users who have done this

If the goal is to only silence a noisy bearing short term, sure it will often work, I don’t question that. But I don’t think that it should be the yardstick for measuring the whole functionality of the bearing. And getting some grease inside the motor is a valid concern as well. But I do hope that your mod will work well long term as well.

 

On 11/16/2022 at 11:30 PM, Cerbera said:

but I obviously do care if the bearing is running massively hot.

The RPMs we use the bearings at is quite low considering what it is capable for. This is just a hunch, but my guess is that heating up due to excess grease won’t be a problem for EUCs.

 

On 11/16/2022 at 11:30 PM, Cerbera said:

or if removing grease would see the return of my horrible noises. 

Opposed to the factory bearing the bearing track should now be well greased, so I don’t think scraping the grease off from the top of the ball cage would make the noise return (any faster).

[Cerbera]

3 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

The RPMs we use the bearings at is quite low considering what it is capable for. This is just a hunch, but my guess is that heating up due to excess grease won’t be a problem for EUCs.

Thank you for your continued thoughts on this. I did remember to stop and check the temperature of a bearing when I got back from a 22 km ride today (still no unexpected noises !) and it was cold to the touch, as was the whole hub, from which I took some reassurance that nothing can be going too badly wrong in the short term.

13 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

If the goal is to only silence a noisy bearing short term, sure it will often work, I don’t question that. But I don’t think that it should be the yardstick for measuring the whole functionality of the bearing. And getting some grease inside the motor is a valid concern as well. But I do hope that your mod will work well long term as well.

Yeah, it does make me a bit uncomfortable that I am drinking in the 'suck-it-and-see' saloon, but I have yet to see any other sign from the wheel that the bearing may not be working optimally now. I have done another full week or 2 of rides since the re-greasing and the Master hasn't done anything weird so far. My new bigger, manlier tyre change tools are arriving tomorrow, and I was going to change the tyre and examine the bearings as soon as they did, but I am even having second thoughts about that now I am more used to the stock tyre - today's ride on it was perhaps the first one where I fully 'embraced the lean' and stopped considering it something to worry about. I really like its grippiness in mud and puddles and leaves and whatnot.

But I am resolved to be prepared for future failure, so I am still trying to source replacement bearings in this country. The one place I found that had them listed don't answer emails, but I will keep trying, and I'm sure I'll find them somewhere.

 

[Cerbera]

I know it's listed in this site somewhere, but site search isn't helping me AT ALL, so wondered if any Master owners out there who have swapped bearings would be able to tell me if these are the right ones before I order them ?

Many thanks

[RagingGrandpa]

Welcome back to your own thread 

On 10/30/2022 at 9:50 AM, Magman116 said:

Rubber Seal Ball Bearing 60x95x18 6012 2RS 6012RS https://a.co/d/0RHqods

and

33 minutes ago, Cerbera said:

tell me if these are the right ones?

NACHI 6012 2NSE C3 Contact Rubber Sealed Deep Groove Ball Bearing 60x95x18mm

That will fit just like any other size 6012 bearing. 

The other details are not ideal though: it's not a top-quality brand, and Clearance 3 means it will have a sloppy fit of the bearing balls inside the race. That's good for some applications, but not good for EUC because our bearings are the only thing keeping the rotor aligned to the stator. 

Instead, I'd recommend: 
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/174616963615?var=473822019023
SKF 6012 2RS CN

 

Edited January 24 by RagingGrandpa
Nachi Japan has a good reputation, but is slightly less reputable than the bigger players SKF/NSK/INA

[Cerbera]

42 minutes ago, RagingGrandpa said:

Welcome back to your own thread 

and

That will fit just like any other size 6012 bearing. 

The other details are not ideal though- it's not a top-quality brand, and Clearance 3 means it will have a sloppy fit of the bearing balls inside the race. That's good for some applications, but not good for EUC because our bearings are the only thing keeping the rotor aligned to the stator. 

Instead, I'd recommend: 
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/174616963615?var=473822019023
SKF 6012 2RS CN

And like the wind, it was merged where it should be !! - thank you

And also maximum thanks for all that invaluable info and the alternative link ! I shall be getting those forthwith !! AND they're cheaper than than the Naki ones I was looking at !

Heroic response time as well - somebody should give you cake or something !

[Cerbera]

Well, great news in that the regreasing further seems to have worked in that I had a largely silent wheel while on a test trip into town - don't think I heard the knocking once !

But I have ordered the bearings anyway, as I reckon that's 50 quid well spent for a more permanent solution ! I will fit them as  soon as any untoward noises crop up again.

Edited January 24 by Cerbera

[Magman116]

I have over 2k miles on my Master since installed the Rubber Seal Ball Bearing 60x95x18 6012 2RS 6012RS https://a.co/d/0RHqods

I have ridden through deep water, in the rain and through lots of mud without any bearing issues. There does not appear to be any slop in the bearings and have performed flawlessly for over a year.

The bearings you got will probably last the life of your wheel once you install them after the stock bearings finally go out.

 

[goatman]

ya grease gets in the motor but was easily cleaned up with a q-tip

i replaced them with these bearings, the same Roger euc used

https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B011YLEIHE?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details

im at roughly 16,000 km's and the bearing and tire are just about toast

im doing the 3rd tire, tube and set of bearings for probably the last time before the battery craps out on me.

[Timwheel]

Hello Guys, my bearings are still fine currently but starting to make noise (very linear noise, no knocking and no play, and nothing hear piercing, above 40 kph I can't really hear them). They have 3.300 km and I've used the wheel through absolutely everything, snow, heavy rain (very regularly), pedal-deep water due to floods in Paris, very hot weather and they held on pretty well. This is not my only wheel, but it's the only one I feel comfortable to do my 22km to and 22km from work because I need high speed and suspension to save me from potholes which are numerous in Paris. I also have a KS18L, an S18 that I got for incredibly cheap since it didn't charge (after opening it, dead cell and fried BMS resistance on the front left pack, nothing that will keep it from running in a week) and a KS14, but I'd rather make sure my master is available rapidly ...

Here's my question: I feel and think that my bearings are good, but could use some grease. I would love to replace the bearings but I'm a bit worried I will run into trouble and lose my wheel for too long (I've been using classic cars as daily before, I know what it feels to repair under time pressure and it's awful).

It seems to me that getting the wheel of necessitates 8 bolts total + a front battery removal for the cable to have some slack. Then I have to ply open the seal, clean it, grease it, on each side. Sounds like a 1h job max, am I mistaken ? This summer I'll have time to put on the best watertight bearings I can find (if you have good references that have stood the test of time I'm all hear !) but in the meantime I'd like them not to disassemble themselves to dust...

Thank you very much all of you Master owners

[Timwheel]

So I did it, and it wasn't as bad as I thought:

It

While it looks very rusty, once cleaned it is in very good condition...

I was very generous with the grease, to pop out the seals I bended a small precision screwdriver. To put them on again, I just placed them properly and made circles with my finger until they where flush: I think the metal back side is stopped by the cage of the bearing and therefore can't be "overpushed" like some seals can be.

The noise is now much less than before (keep in mind, I had no clonks, just a small rotation noise like a whining). It seems to solve my problem

Thanks to Cerbera for answering my questions in the DMs

Tim