On the leash - a knotty problem...

[conecones]

When the fastest wheels were 50-60 lbs, there could have been an argument made for leashes for street riding, but now that 100+lbs wheels are incoming, tethering yourself to the wheel is going to be as risky as tethering to a motorcycle. With this extra weight, damage from a high speed crash will be significant (whether its to the wheel, rider, or bystanders), and riders of these wheels just need to understand and accept the financial risk of hitting a car/bike/pedestrian. If insurance isn't available, then just be prepared to pay for damages/fines or be sued. This just comes with the territory of riding without insurance/riding an unregulated/illegal motor vehicle.

 

Edited October 19, 2022 by conecones

[MetricUSA]

Riding the 18xl was nice the handle was the kill switch so naturally putting the leash there was a no brainer, but on the S22 the only spot is the front handle, you can not use the back kill switch, for several reasons, the cord is next to the wheel going into the machine, and the kill switch will not allow you to add a gap whatsoever... So yes I will always wear a leash... Maybe not on very slow rides... 

That being said it doesn't matter how big, heavy or fast the euc gets because your not legally allowed to go faster than 40 km/h since it is not a registered/licensed vehicle!!! So you are breaking the law going faster ... You can cause plenty of damage under 40 km/h... 

Edited October 19, 2022 by MetricUSA

[mrelwood]

22 hours ago, MetricUSA said:

the 18xl was nice the handle was the kill switch so naturally putting the leash there was a no brainer

You are aware that the kill switch doesn't do anything above like 2-4km/h?

[MetricUSA]

The tether that I use are these items... 

https://www.amazon.com/HandAcc-Climbing-Positioning-Protective-Equipment/dp/B08Z9NBD4V

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B088MFT4D6

Using you pants belt loop will do jackshit with stopping your wheel...

The 18xl was nice since the handle is the Killswitch, but the s22 front handle is all I can attach to so I guess it will turn and fall to the side, if it ever escapes... 

That's bullshit, you obviously don't have a 18xl... 

Edited October 27, 2022 by MetricUSA

[mrelwood]

18 hours ago, MetricUSA said:

That's bullshit, you obviously don't have a 18xl...

Ok, I’ll play along. Just shoot a video where you jog while pushing your wheel at your side, and then lift it up from the handle. Let’s see if the motor disengages or not.

I haven’t of course followed on the bug reports on all wheels’ all firmware versions, but I would think that you have the latest one where most bugs should be fixed.

[5Cauac]

16 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

Ok, I’ll play along. Just shoot a video where you jog while pushing your wheel at your side, and then lift it up from the handle. Let’s see if the motor disengages or not.

I haven’t of course followed on the bug reports on all wheels’ all firmware versions, but I would think that you have the latest one where most bugs should be fixed.

[MetricUSA]

why don't you just buy 18 XL and find out yourself? Mr know it all

[mrelwood]

6 hours ago, MetricUSA said:

why don't you just buy 18 XL and find out yourself? Mr know it all

Thanks for the title. Maybe you could first try it on your wheel and we can continue the discussion then? Mr... nevermind.

[Impoy47]

I found this on Amazon.  I think it's a better theter with quick release and at 4ft. It's a good size length IMO. Went off trails, crashed and took minimal damage instead of euc continuous rolling and stumbling down the hill.. And I've been using on the streets as well.  

[Impoy47]

Just now, Impoy47 said:

I found this on Amazon.  I think it's a better theter with quick release and at 4ft. It's a good size length IMO. Went off trails, crashed and took minimal damage instead of euc continuous rolling and stumbling down the hill.. And I've been using on the streets as well.  

Here's the link again... 

Fusion Tactical 4ft 48"x1" Internal Elastic Bungee Military Police Personal Retention Helo Lanyard with Kong Frog Shackle Snap Hook 23kN Black https://a.co/d/j8Dqc71

[The Brahan Seer]

On 10/11/2022 at 4:18 AM, Tawpie said:

I wear a bunched up Towwhee leash

@CerberaI have just bought a tow-whee all seasons/winter model £30 from Gone Biking Mad Ltd . Its 4.5 ft so just long enough using carabiners on one end and loop at the other. Extends to 12ft without moving my 25kg S18. Rated for 100Kg and the cold weather too. Will likely use it on trails mostly but will see.

Edited December 6, 2022 by The Brahan Seer

[The Brahan Seer]

@Cerbera   Just a heads up,  I just got word from WattsSingleTrack who has extensive experience of leashes and he commented about the towwhee " That’s the first one I started with. They are too thin and break easily especially with heavier wheels like the master. The inner stretchy part breaks. I broke 3x of them before finding the cibi one" 

So maybe the towwhee might be ok for the street (if it helps slow down or mitigate a bouncing wheel?) even if it breaks. But its probably better to get the cibi one mentioned earlier in this thread instead.

[Cerbera]

@Impoy47 That looks like the mother and father and grand-daddy of ALL leashes, but my goodness isn't' it priced accordingly ?!

Thats 120 quid to the UK, which seems... excessive ! Looks like it might do the job best though...

The CIBI type ones are more reasonably priced but are mainly designed for dogs, and not at all for waist-wrapping as far as I can see, so I think to avoid a deeply unpleasant 'semi-garotting' at the midriff should the worst happen, I'd also need the sort of climbing belt recommended by @MetricUSA which looks like it might be vaguely more comfortable on the body when a huge pull force is suddenly exerted on it, and is around the 25 pound mark.

I haven't been a wearing a leash on the Master so far - I think I still fear its weight being so close to my own, but I do continue to worry every single time I am riding alongside a lake or river, or beside a busy road or in town amongst people, so will probably feel the need to do something about it this coming year.

 

 

Edited December 9, 2022 by Cerbera

[Funky]

On 10/20/2022 at 10:49 PM, mrelwood said:

You are aware that the kill switch doesn't do anything above like 2-4km/h?

Right.

On 10/27/2022 at 3:39 AM, MetricUSA said:

The 18xl was nice since the handle is the Killswitch, but the s22 front handle is all I can attach to so I guess it will turn and fall to the side, if it ever escapes... 

That's bullshit, you obviously don't have a 18xl... 

I have and can confirm - If wheel is going any speed, lifting it doesn't kill off the motor. Wheel continues to ride/speed up. (If it didn't do that, riding in pothole could kill the motor.. And you go flying.)

On 10/27/2022 at 10:24 PM, mrelwood said:

Ok, I’ll play along. Just shoot a video where you jog while pushing your wheel at your side, and then lift it up from the handle. Let’s see if the motor disengages or not.

I haven’t of course followed on the bug reports on all wheels’ all firmware versions, but I would think that you have the latest one where most bugs should be fixed.

Maybe he has "bugged" wheel..? I still have 2.03V  And don't plan on updating. If it ain't broke - don't mess with it.

On 10/27/2022 at 10:40 PM, 5Cauac said:

On 10/28/2022 at 4:12 AM, MetricUSA said:

why don't you just buy 18 XL and find out yourself? Mr know it all

You wrong - He's right. So yes.. Mr. know it all - knows.  

On 10/28/2022 at 10:28 AM, mrelwood said:

Thanks for the title. Maybe you could first try it on your wheel and we can continue the discussion then? Mr... nevermind.

Well he gave up.. Maybe he tried lifting his wheel, while pushing it around and found out.. Now he's embarrassed.  

 

 

Meh was bored - wanted to have fun. Let's see if bait works. 

Edited December 9, 2022 by Funky

[The Brahan Seer]

1 hour ago, Cerbera said:

The CIBI type ones are more reasonably priced but are mainly designed for dogs

I've just ordered this through Amazon US for £30 delivered, The CIBI one on this thread is for towing bikes and is two tonne rated so should be ideal. If I had read the thread more closely I would have learned about the towwhee sooner, my bad.  I hear the CIbi are a bit longer than advertised but I will try a chain knot to shorten it if its practical. I am still at two minds about using them on the road and the risks. I have the same concerns as you both the impact to ourselves and to others.

[Josiah]

On 10/19/2022 at 1:54 PM, conecones said:

When the fastest wheels were 50-60 lbs, there could have been an argument made for leashes for street riding, but now that 100+lbs wheels are incoming, tethering yourself to the wheel is going to be as risky as tethering to a motorcycle. With this extra weight, damage from a high speed crash will be significant (whether its to the wheel, rider, or bystanders), and riders of these wheels just need to understand and accept the financial risk of hitting a car/bike/pedestrian. If insurance isn't available, then just be prepared to pay for damages/fines or be sued. This just comes with the territory of riding without insurance/riding an unregulated/illegal motor vehicle.

 

Here’s an illustration of an idea from one Hsiang’s videos about why he doesn’t like the tethers for EUC.  

. 

 

 

 

[2disbetter]

I can understand both sides of the tether scenario. What I would propose and what I'm going to do for my V13 (being a 6 foot 215 lbs in shape dude) is use a tether solution that can expand (like a bungee cord), but also has an automated break away mechanism. Manually having to do it is just risky, as most likely you'll be tumbling and unable to release the tether. If there was a mechanism that would just break free on its own, I think this would be the best. Because what you have done is slow the wheel significantly and this is better than the wheel damaging you further.  

Let's not forget that even though an accident or fall will slow you down quickly, that it is not suddenly. You are not stopping a wheel that ways over 100 lbs from zero, and so the forces exerted are also not as great. For this reason I think the tether being released would only be for situations where you stopped from hitting something, and the wheel goes off. This would be the ideal situation where a break away could really help save your body from further damage, while still trying to mitigate the damage your wheel might cause. 

Still I think I would only use it when traveling faster than 30 mph (50 kph). 

[Funky]

If you have a break off tether.. It's beats the point of having one in first place.. (Because it will automatically break off.) Sure you could add a thin string in middle or somewhere. That is rated for like ~50kg. It will break off, when wheel janks you forwards. It will slow down right that moment when it janks you. Even may drop sideways because of the ~50kg breakpoint.

Only good thing would be, if wheel goes over a hill edge. It won't drag you over the edge. But same time you have lost your wheel.. Only option would be catching the tether with your hands fast enough. Before it breaks off. And if you see the wheel is pulling you forwards danger, you can choose to let it go. And let it break off.

But good luck catching the tether.. As you are tumbling down the road.

 

All i know if i rode any place where wheel could be lost. I would tether it to my belt. Same time i would install a breakpoint around ~70-80KG. If i would be worried about going over a hill edge or other dangers. Wheel being 50kg it "should" still catch it. But same time wont pull my body along it. Doh i don't know how hard the "jank" will be - the moment the bungie stops stretching..

Edited January 23, 2023 by Funky

[Cerbera]

I'm mostly with you, @2disbetter.After much humming and ha-ing I decided I would not use a tether with my Master unless I was off-roading next to frequently steep banksides (but not clifftops !) and also not when I am riding in town on cycleways and pavements, where I find that my low speeds in these areas probably don't warrant it.

At least with the Grizzla handles I have somewhere decent to attach one that won't put undue pressure on any mechanically important parts of the machine !

An elastic component is a very important part of any leash I reckon - it doesn't matter if the wheel pulls even very hard on us in the event of a crash if that pull force is gradually /incrementally introduced rather than the dead-stop, and it's probably better for the wheel to stop that way also. And I can see how a breakaway might be good, if designed so that it only reliably does that only once the maximum elastic capacity of the leash has been exceeded, and therefore most of the speed of the wheel has already been bled off...

Of course there are situations where we definitely don't want a break-away, such as the off-road-slope-slip prevention context above...

Edited January 23, 2023 by Cerbera

[Funky]

6 minutes ago, Cerbera said:

I'm mostly with you, @2disbetter.After much humming and ha-ing I decided I would not use a tether with my Master unless I was off-roading next to frequently steep banksides (but not clifftops !) and also not when I am riding in town on cycleways and pavements, where I find that my low speeds in these areas probably don't warrant it.

At least with the Grizzla handles I have somewhere decent to attach one that won't put undue pressure on any mechanically important parts of the machine !

An elastic component is a very important part of any leash I reckon - it doesn't matter if the wheel pulls even very hard on us in the event of a crash if that pull force is gradually /incrementally introduced rather than the dead-stop, and it's probably better for the wheel to stop that way also.

Ofc bungee vs solid string. Tie something heavy and try dropping off your hand. Bungee won't even move your hand much. But regular string will jank your hand as soon as that object reaches string end.

Edited January 23, 2023 by Funky

[Cerbera]

My leash has a 'semi-breakaway' arrangement largely consisting of a loosely secured bundle of leash up by my waist that will  keep it to exactly the right length when riding, (with no chance of entanglement in wheel ) and offer a small amount of resistance when pulled on allowing it to get another 10 ft of distance from me, which will hopefully allow it to get away from under my feet as we fall, and again, lessen impact on all of us !

[Paul A]

Could maybe use a breakaway pet collar.

Attach collar to EUC, attach leash to collar.

 

 

Tony Hawk skate helmets had to be recalled, because the chin strap used a plastic buckle that could release by itself.

 

[The Brahan Seer]

If you check out Dawn Champions youtube channel she has a novel solution which is quite compelling [I really like the idea].

Plus she has crash tested it...

 

[2disbetter]

Yep, that video had me thinking about it as well. 

Thinking about it more, I wonder how stupid or practical it would be to hold your tether in your hand? That way if you fall you are holding the line already and can better handle the jerk instead of a part of your body that can't direct diddly. I just wonder if there would be a way to do that, while not also adding to a potential tether tangle in the wheel? 

 

 

[Cerbera]

1 hour ago, 2disbetter said:

I wonder how stupid or practical it would be to hold your tether in your hand?

Oh I'd hate that - I really like the freedom of having my hands free. And you don't have time in a fall to remember to clench the leash hand, so I reckon it'll get pulled straight out of your grasp unless it is perma-tied to your wrist or something, and TBH, that's probably not a great idea either. Your wrists are much more fragile than your torso, particularly if your waistband is outside your armour, and if you have a tether from the wrist it can get wrenched upwards in a crash, possibly doing horrible things to your fragile little fingers !

Edited January 24, 2023 by Cerbera