On the leash - a knotty problem...

[Cerbera]

As a rider of around 8-9 years experience I have never felt I needed or seriously considered using a leash with my wheels. I padded them, and they weren't THAT fast, so wasn't even worried about them hitting anything in a crash.

With the Master I feel different; as I have said in other threads, I think we NEED that on a leash to prevent or lessen the chances of it destroying or seriously damaging itself as these things do after cut-outs at the higher speeds, or ploughing into some small unlucky child.

So, nothing new there - been discussed many times before, and we either like them or we don't, right ?!

Well, now I am one of the ones that does, I have been thinking about exactly what I want a leash to do, what it should be made of, and how I should attach it to a) the wheel and b) myself for the optimal results.

Currently I am using bungee rope secured by metal clip locks around the handle of my MS3 going to an overstitched belt loop on my jeans (that I am half expecting to give way as it does its job), but having only started recently tethering, in practice for the master, I haven't yet had a crash with the tether attached, so I don't actually know fully what it will do when things go tits up !

My principal aim is to prevent the Master flying off into the distance, where it is free to bounce hard and high, and kill itself in the process.

However, I don't want it under my feet either, and I don't want a tether that has any chance at all of getting caught in the wheel while everything is fine. During my initial experiments during normal riding I need a leash about 70 cm long so that there is no chance of entanglement anywhere. But, in the event of a fall, I want to let that wheel get around 3 meters away from me before I arrest its progress with my bodyweight, and hopefully lead it to fall straight over on its side and stop in the shortest possible time. I DO want it to be somewhat elastic therefore, but not SO elastic that it fires the wheel back at me once we've all come to a sliding stop in the gravel ! I also want that tether to be strong enough to hold the whole 79 lb weight of the wheel, so that I can ride along-side drop offs and not worry about losing the wheel off the edge. (I'm not talking about 300 ft sheer drops here, but you know; the regular sort of park slopes we find).

I don't think I have seen anything that can sit at just over half a meter, yet stretch to 3m and maintain full strength while it's at it, so I have been considering knots ! Do we have any knot-smiths here who might be able to suggest the right rigging arrangement for a tether that sits short and (presumably) looped during normal riding, but can safely and reliably extend to a preset distance when one end of it is pulled suddenly, such as in a crash ?

Cheers guys for any input !

[Bizra6ot]

12 minutes ago, Cerbera said:

 

I don't think I have seen anything that can sit at just over half a meter, yet stretch to 3m and maintain full strength while it's at it

I have one that is in these dimensions it's a bodyboard leash which is shorter than the surf models and it's great because it doesn't interfere with the transition from standing to sitting

I don't understand the hype for the model like the one chance hinz has apart from being influenced   

[Mayhem]

Heres the issue I have with the whole leash idea. 
 
If you cut out which more often then not your going pretty damn fast. You now have a 70-120lb bolder attached to your body torpedoing in any given direction yanking your flailing body. Most likely causing more bodily harm to the rider. While MAYBE saving the wheel from total damage (most likely not) you have just caused yourself more physical maybe even permanent damage that wouldn’t have happened if you slid free and clear of the wheel. 
 

while it maybe a good idea to some people for a specific situation. I just don’t see more benefit coming from this vs the bad that can happen to the rider because of this. 
 

Edited October 10, 2022 by Mayhem

[Bizra6ot]

11 minutes ago, Mayhem said:

You now have a 70-120lb bolder attached to your body torpedoing in any given direction yanking your flailing body.
 

Lol unless you weigh 100lbs or less, I experienced several skids and pedal clipping at about 30mph and there was no traction from my 194lbs by my 80lbs wheel

[5Cauac]

The one that Chance uses (as do I) is the one by Cibi. It's not hype. They are rated for 4000lbs and will not tear like the Tow-Whe or other brands. These tethers are long but what we do is bunch up the excess and tape it up with electrical tape (wrapped two to three times).

In the event of a high speed crash (or a tumble down a steep cliff) the bungee will stretch but will be able to extend if needed at the taped end to further lessen the "drag/pull" force. 

[Spaghetteh]

20 minutes ago, Mayhem said:

I just don’t see more benefit coming from this vs the bad that can happen to the rider because of this. 

The main reason I would tether a wheel to myself would be to reduce my potential liability for harm or damage caused to bystanders. I choose to accept the risks when I ride; however, bystanders don't get to have that choice. I would much rather have the 75lbs torpedo that I just lost control of redirected towards myself rather than into some rando just going about their day.

That being said, I've talked to someone who tethers their wheels and they said they've gone down plenty of times with it and haven't had a problem with the wheel slamming into them. They said that all it really does is just force the wheel onto it's side where it can slide and lose energy a lot faster than if it were spinning and bouncing. For these reason I plan to keep a tether handy for when I'm riding anywhere that I could potentially cause property or bodily damage to bystanders.

[Mayhem]

53 minutes ago, Bizra6ot said:

Lol unless you weigh 100lbs or less, I experienced several skids and pedal clipping at about 30mph and there was no traction from my 194lbs by my 80lbs wheel

I could sit here and “what if” you death and come up with 100 different scenarios. That would simply be a waste of both our time.

It still doesn’t change the fact that you have now chosen to possibly put yourself the rider at greater risk by doing so in order to preserve an inanimate object that can be replaced. 

Edited October 10, 2022 by Mayhem

[Funky]

I also thought about tethering my wheel. My daily job route was riding beside lake. Also wheel mostly gets damaged/destroyed, because it goes off tumbling. Whit tether it would more or less simply fall on it's side and stop. But i gave up on that idea... Not worth the hassle of tethering the wheel each small ride.

I personally could give two ducks aboth hurting someone else. (Yeah i'm an asshole like that. I don't care about others. I'm dead inside. If i had an option of blowing this world up or world peace - guess my choice.)  I would be more worried that they will call police/sue my ass. And i will get into legal problems..

Edited October 10, 2022 by Funky

[Mayhem]

37 minutes ago, Spaghetteh said:

The main reason I would tether a wheel to myself would be to reduce my potential liability for harm or damage caused to bystanders. I choose to accept the risks when I ride; however, bystanders don't get to have that choice. I would much rather have the 75lbs torpedo that I just lost control of redirected towards myself rather than into some rando just going about their day.

That being said, I've talked to someone who tethers their wheels and they said they've gone down plenty of times with it and haven't had a problem with the wheel slamming into them. They said that all it really does is just force the wheel onto it's side where it can slide and lose energy a lot faster than if it were spinning and bouncing. For these reason I plan to keep a tether handy for when I'm riding anywhere that I could potentially cause property or bodily damage to bystanders.

I hear you, but a kill switch that made the wheel lose power and dump would also work to dissipate the energy. 
 

Now the bystanders that’s a whole other matter and I commend those who are thinking in this manner to help mitigate harm to any passer by. But if you’re in such a dense area then you shouldn’t be exhibiting such disregard for the public to begin with. Mind you I ride in NYC of all places. People everywhere but NOT once have I ever wanted to tether any of my wheels to myself. Not because “I don’t care if someone gets hurt.” But I’m way more likely to get clipped by an a-hole cab driver and then be DRAGGED by a bus because I’m tethered. 
 
It’s less of a hazard to just let the wheel go. 

Edited October 10, 2022 by Mayhem

[chanman]

9 minutes ago, Mayhem said:

a kill switch that made the wheel lose power and dump would also work to dissipate the energy.

A shutoff mechanism on the wheel that can be externally triggered while the wheel is in motion and upright is way crazier than a tether. Tethers can be attached with a breakaway mechanism that will detach for something like a bus taking the wheel with it but will provide some stopping force first.

[Mayhem]

6 minutes ago, chanman said:

A shutoff mechanism on the wheel that can be externally triggered while the wheel is in motion and upright is way crazier than a tether. Tethers can be attached with a breakaway mechanism that will detach for something like a bus taking the wheel with it but will provide some stopping force first.

Id rather the wheel take the dump and go its separate way. Then hope there’s enough force to break the teather attached to me that could potentially wrap around my foot or other body part keeping me attached. But that’s me. 

Edited October 10, 2022 by Mayhem

[chanman]

I think you're missing that the wheel doesn't really know whether you're on it or not. If you let if shut itself off for this there's nothing really stopping it just from dumping you randomly.

[Mayhem]

10 minutes ago, chanman said:

I think you're missing that the wheel doesn't really know whether you're on it or not. If you let if shut itself off for this there's nothing really stopping it just from dumping you randomly.

You’re the one activating the kill switch. As in your tether pulls out a magnet or a plug that kills the power as you’re falling off / jumping off… wheel not attached to your body via a tether but the tether is used to activate the kill switch.
 

not that you jump off and the “wheel knows”. I mean it can be done with some sort of pedal pressure sensor like a onewheel but those fail and I frankly wouldnt trust it either not to dump me randomly. 

Edited October 10, 2022 by Mayhem

[chanman]

Any hard kill switch like that is a major liability for riding around normally, you pull on the string funny by accident, whatever keeping the thing in place fails, anything really.

[5Cauac]

To be clear, I only use a tether when off-roading in steep cliff areas or racing events where there are bystanders/spectators along the path/track. No need for a tether in my normal or even usual trail rides. I don't bother for street riding. Unless it's some really twisty mountain roads I may think about it. 

Edited October 10, 2022 by 5Cauac

[Bizra6ot]

58 minutes ago, Mayhem said:

I could sit here and “what if” you death and come up with 100 different scenarios. That would simply be a waste of both our time.

It's not a matter of "what if or 100 scenarios" here i'm responding to what you specifically wrote that is wrong, from experiences and it's math a wheel of 1/3 your weight won't pull you whether on the ground or on a steep slope

[5Cauac]

16 minutes ago, Bizra6ot said:

It's not a matter of "what if or 100 scenarios" here i'm responding to what you specifically wrote that is wrong, from experiences and it's math a wheel of 1/3 your weight won't pull you whether on the ground or on a steep slope

or "fire back" at you...

[Mayhem]

51 minutes ago, chanman said:

Any hard kill switch like that is a major liability for riding around normally, you pull on the string funny by accident, whatever keeping the thing in place fails, anything really.

No different then everything else that can fail on a wheel at any given time. Result is the same you eat it 

[Mayhem]

44 minutes ago, Bizra6ot said:

It's not a matter of "what if or 100 scenarios" here i'm responding to what you specifically wrote that is wrong, from experiences and it's math a wheel of 1/3 your weight won't pull you whether on the ground or on a steep slope

1/3 your weight perhaps on your given wheel of choice. That doesn’t exqual the same equation for everyone other than you. 
 

also your forgetting it’s not dead stationary weight. It’s weight traveling at speed which creates more force while in motion. The direction of which may not be in the same direction the rider is falling in. 

Edited October 10, 2022 by Mayhem

[mrelwood]

5 hours ago, Spaghetteh said:

to reduce my potential liability for harm or damage caused to bystanders.

Your attitude is worthy to be applauded, but has anyone ever heard of a rogue EUC causing harm to a bystander? 'Cos I haven't.

[Cerbera]

4 hours ago, Bizra6ot said:

it's math a wheel of 1/3 your weight won't pull you whether on the ground or on a steep slope

For me that may be more of an issue - I am only 18 KG heavier than the Master I plan to tie myself to !

I am still thinking that the leash is a good plan, and the one @5Cauac mentioned looks great, but as others have suggested, possibly not all the time. Perhaps I will not need it for the daily shop run on cycle paths that I know every inch of, though there is a small amount of road-side pavement in that journey (don't want it running off into traffic), and a little bit of town centre later on, where it can be quite congested even though I try to go at non-peak times.

I like the electrical tape loop idea as well - much better than coming up with some elaborate complicated knot rig !

I am not massively persuaded that the fast traveling wheel is a danger to the rider in a tethered crash situation because of course both of us are going at the same speed, with similar momentum at the moment of crash, and the rider is going down anyway, and is armoured up to the nuts, so I am not sure it's any worse to land on a highly padded machine going at the same speed you were, than it would be to land on gravel or road surface that isn't ! But I may be wrong about that, and I wouldn't like to find out to the contrary via a spinning tyre to the face !!

I have also spoken to a couple people who always use a leash, and have crashed a lot, and say it doesn't make it worse, and indeed I I have even seen videos that seem to confirm this to a degree, although of course every single fall is different, and the circumstances are equally variable. I'm gonna give it a go, and we'll see how it does !

Thank you everyone for your thoughts...

Edited October 11, 2022 by Cerbera

[Cerbera]

58 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

our attitude is worthy to be applauded, but has anyone ever heard of a rogue EUC causing harm to a bystander? 'Cos I haven't

I've got a dent in the side of my own car caused by a recent crash and run-on by my MS3 at about 5 mph ! I think a kid's head might have dented as well, had it been unlucky enough to be in the way at the time ! At the very least it's gonna knock one over !

[Tawpie]

I wear a bunched up Towwhee leash (the bundle is tied with elastic shoe laces... reusable) when I'm on trails with steep drop-offs or water. Quick release buckle at the waist. I'm too lazy to drag a wheel back up the side of a mountain or carry it home after it goes swimming.

[mrelwood]

6 hours ago, Cerbera said:

I've got a dent in the side of my own car caused by a recent crash and run-on by my MS3 at about 5 mph ! I think a kid's head might have dented as well, had it been unlucky enough to be in the way at the time ! At the very least it's gonna knock one over !

Oh, it definitely would! The kinetic energy on a 30-50kg wheel is absolutely bonkers at the current riding speeds. It would be no problem at all to kill a human being if it hit just right.

My point was only about the probability, and the currently known rate of occurence. Just like a meteorite hitting your house would bankrupt you in a second, yet people don't build meteorite-proof shields or missile based defence systems on their backyard. And I would even guess that meteorites have destroyed more houses than rogue EUCs have harmed other people...

"But I don't want to be the first one!"  Yeah, I hear you.

Edited October 11, 2022 by mrelwood

[GothamMike]

A bike path along a lake or river? A leash make keep it from taking the plunge.