Sherman-S 3600wh: 100V, 20", suspension, 97lb

[KiwiMark]

1 hour ago, InfiniteWheelie said:

@mrelwood Are you sure there's a spring in each leg? I was under the impression that one leg had a spring for compression, and the other just did the damping. 

One leg has a valve (or whatever it is) for compression damping and the other has one for rebound damping. Thus the shocks dampen out the compression and the rebound so that the EUC doesn't move like a pogo stick would. So it the damping that is different on each leg, the spring in each leg will be the same as each other. Without the same spring in each leg there would be some really unbalanced forces and this would be a problem.

[InfiniteWheelie]

@KiwiMark Thanks, great explanation.

Edited February 1, 2023 by InfiniteWheelie

[techyiam]

58 minutes ago, KiwiMark said:

the spring in each leg will be the same as each other. Without the same spring in each leg there would be some really unbalanced forces and this would be a problem.

Have you adjusted the spring preload on both legs yet? When you turn the preload adjuster, you should be able to feel the spring pressure. 

[KiwiMark]

10 hours ago, techyiam said:

Have you adjusted the spring preload on both legs yet? When you turn the preload adjuster, you should be able to feel the spring pressure. 

Still haven't tried changing anything on the suspension, seems pretty nice just as was. I will play around with the settings at some point, but right now I just want to ride when I can and get a good feel for the wheel.

[MrMonoWheel]

I havent been on here or read the thread since the last post I made, but I am stopping by with some news. Today just like every other day I rode to class, wheel at 96v. No problems. I get to class and turn it off. Once done, I turn it on and it doesnt beep, I look at the screen and it says "NO CON" with all the LED segments on the display turned on like a debug mode (think when you first turn your car on and the whole dash lights up). I turned it back off, turned it on again and the entire wheel was reset. Odometer zeroed out, settings reset to factory, speed in KMH. No idea what caused this, and tbh I am kinda concerned that theres some bug in the code that hasn't been found. If it can hard reset whats stopping it from just turning off/resetting while in use, ya know? 

 

Oh yeah and my bearings are shot 

 

So it looks like its time to get in contact with GT King and see what they can do. I probably wont get bearings through them as I'd prefer to buy some high quality SKF bearings vs whatever stuff they use. As far as the reset bug, I am sure a firmware update could fix it. Hopefully its not a hardware issue.

Edited February 2, 2023 by MrMonoWheel

[Xeranos]

4 minutes ago, MrMonoWheel said:

I havent been on here or read the thread since the last post I made, but I am stopping by with some news. Today just like every other day I rode to class, wheel at 96v. No problems. I get to class and turn it off. Once done, I turn it on and it doesnt beep, I look at the screen and it says "NO COM" with all the LED segments on the display turned on like a debug mode (think when you first turn your car on and the whole dash lights up). I turned it back off, turned it on again and the entire wheel was reset. Odometer zeroed out, settings reset to factory, speed in KMH. No idea what caused this, and tbh I am kinda concerned that theres some bug in the code that hasn't been found. If it can hard reset whats stopping it from just turning off/resetting while in use, ya know? 

 

Oh yeah and my bearings are shot 

 

So it looks like its time to get in contact with GT King and see what they can do. I probably wont get bearings through them as I'd prefer to buy some high quality SKF bearings vs whatever stuff they use. As far as the reset bug, I am sure a firmware update could fix it. Hopefully its not a hardware issue.

No con? That's odd. I've had this a few times on my OG Sherman and on the MAX when the motherboard couldn't recognize the charging connector properly. Some kind of short circuit maybe? Regarding the bearings - I have heard that they are 1st batch issue. What batch do you have?

[techyiam]

20 minutes ago, MrMonoWheel said:

Oh yeah and my bearings are shot 

Oh no.

Can you provide more details? Any riding in the snow, or ice?

Edited February 2, 2023 by techyiam

[MrMonoWheel]

17 minutes ago, Xeranos said:

No con? That's odd. I've had this a few times on my OG Sherman and on the MAX when the motherboard couldn't recognize the charging connector properly. Some kind of short circuit maybe? Regarding the bearings - I have heard that they are 1st batch issue. What batch do you have?

Huh thats interesting. I sure hope its not a short circuit. The charging ports are both clear and dry, and the motherboard housing is well sealed with silicone. As far as the bearings, I am batch 1 so I'm not surprised it happened. Just unfortunate. Well, now my ownership log thread will include a full tutorial on how to replace bearings.

 

12 minutes ago, techyiam said:

Oh no.

Can you provide more details? Any riding in the snow, or ice?

Nope, I live in San Diego so the worst we have is a little rain and even then I didn't ride this wheel in the rain. A week ago I did do about 1 mile on the beach during low tide and thoroughly washed/dried the wheel when I got home. I'm sure this was probably what did it in despite having extra silicone grease protecting the bearings.

[techyiam]

15 minutes ago, MrMonoWheel said:

A week ago I did do about 1 mile on the beach during low tide and thoroughly washed/dried the wheel when I got home. I'm sure this was probably what did it in despite having extra silicone grease protecting the bearings.

Your bearings has an outer weather seal too, doesn't it? And even with more silicone grease on the outside.

Sorry to hear.

Thanks for sharing.

I think now I am going to relube my Abrams with marine grease inside the bearings. 

[MrMonoWheel]

1 minute ago, techyiam said:

Your bearings has an outer weather seal too, doesn't it? And even with more silicone grease on the outside.

Sorry to hear.

Thanks for sharing.

I think now I am going to relube my Abrams with marine grease inside the bearings. 

Yep it has an outer seal as well as added silicone grease that I put in.

[techyiam]

 

15 hours ago, techyiam said:

What makes it a true hydraulic suspension shock?

 

14 hours ago, GHOSTTE said:

There is no coil-over like the KS S22 and there is no air to pump like the IM V13, existing suspension Begodes, etc

I see.

Interesting. 

But you may have a fair point.

 

Dampers or shocks used in vehicles typically use oil as the working fluid, hence their proper names for these devices are hydraulic dampers and hydraulic shocks, respectively.

Typically cars use control arms or mult-links in their suspensions to locate the wheels. Shocks and springs don't control the motion trajectory of the wheel, the links or control arms do.

However, for motorcycles and suspension bicycles, conventional front suspension forks are the suspension for the front, but are the springs and dampers as well. All in one unit. There are no swingarm, links or control arms, at least for what we are discussing. 

Electric wheels such as the Sherman-S, has suspension similar to a front suspension fork, but it is hardly appropriate to call them as such, since there is no steering nor a second wheel in tandem. As for electric wheels, the legs themselves also form the suspension, and are the shocks and springs as well. And some suspension forks use air springs as oppose to coil springs. Therefore, it is not unreasonable to call the Sherman-S units "hydraulic suspension shocks, since they have the coil springs, and this would differentiate them from air spring types. After all, it is no worse than calling them front suspension fork thingies. 🙂

The hydraulic suspension reference used for cars don't apply since there are no electric wheels that use hydraulic or pneumatic actuators to raise or lower the ride height on the fly. So there is no confusion here. In cars, the terms hydraulic suspension and air suspension are not technically correct. The suspension is made up of control arms, or links. The differentiation is for the type of fluid used in the actuators, not the suspension. But it was easy to say, and the differentiation was understood. 

[Planemo]

I think you win the prize for the most amount of contradictions and confusion in one post.

[mrelwood]

7 hours ago, techyiam said:

Therefore, it is not unreasonable to call the Sherman-S units "hydraulic suspension shocks, since they have the coil springs, and this would differentiate them from air spring types.

If coil spring vs air spring is the differentiator and both have a similar hydraulic damping mechanism, how come the coil is called hydraulic but the air isn’t? When both hands have fingers, it makes no sense calling the left one the fingery hand and the right one just a hand.

 Some clearly think that the ShermS suspension is so good because it has this new hydraulic suspension technology that no other EUCs has.

If the ShermS suspension would be called a hydraulic suspension, then other EUCs (expect V11) have a hydraulic suspension as well. So even then being hydraulic would be nothing new. What’s new is the layout.

[techyiam]

1 hour ago, mrelwood said:

If coil spring vs air spring is the differentiator and both have a similar hydraulic damping mechanism, how come the coil is called hydraulic but the air isn’t? When both hands have fingers, it makes no sense calling the left one the fingery hand and the right one just a hand.

For cars, the main structural components of a suspension is comprised of control arms or links. The wheel's path of motion is controlled by these components. There nothing hydraulic or pneumatic about it. Yet they call it a hydraulic suspension if the lift system uses hydraulic actuators, and air suspension if the actuator uses air.

Let's face it, no suspension is hydraulic or pneumatic. The damper or shock is hydraulic. And the spring can be coil spring or air spring (or torsional spring in the early Chrysler cars). For those cars that have the real time control lift system, the actuators can be hydraulic or pneumatic. Yet people use the terms hydraulic suspension and air suspension. All suspension use hydraulic dampers.

It is just an easy way to differentiate the two.

1 hour ago, mrelwood said:

If the ShermS suspension would be called a hydraulic suspension, then other EUCs (expect V11) have a hydraulic suspension as well. So even then being hydraulic would be nothing new. What’s new is the layout.

Big difference. If you remove the dampers (shocks) from a V13, the wheel's path of motion is still controlled. If you remove the dampers, or spring from a Sherman-S, the suspension is gone. The wheel is no longer attached to the chassis. Hence, each leg of the Sherman-S is both suspension and shock, just like a front suspension fork. It is all or nothing. 

What would you call the legs of a Sherman-S? I would say hydraulic suspension shock, or hydraulic suspension strut is reasonable. Of course I prefer the latter, but the layman may not.

Edited February 2, 2023 by techyiam

[Freeforester]

12 minutes ago, techyiam said:

What would you call the legs of a Sherman-S?

The suspension system.
 

In truth, I don’t watch much television. Not because I don’t know how to turn it on and off, but rather due to the banality of most of its programme content; nor tbh am I too much interested in the electrical engineering behind how the thing works, I just know and trust that the manufacturer has done his thing well enough to convince the buyer that they’ve made a good or great TV. Same for my Sherman S on its way. I’m guessing that ignorance will be fairly blissful, in terms of ride quality. But it’s great to think there are clever people who understand wholly the mechanisms which make it so, even though I don’t personally count myself in that category, as I have a life outside EUC’s, believe it or not.

Greetings from above Kitzbühel, Austria. Roll on the spring and the EUC riding season!

BTW, in English we call it a (suspension) ‘strut’, and not a struct - this latter word may be an abbreviated form of ‘structure’, I don’t know.

Edited February 2, 2023 by Freeforester

[techyiam]

29 minutes ago, Freeforester said:

a (suspension) ‘strut’, and not a struct

Thank you.

I stand corrected.

C programming influence got the better of me. 

In my mind, I say strut, but my my fingers type out struct. Interesting. Too many years.

[mrelwood]

1 hour ago, techyiam said:

For cars, the main structural components of a suspension is comprised of control arms or links. The wheel's path of motion is controlled by these components. There nothing hydraulic or pneumatic about it.

Main structural component, sure. The main structural material of a nuclear power plant is concrete. But they don’t call it a concrete power plant.

1 hour ago, techyiam said:

Yet they call it a hydraulic suspension if the lift system uses hydraulic actuators, and air suspension if the actuator uses air.

Makes sense. They are called by the main operational differentiator.

1 hour ago, techyiam said:

Let's face it, no suspension is hydraulic or pneumatic. The damper or shock is hydraulic.

Some luxury cars, old Citroëns, larger work vehicles and military vehicle do indeed use a hydraulic suspension, where the hydraulics are not limited to the shock absorber but it also carries the weight of the vehicle. And many cars have an air suspension, where the car is held up by air pressure alone.

 Suspension is what suspends an object’s travel, usually vertically. The element or part that the travel is suspended by is the functional core element of the suspension. “Suspended by _____.”

 

1 hour ago, techyiam said:

It is just an easy way to differentiate the two.

Exactly, by calling them by the differentiator. S22 has a coil based suspension, most others have air. All of them have a hydraulic damper. In the ShermS suspension “hydraulic” is not the differentiator. Coil is.

1 hour ago, techyiam said:

Big difference. If you remove the dampers (shocks) from a V13, the wheel's path of motion is still controlled.

Sure. On the ShermS the spring, damper and slider are all in one unit. It is a new layout for EUC suspension, and so far it seems that it works really well. But each main component (coil spring, oil damper, and sliders) of the ShermS suspension is available in the S22 suspension as well, only separated to individual components.
 

My point in all this is that there’s nothing in the ShermS suspension that makes it any more hydraulic than the others (except V11). Yes it’s new, and yes it works great, and yes it will be copied many times over in the future. But being hydraulic is not what’s new. If it’s a hydraulic shock, so are all others (except V11).

I’ve never heard anyone call a coil spring suspension a “hydraulic suspension” before, and since there have been actual hydraulic suspension systems without coil springs available since something like the 60’s, it wouldn’t make much sense to do so either.

 

1 hour ago, techyiam said:

What would you call the legs of a Sherman-S?

Integrated suspension systems. Or just Sherman S’s suspension.

1 hour ago, techyiam said:

I would say hydraulic suspension shock, or hydraulic suspension strut is reasonable.

The term strut generally includes the spring, but a shock absorber or a shock does not. The ShermS suspension does, so a suspension strut does make sense.

[MrMonoWheel]

Are you guys still debating the semantics behind the suspension system? Damn go out and ride 😂

[Planemo]

9 hours ago, techyiam said:

What would you call the legs of a Sherman-S? I would say hydraulic suspension shock

Coil forks.

It's pointless trying to describe a particular suspension as 'hydraulic' because by default that means oil is involved (usually in the damping circuits) which just about every shock has. I'm not including true hydro systems in that statement like Citroen used because they are an oddity, not the norm.

Nobody, ever, calls MTB forks 'hydraulic suspension shock'. For good reason. They are either air or coil. Simple. Both use oil for damping so it's futile using that as a descriptor.

 

[dycus]

4 hours ago, MrMonoWheel said:

Are you guys still debating the semantics behind the suspension system? Damn go out and ride 😂

[Planemo]

5 hours ago, MrMonoWheel said:

Are you guys still debating the semantics behind the suspension system? Damn go out and ride 😂

Way too cold for me, and I don't have a wheel at the moment anyway 

[InfiniteWheelie]

To reiterate what others have said…

Look at the off-road bicycle world, The suspension is called either coil or air. Both have hydraulic damping.

So we’d call this a “coil fork” type suspension. The 2 individual pieces can just be called left/right forks, or legs (not really important).

Incorrectly calling it hydraulic will confuse people. I too have seen people saying it has some special new hydraulic suspension, which is just incorrect.

The fork format is what’s new for e-wheels, that’s all. It works no differently than the S22 suspension, a steel coil with hydraulic damping. The coil is just placed inside the tube instead of outside (and there are 2 big tubes instead of 1 small). Same working principal though.

Edited February 5, 2023 by InfiniteWheelie

[Clem604]

There is a new pedal avaliable for the Sherman S. 

https://a.aliexpress.com/_mtKXaGa

[wstuart]

12 minutes ago, Clem604 said:

There is a new pedal avaliable for the Sherman S. 

https://a.aliexpress.com/_mtKXaGa

Dang...... I bought these - I had to.  I feel much more comfortable with pedals that are wider at the front. 

[Clem604]

31 minutes ago, wstuart said:

Dang...... I bought these - I had to.  I feel much more comfortable with pedals that are wider at the front. 

Yeah I've just bought the other ones (the same ones you currently have) yesterday but I would've considered these had I just waited another day

Edited February 2, 2023 by Clem604