Sherman-S 3600wh: 100V, 20", suspension, 97lb

[Paul A]

Veteran Sherman-S. First impressions.

EcoDrift.ru

Dec 11, 2022

 

 

[Freeforester]

1 hour ago, mrelwood said:

 

Just like we’ve often seen firmware upgrades improve acceleration and braking, the exact behavior of the acceleration and braking response is what differs enough to give different braking results.

 Even in hard mode, the wheels don’t usually stay perfectly level at all times. Like @techyiam posted above, a medium mode brakes noticeably faster. Manufacturers seem to try to design the hard mode in a way that feels solid but has a certain give in to help with braking and acceleration. On a Gotgode the rocking is pretty easy to feel, but it’s called “The GotWay glide” that some people like.

 Inmotion is the only manufacturer that lets the user adjust the pedal response in a detailed manner. This also makes braking comparisons pointless unless it’s done with various pedal sensitivity and power assist settings. We already know that a medium mode brakes faster, just like we know that a smaller tire diameter brakes faster. V13 can benefit greatly from the adjustments, but I don’t think it will still be comparable to a 18/20” wheel, unless the pedal responses are adjusted fully in V13’s favor.

More fundamentally, and tech aspects apart, the mass of both rider and wheel combined will have a ‘basic laws of physics’-type influence on the outcome, also the ‘lightweight rider:heavy wheel’ ratio, which might mean that whilst a heavier rider will have more all up moving mass to decelerate, he may be better placed to do so than the lighter rider atop the same heavy wheel.     A ‘side by side by side’ braking test would also be interesting for the community, in due course, though even as a relatively ‘fuller figured’ rider (102kg, 185cm/6ft 1”) I’m aware of the greater input required to slow/stop my Sherman v the MSP, there being 10kilo more to slow/stop with the former compared to the latter. I’m all for the tech aspects assisting in this, but also feel a basic awareness of what is required helps (ie the earlier anticipation and application of said braking pressures to overcome the increased mass).    A modicum of sound technique is of course going to be a prerequisite attribute, along with a safe space to learn of and practice these adjustments before venturing out among the other road/space users is a definite advantage.

[Tasku]

8 hours ago, techyiam said:

he did mentioned braking was underwhelming.

The power of wheel works both ways. If acceleration is good then should braking too but..

8 hours ago, InfiniteWheelie said:

Surely better pads and technique are the solution. 

This seems to be fix people use. It is somewhat not comfortable stance leaning back hard. Pads change that as there is something to lean into. So for most, yes pads let em brake harder. This does(or could) bring em wobbles too tho but that is another topic.

----

People also fix this with pedal angle. If pedal angle is +2~% forward accelerations would be easier, braking weird. Turn it other way around and braking is easier and acceleration need more weight to it.

6 hours ago, mrelwood said:

This also makes braking comparisons pointless unless it’s done with various pedal sensitivity and power assist settings. We already know that a medium mode brakes faster, just like we know that a smaller tire diameter brakes faster.

And lets not forget that the faster you go the longer it takes to get to full stop. So most of the time when people can complain about "does not break soo fast" they might have simply gone faster than normally would. The wheels also have different weight distribution and that can cause new rider to that particular wheel feel like he is not customed to it as much as his regular ride, that he is fully tuned in. 

That said I usually think that these statements of "braking not good" is lil bit nonsense, just a rider not getting used to the wheel. When Mr. Wrongway braked harder than a scooter did, that was impressive. These wheels we talk about, have more brake power than previously available, if you know how to use it.

[Paul A]

Veteran Sherman-S high speed mode

EUC Serbia

2.22K subscribers

Dec 11, 2022

 

 

 

[Alexutlang]

On 12/10/2022 at 6:37 AM, UPONIT said:

It is IMPRESSIVELY stable. And judging from the shadows, he was standing, not seated.

It could've been a camera exaggeration, but what happened at around 25 seconds? Nail biter...

Is it inherently safer to ride the beeps like that on a LeaperKim wheel than others?

Since OG sherman I based my top speed on free spin. I just minus 15-20kph from lift spin speed. So far it works for me. It was windy (headwind) when tried it so I didn't pushed passed 90kph. Leaperkim wheels beeps earlier than begode. You watch my videos from OG sherman to sherman max I usually ride past 10kph after the beeps. The experts suggest to use PWM. I'll stick to what works for me. 89kph is not gps speed to be clear and I will never use GPS speed on euc since again I based my top speed on free spin and on the screen

[mrelwood]

9 hours ago, Freeforester said:

the mass of both rider and wheel combined will have a ‘basic laws of physics’-type influence on the outcome

Laws of physics dictate that it takes more energy to stop a heavier wheel. But since the wheel is self-balancing, I don’t see how it’s own weight has much of a part in the equation.

 For a certain amount of deceleration, in order for the rider to stay upright the rider must put their CoG back a certain amount. This is true whether one is braking with a Ninebot One S2 or standing on a slowing train.

Or if you’re balancing a broomstick vertically on your hand. No matter how heavy your hand is, in order for the broomstick to stay up, you must accelerate your hand at a certain rate when the broomstick starts to fall.

[BKW]

I just watched the review of the v13 with Kuji, and I think this wheel is now ruled-out for me when comparing the the Sherman-S and BCP. Considering how the BCP will likely be less a quality product as the Sherman-S as far as suspension and other aspects, I think the Sherman-S will be the best overall. My huntch is that the BCP will be awesome for 134v but that'll be the only thing that is "better" than the Sherman-S. The suspension likely will not be as quality, nor the construction, and begode is known for issues as well. I'm holding out my purchases until February or March 2023, so by that time I'll have a very clear understanding.

[Freeforester]

2 hours ago, mrelwood said:

Laws of physics dictate that it takes more energy to stop a heavier wheel. But since the wheel is self-balancing, I don’t see how it’s own weight has much of a part in the equation.

 For a certain amount of deceleration, in order for the rider to stay upright the rider must put their CoG back a certain amount. This is true whether one is braking with a Ninebot One S2 or standing on a slowing train.

Or if you’re balancing a broomstick vertically on your hand. No matter how heavy your hand is, in order for the broomstick to stay up, you must accelerate your hand at a certain rate when the broomstick starts to fall.

I’m no mathematician, but might not the mass of the heavier wheel travelling at a certain speed require rather more input from the rider to come to a stop when compared to the mass of a lighter weight wheel travelling at the same speed with the same rider weight?  A given (heavier)weight wheel travelling at a fixed speed must surely require more force by the rider to halt its progress than a lighter one? Or is this just a mistaken perception?
 

I have always imagined too that it would (in my non-mathematical mind) therefore take the same amount of ‘effort’ to exert said decelerating force by a lighter rider than a heavier one, when the wheel being ridden is the same heavy wheel,  but that ‘effort’ comes naturally easier to the heavier rider by dint of their greater mass exerting the ‘decelerating power’ (braking) more readily?  🤔😳🤔

[MrMonoWheel]

Yep I just watched the video as well and I am 100% set on the Sherman S now. Im glad I already have one on the way. The V13 hasnt shipped yet so I will be cancelling my pre order. You can see my full thoughts in that thread.

[Crab]

Kuji did say it takes a lot more effort to maneuver it, understandably so at that size and weight!

[BKW]

12 minutes ago, MrMonoWheel said:

Yep I just watched the video as well and I am 100% set on the Sherman S now. Im glad I already have one on the way. The V13 hasnt shipped yet so I will be cancelling my pre order. You can see my full thoughts in that thread.

The only thing that really stands out with the V13 is the safety margin but I'm not worried about the Sherman-S safety...begode? yes.

[alex5454]

Hi guys, i think the inmotion v13 will really be a fantastic wheel best display in the category ..fastest speed with big safety margin waterproofing ...wins on all fields ..except on one the battery is too small 3K WH for that engine will optimistically have a range of under 100km with not too aggressive use.

[Jon Wall]

As skilled as kuji is, you can tell it takes some effort to muscle it around. I stand by my anitial thoughts. This wheel is better suited for riders well over 200 pounds 

[KiwiMark]

If I could own any 5 EUCs then I would probably choose the V13 as one of them.

If I could only own 1 EUC then the V13 would not be my choice.  There is no way I would choose a 50kg wheel as my only wheel or a 22" wheel as my only wheel.

If I could only own 1 EUC then I would have to compromise to some degree, I'd have to accept more weight (not 50kg) to have decent speed & range.  My choice would be the Sherman-S.  The Sherman-S is a bit on the heavy side, but I could manage that - other than that weight it ticks all the boxes for me.  I just can't think of another wheel that fits as many of my use cases as the Sherman-S does.

[Crab]

I’m probably going to agree with you on the Sherman-s, I do wish it was a bit lighter however if that was even possible.

[UPONIT]

1 hour ago, KiwiMark said:

There is no way I would choose a 50kg wheel as my only wheel.

My choice would be the Sherman-S.  The Sherman-S is a bit on the heavy side, but I could manage that -

V13 weighs only 13 lbs more than Sherman-S.

13% increase.

Gallon and a half of milk. Bowling ball. Gallon of paint. A Dachshund. Half of an Mten4...

 

[Mango]

1 hour ago, KiwiMark said:

f I could only own 1 EUC then I would have to compromise to some degree, I'd have to accept more weight (not 50kg) to have decent speed & range.  My choice would be the Sherman-S.  The Sherman-S is a bit on the heavy side, but I could manage that - other than that weight it ticks all the boxes for me.  I just can't think of another wheel that fits as many of my use cases as the Sherman-S does.

If I could own (and I do) any one euc, it would be the Begode T4.

[MrMonoWheel]

3 hours ago, KiwiMark said:

If I could own any 5 EUCs then I would probably choose the V13 as one of them.

If I could only own 1 EUC then the V13 would not be my choice.  There is no way I would choose a 50kg wheel as my only wheel or a 22" wheel as my only wheel.

If I could only own 1 EUC then I would have to compromise to some degree, I'd have to accept more weight (not 50kg) to have decent speed & range.  My choice would be the Sherman-S.  The Sherman-S is a bit on the heavy side, but I could manage that - other than that weight it ticks all the boxes for me.  I just can't think of another wheel that fits as many of my use cases as the Sherman-S does.

Totally agree. If I had the money and space for multiple wheels the V13 would definitely be amongst them for a stable reliable cruiser. But as it stands I can only have 1 wheel, maybe 2 if I keep my V11. And the sherman ticks most of those boxes for me. I wish it had PWM tiltback and a smart BMS but for the price I paid I am more than satisfied. Its a shame, I was genuinely very excited for the V13 but ever since that post showing the V11-esq suspension it killed it for me.

[InfiniteWheelie]

On 12/10/2022 at 11:06 PM, techyiam said:

@InfiniteWheelie

How are you liking your Abrams?

Are you using firmware version 2.0.015, the latest firmware?

Which pedal mode are you using:

(1) Soft

(2) Medium 

(3) Hard

I found that with the latest firmware, my Abrams stops significantly quicker in Medium mode, for the same pad setup, technique, and effort.

I really like it, but the only problem is the top is too wide. I have to do a mix of turned out feet, standing on the outer half of the pedals, and riding without gripping the sides with my legs (a looser riding style relying on my aftermarket pads instead). This makes the wheel bearable, plus I'll be getting a seat to give my inner legs a rest. Overall I can deal with it.

I'm not sure what firmware version, but I'm pretty sure it's the latest. I'll check later because my wheel is apart right now for waterproofing.

I've only ridden hard mode so far. I tend to prefer hard mode, but have used medium a fair bit too on my Sherman. I find the breaking to be fine with my aftermarket pads. I simply reach down and pull on the bar to brake harder. I'll probably try out medium mode too because that extra slack should make braking easier.

Another thing I noticed is the motor is way quieter than early reviews I watched. I remember it groaning like crazy when taking off (there was talk of a square wave controller) but mine is very quiet. The motor actually feels noticeably smoother than my Sherman somehow, which I really like.

It also does this cool thing when standing still on wheel (while holding a post or whatever). If you move a tiny amount forward or back you notice these little individual pings, like haptic feedback on a phone. It's the motor cogging or whatever but it's kind of satisfying.

Edited December 12, 2022 by InfiniteWheelie

[mrelwood]

11 hours ago, Freeforester said:

I’m no mathematician, but might not the mass of the heavier wheel travelling at a certain speed require rather more input from the rider to come to a stop when compared to the mass of a lighter weight wheel travelling at the same speed with the same rider weight?

I’m no mathematician or a physicist either, but I can’t see how the weight of the wheel would matter. It doesn’t take more effort to press the gas pedal on a heavy car either. And riders often say that you don’t feel the weight of a heavier wheel while riding.

The EUC self-balancing process goes like this:

 Rider starts to fall forward by gravity which exerts a downward force at the front of the pedals that tilts the shell forward. Wheel firmware is programmed to accelerate if the shell tilts forward. It accelerates fast enough for the shell to remain almost perfectly vertical. Once there’s no pressure at the front of the pedals, acceleration stops.

At no point does the wheel’s weight come into play.

11 hours ago, Freeforester said:

A given (heavier)weight wheel travelling at a fixed speed must surely require more force by the rider to halt its progress than a lighter one? Or is this just a mistaken perception?

I believe the thought process to be easily tricked. The rider isn’t halting the wheel’s progress. The rider is only controlling one’s posture to take control the self-balancing process. Gravity on the rider is the main force that causes the wheels to accelerate and brake, but there is no place for the wheel’s weight in the equation.

11 hours ago, Freeforester said:

I have always imagined too that it would (in my non-mathematical mind) therefore take the same amount of ‘effort’ to exert said decelerating force by a lighter rider than a heavier one when the wheel being ridden is the same heavy wheel,  but that ‘effort’ comes naturally easier to the heavier rider by dint of their greater mass

If an effort comes easier, isn’t it then a lesser amount of effort? 

A heavier rider exerts more force to tilt the wheel forward, so they require less effort to accelerate and brake. A fly landing at the front end of the pedals doesn’t make the wheel accelerate.

But the acceleration and braking processes are indeed self-balancing, so a snapshot of forces at any given time is not enough to determine the rate of acceleration/deceleration.

 Should we continue the discussion under a more appropriate thread?

Edited December 12, 2022 by mrelwood

[MrMonoWheel]

Id imagine that the weight of the wheel definitely affects the battery life. On the V13, the motor itself is a heavy son of a bitch with a ton of inertia, requiring more power to get it rotating. It's true that if the rider leans forward the center of gravity is forward making the wheel accelerate, but having a heavier motor will take more juice to accelerate it fast enough to keep up with the riders lean.

Edited December 12, 2022 by MrMonoWheel

[mrelwood]

13 minutes ago, MrMonoWheel said:

Id imagine that the weight of the wheel definitely affects the battery life.

Absolutely, very directly. That’s where the extra required energy comes from, not from the rider.

[MrMonoWheel]

1 minute ago, mrelwood said:

Absolutely, very directly. That’s where the extra required energy comes from, not from the rider.

Oh I totally didn't realize we were talking about rider weight. In that case I'd imagine rider weight takes its toll on inclines and ever so slightly the increased rolling resistance.

[mrelwood]

1 minute ago, MrMonoWheel said:

Oh I totally didn't realize we were talking about rider weight. In that case I'd imagine rider weight takes its toll on inclines and ever so slightly the increased rolling resistance.

Sorry, I was unclear. I meant that the extra energy required to stop a heavy wheel comes from the battery, and not from the rider’s actions. Referring to the above discussion with @Freeforester.

[Freeforester]

2 hours ago, mrelwood said:

I’m no mathematician or a physicist either, but I can’t see how the weight of the wheel would matter. It doesn’t take more effort to press the gas pedal on a heavy car either. And riders often say that you don’t feel the weight of a heavier wheel while riding.

The EUC self-balancing process goes like this:

 Rider starts to fall forward by gravity which exerts a downward force at the front of the pedals that tilts the shell forward. Wheel firmware is programmed to accelerate if the shell tilts forward. It accelerates fast enough for the shell to remain almost perfectly vertical. Once there’s no pressure at the front of the pedals, acceleration stops.

At no point does the wheel’s weight come into play.

I believe the thought process to be easily tricked. The rider isn’t halting the wheel’s progress. The rider is only controlling one’s posture to take control the self-balancing process. Gravity on the rider is the main force that causes the wheels to accelerate and brake, but there is no place for the wheel’s weight in the equation.

If an effort comes easier, isn’t it then a lesser amount of effort? 

A heavier rider exerts more force to tilt the wheel forward, so they require less effort to accelerate and brake. A fly landing at the front end of the pedals doesn’t make the wheel accelerate.

But the acceleration and braking processes are indeed self-balancing, so a snapshot of forces at any given time is not enough to determine the rate of acceleration/deceleration.

 Should we continue the discussion under a more appropriate thread?

We can, I’m struggling to imagine that a lighter rider can slow a wheel by the same amount of braking input as a heavier one, being both say, on a heavier than average wheel, but I do indeed get the idea that it’s the motor which does the actual braking, it’s the inertia/momentum bit that is causing me a bit of reticence, I have it in my mind that a heavier wheel rolling (rider atop or otherwise) carries more momentum than a lighter one? This momentum takes more effort to slow to a stop for both riders equally, but my feeling is that a lighter weight  rider is obliged to make his effort to brake with less body mass on hand than is the case with a heavier rider, the perception there being that it may feel that he is having to make more effort in slowing the heavier wheel, proportionate to his/her body weight?  Please feel free to export this to an appropriate thread, and apologies for derailing whilst getting myself bogged down here, and thanks to Mrelwood for offering me a helping hand out of the quagmire!