Inmotion V13 Speculation

[Paul A]

1 hour ago, MrMonoWheel said:

uses the same plastic-slider-on-rail design as the V11, a system that (in my experience) very quickly gets dirty and stiff, not to mention the inevitable clunking when the sliders wear.

 

Yes.  

A review might not uncover the problems that will become apparent over time. 

And if a problem exists in the same designed suspension of the V11, it seems reasonable to expect the same in the V13.

 

The CNC sliders retrofit solution for the S22 is still to pass the test of time.  

A video showing how to replace the wheels on them, infers that they can break.

Wheels that appear to be used for sliding drawers, shower doors......repurposed as sliders for an EUC.

 

Early adopters will be the guinea pigs.

 

 

Edited December 12, 2022 by Paul A

[Tawpie]

1 hour ago, Paul A said:

infers that they can break.

This is true... evidently if you have a void in the POM 'tire' part, it can break. Be sure to candle your little wheels before installation!

[mrelwood]

11 hours ago, MrMonoWheel said:

Alright I just watched the video, and I have to say I'm pretty damn disappointed.

Maybe you haven’t watched Kuji’s reviews much. That’s just how they are. The S18 one for example, zero mentions on the clearly underpowered battery that should be more than blatantly obvious for a rider like Kuji. But he was co-designing the S18 sidepads, so I don’t think anyone even expected a critical non-biased review.

 Also, this was only the third EUC video Kuji has made in 2.5 years, so he clearly hasn’t wanted to be in the game lately. Even if he would’ve used to be more critical or enthusiastic, surely one’s tone is expected to change a bit in such a long time.

11 hours ago, MrMonoWheel said:

This didn't really show us anything we didn't already know about the wheel

What did you expect, a teardown? All the specs and functionalities of the wheel have been clearly demonstrated by Inmotion themselves at the time of the launch. Expecting a review to reveal new info doesn’t sound realistic. A review presents opinions, and I felt that that’s what we got.

11 hours ago, MrMonoWheel said:

The most critical thing he said was that its a bit heavy

“A bit heavy”… You know, that might’ve just revealed how your interpretation of the video’s attitude might be “a bit” off. He actually literally said that “Picking it up is absolutely horrendous.”

11 hours ago, MrMonoWheel said:

However this particular wheel is not for me. Mainly due to the suspension, size, and weight.

Me neither, for exactly the same reasons. But the suspension design, size and weight were already known since like half a year ago, how come you are only now cancelling your order? Did Kuji’s review reveal something that critical after all?

11 hours ago, MrMonoWheel said:

Maybe in a year or two inmotion will make a smaller wheel with these added features and finally upgrade their suspension. Then I will be back.

I’ve been waiting for the exact same thing ever since the weight of the V13 was announced.

 

11 hours ago, EUC_user said:

Upper chamber adjustment is achieved via a rotating/turning adjustment and not by adding or removing air.

No, there is no “upper chamber adjustment”, or even an upper chamber valve. The air spring is pumped from the bottom, and has an automatic negative chamber pressure equalization. What’s adjusted from the top is the separate damper’s (compression and?) rebound rate.

 

9 hours ago, Robse said:

Kuji doesn't seem to have fun at all.

Now that you said it, I don’t think I’ve ever seen Kuji smile. That’s just how he is in his videos.

[Freeforester]

3 hours ago, NSFW said:

EUC is an initialism - you pronounce the initial letter of each word.

Acronyms are pronounced as a word, like "scuba" for example. (self-contained underwater breathing apparatus)

 

A little addenda from the pages of mr Wiki:

Acronyms can be pronounced as words, like NASA and UNESCO; as individual letters, like FBI, TNT, and ATM; or as both letters and words, like JPEG (pronounced JAY-peg) and IUPAC. Some are not universally pronounced one way or the other and it depends on the speaker's preference or the context in which it is being used, such as SQL (either "sequel" or "ess-cue-el").

The broader sense of acronym—the meaning of which includes terms pronounced as letters—is sometimes criticized, but it is the term's original meaning^[1] and is in common use.^[2] Dictionary and style-guide editors are not in universal agreement on the naming for such abbreviations, and it is a matter of some dispute whether the term acronym can be legitimately applied to abbreviations which are not pronounced "as words", nor do these language authorities agree on the correct use of spacing, casing, and punctuation.

Abbreviations formed from a string of initials and usually pronounced as individual letters are sometimes more specifically called initialisms^[3] or alphabetisms; examples are FBI from Federal Bureau of Investigation, and e.g. from Latin exempli gratia.

Well, I didn’t realise I’d been riding an alphabetism/initialisation all this time - FFS 🤣

Edited December 12, 2022 by Freeforester

[UPONIT]

4 hours ago, Freeforester said:

 If EUC isn’t an acronym, then wtf is it, lol?

If you pronounce it "EE YOU SEE," it is an initialism. If you pronounce it "YUKE," it is a pseudo-acronym.

Spoiler

Initialism: first letter of each word. (USA, FBI, CIA). If the result is pronounced as a whole word, it's also an acronym (LASER, POTUS, FOMO). If other than first letters are used, it's a pseudo-acronym (RADAR, EUC).

I figured EUC was chosen because the acronym of Electric Unicycle would be "EU" (and how could THAT possibly cause confusion?)

 

3 hours ago, MrMonoWheel said:

However my problem is mainly with the fact that is uses the same plastic-slider-on-rail design as the V11,

I totally understand your concern about the V11 suspension design. Has it been confirmed somewhere that the "slider on a rail system" of the V13 has not been somehow improved? It would be a shame (and surprising?) if they didn't even try to make it better...

Or are you saying "slider on a rail" of ANY sort is just a POS concept?

2 hours ago, NSFW said:

EUC is an initialism - you pronounce the initial letter of each word.

Acronyms are pronounced as a word, like "scuba" for example. (self-contained underwater breathing apparatus)

 

[Freeforester]

Yep, divided by a common language!

[mlau]

22 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

Now that you said it, I don’t think I’ve ever seen Kuji smile. That’s just how he is in his videos.

Well, compared to his previous review of the Master, he seemed a bit more bored, and like he was ticking off
boxes of the "Kuji-type review".  That's why it felt off to me.
But maybe that's just how this wheel is, exactly as advertised: powerfull, heavy, pricey, dull, and does its job well.
Like a Mercedes S-class, it's boring to look at, but does what it was built to do exceptionally well: glide over roads.

[InfiniteWheelie]

I want to point out that in the review (15:47) he introduced the device to a passerby as an "electric wheel" according to the subtitles.

That's absolutely my preferred name, (short versions being "e-wheel" and "wheel"). That's all I'll say here since I don't want to derail, but it came up in the video and other people were already on the topic. I'll continue further discussion in the naming thread.

Edited December 12, 2022 by InfiniteWheelie

[HEC]

15 hours ago, Paul A said:

Which Aliexpress store is it?

EXTREMETECH Store

/store/912691031

[UPONIT]

45 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

No, there is no “upper chamber adjustment”, or even an upper chamber valve. The air spring is pumped from the bottom, and has an automatic negative chamber pressure equalization. What’s adjusted from the top is the separate damper’s (compression and?) rebound rate.

Wait. Now I'm re-confused. Yes, there is a separate air spring and damper on each side. And Kuji demonstrates that the damper is adjusted from the top with a tool .

1) What is "automatic negative chamber pressure equalization" in the air spring of the V13? Wasn't that known as "damping" in the V11? Why would it still be needed when there's a separate damper?

2) The separate damper in the V13 is adjusted via a tool rather than p.s.i. changes, right? So what is the mechanism of the damper? 

A lot is riding (HA!) on the suspension of this wheel. I can't imagine InMotion just copy/pasted the V11 and said "Eh, that's good enough. Now who's buying jello shots?"

Edited December 12, 2022 by UPONIT
Grammar fail.

[mrelwood]

 

6 minutes ago, UPONIT said:

1) What is "automatic negative chamber pressure equalization" in the air spring of the V13?

That’s just how air shocks without a secondary valve function. There’s a good video to demonstrate how it works here:

https://bikeco.com/rear-shock-negative-air-pressure/

 

6 minutes ago, UPONIT said:

Wasn't that known as "damping" in the V11?

No, the V11 had no damping adjustments. It’s damping properties come from friction alone (at shock piston and the sliders).

6 minutes ago, UPONIT said:

2) The separate damper in the V13 is adjusted via a tool rather than p.s.i. changes, right? So what is the mechanism of the damper?

Dampers use oil traveling from one chamber to another, and the adjustments control the size of the channel the oil has to go through.

Considering how the V13 is so ahead of it’s time in almost all aspects, I too am disappointed that the sliding rail system is still so similar to the V11. Just imagine if it would’ve had a roller based slider similar to what’s in those heavy duty workshop drawers. Can’t wait to see the design of the plastic sliders themselves though.

[MrMonoWheel]

1 hour ago, mrelwood said:

Maybe you haven’t watched Kuji’s reviews much. That’s just how they are. The S18 one for example, zero mentions on the clearly underpowered battery that should be more than blatantly obvious for a rider like Kuji. But he was co-designing the S18 sidepads, so I don’t think anyone even expected a critical non-biased review.

 Also, this was only the third EUC video Kuji has made in 2.5 years, so he clearly hasn’t wanted to be in the game lately. Even if he would’ve used to be more critical or enthusiastic, surely one’s tone is expected to change a bit in such a long time.

What did you expect, a teardown? All the specs and functionalities of the wheel have been clearly demonstrated by Inmotion themselves at the time of the launch. Expecting a review to reveal new info doesn’t sound realistic. A review presents opinions, and I felt that that’s what we got.

“A bit heavy”… You know, that might’ve just revealed how your interpretation of the video’s attitude might be “a bit” off. He actually literally said that “Picking it up is absolutely horrendous.”

Me neither, for exactly the same reasons. But the suspension design, size and weight were already known since like half a year ago, how come you are only now cancelling your order? Did Kuji’s review reveal something that critical after all?

I’ve been waiting for the exact same thing ever since the weight of the V13 was announced.

 

No, there is no “upper chamber adjustment”, or even an upper chamber valve. The air spring is pumped from the bottom, and has an automatic negative chamber pressure equalization. What’s adjusted from the top is the separate damper’s (compression and?) rebound rate.

 

Now that you said it, I don’t think I’ve ever seen Kuji smile. That’s just how he is in his videos.

That is true actually, I rarely watch his videos.

Yeah TBH I expected something more than a product showcase. Take it apart a bit, maybe show some things that could be an issue like the very obvious wear already appearing on the suspension rails.

Regarding why I waited to cancel until now, it's very different seeing the v13 in quick snippets and photos than seeing sustained riding, turning, and maneuvers. But again the weight and size is only half of it, the suspension is the main let down for me.

I guess the video put a lot into perspective for me and made me realize that this isn't going to be the wheel I hoped for due to a number of reasons. We all have our own opinions though.

 

And as you said as I typed this up right now, if the v13 had some sort of roller design or anything fundamentally different than the v11 it would be a killer wheel and enough for me to overlook the size and weight hesitations. There's always next year.

 

@UPONIT there hasn't been any official confirmation that the suspension design is the same, but from what I can see it is the same as the v11 but wider to account for the dampers. We will see the good stuff when someone does a teardown or wrongway gets a hold of one.

 

Welp, now that I know what wheel I'm going with I won't be around this thread much anymore. Its been a wild ride, I look forward to seeing some legit videos down the road. Merry Christmas everyone!

Edited December 12, 2022 by MrMonoWheel

[Paul A]

Car suspensions don't seem to have these myriad of issues.

 

EUC suspension seems to be new, proprietary.....rather than using existing, established, proven components from reputable manufacturers.

 

eg: Users are fitting/modifying themselves with Fox shocks.

[Paul A]

So which EUC has the best, durable, reliable, lowest maintenance, etc.....type of suspension?

Edited December 12, 2022 by Paul A

[UPONIT]

19 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

 I too am disappointed that the sliding rail system is still so similar to the V11.

Thanks for the link and info1 Where was it shown to be so similar? In the launch videos?

[Rawnei]

21 minutes ago, Paul A said:

So which EUC has the best, durable, reliable, lowest maintenance, etc.....type of suspension?

Regarding maintenance anything with a coil shock will generally be less maintenance, air shocks requires more regular maintenance. I think you missed usability, travel length is a huge factor that a lot of people seem to be missing, that's why for instance the Master suspension is decent but not great because it only has 7cm travel length.

Durability hard to say since it depends on time and most suspension wheels not been out that long.

[Eyss]

23 minutes ago, Paul A said:

So which EUC has the best, durable, reliable, lowest maintenance, etc.....type of suspension?

I'd say the begode wheels. 

2500km on a hero with a fair chunk of that as trail riding and zero issues. 

Keen to see wrong ways update on the Sherman s as he mentioned that the suspension was stiff already 

 

[mrelwood]

26 minutes ago, UPONIT said:

Thanks for the link and info1 Where was it shown to be so similar? In the launch videos?

Every image that shows the suspension rails:

[Robse]

2 hours ago, mrelwood said:

Now that you said it, I don’t think I’ve ever seen Kuji smile. That’s just how he is in his videos.

https://youtu.be/ZhCCMtfBqSk?t=5

 

[Tasku]

Kujis videos have always been the same, his experience. I love it that he smiles once a year on the outside but he has that vibe of inner giggle all the time. Like being tickled all the time but yet he just contains it.

In Kuji video you see him wondering and pondering a wheel that has electric motor around the wheel. Yeah EMAW-vehicle! Like all who always come up new names, here we go! Anyway, after he has been pondering about the EMAW-vehicle he takes it for a ride, but he always slaps his own pads on it! He was prolly first on video to use pads that are widely popular now(I only assume there will be fighting about that statement too, who being first. One of the first in video always his own custompads).

After test ride he gives thoughts about his clearly adrealine filled experience with the EMAW-vehicle. Yeah! And he goes for more riding, there be feel good music and lots of drivebys. You get to see other peoples reactions and stares too. 

His stuff is never a review nor is it technical. It is bit of hype, and his experience. It is after all quite difficult to express your feelings or emotions of riding the EMAW-vehicle, yet I think people can feel that inner giggle Kuji often has and we have a picture of Kuji smiling, once. He broke character that day tho.

Anyhoo, V13. I write something about it in next post. Man cant wait for next Kuji video!

[Robse]

12 minutes ago, Tasku said:

Kujis videos have always been the same, his experience. I love it that he smiles once a year on the outside but he has that vibe of inner giggle all the time. Like being tickled all the time but yet he just contains it.

Exact !  And in the V13 video this inner spirit is nowhere to be found.  Don't know what it is, but it is felt in the subtle details.

[UPONIT]

2 hours ago, mrelwood said:

Every image that shows the suspension rails:

 

Oh that picture that caused such a ruckus. I have a couple questions about that. A cheap, terrible spring shock for a moped, and a high-quality, smooth spring shock for the same bike will look similar in a picture, right? Couldn't the InMotion v11 vs v13 suspensions be the same situation? They appear similar because they are the same category of thing, but one could have enough improvements in materials, tolerances and other unknown factors to make it substantially better? Unlikely? Possible?

Without knowing the context, that image shows a unit that a test rider has purposefully beaten the ess out of, for testing purposes, resulting in the (max 5 mils thick) anodized layer being scraped or worn at the end of travel, with unknown results. Is that a fair depiction of the results of average use? Also: images aren't real life.

I am just as subject to confirmation bias as everybody. And just wishful thinking. And I definitely have motivated reasoning: There is no path in or out of my neighborhood that doesn't have at least one hill the V11 can't handle. Seriously. I NEED the 4,500W motor and its margin of safety, almost to the point where I could do without a game-changing suspension, because I'm never going to do six foot drops or MTB trails. We do have tons of bad potholes and cracked sidewalks, though. GRRRR...

[Rawnei]

7 minutes ago, UPONIT said:

Oh that picture that caused such a ruckus. I have a couple questions about that. A cheap, terrible spring shock for a moped, and a high-quality, smooth spring shock for the same bike will look similar in a picture, right? Couldn't the InMotion v11 vs v13 suspensions be the same situation? They appear similar because they are the same category of thing, but one could have enough improvements in materials, tolerances and other unknown factors to make it substantially better? Unlikely? Possible?

Without knowing the context, that image shows a unit that a test rider has purposefully beaten the ess out of, for testing purposes, resulting in the (max 5 mils thick) anodized layer being scraped or worn at the end of travel, with unknown results. Is that a fair depiction of the results of average use? Also: images aren't real life.

I am just as subject to confirmation bias as everybody. And just wishful thinking. And I definitely have motivated reasoning: There is no path in or out of my neighborhood that doesn't have at least one hill the V11 can't handle. Seriously. I NEED the 4,500W motor and its margin of safety, almost to the point where I could do without a game-changing suspension, because I'm never going to do six foot drops or MTB trails. We do have tons of bad potholes and cracked sidewalks, though. GRRRR...

Noun

copium (uncountable)

    (Internet slang, neologism, derogatory, humorous) A fictional or metaphorical opiate taken in order to cope when one is faced with loss.

[Paul A]

25 minutes ago, UPONIT said:

There is no path in or out of my neighborhood that doesn't have at least one hill the V11 can't handle.

 

Can the V11 ride up Lombard Street?  Bradford Street?

[mrelwood]

 

21 minutes ago, UPONIT said:

A cheap, terrible spring shock for a moped, and a high-quality, smooth spring shock for the same bike will look similar in a picture, right?

Yes if they are of similar design. And in this case the suspension rail design on the V13 and V11 is similar. Which was my original point.

21 minutes ago, UPONIT said:

one could have enough improvements in materials, tolerances and other unknown factors to make it substantially better?

It’s clear that the suspension design as a whole is substantially better in the V13 because the chassis is suspended, travel is longer, and a damper exists in the first place.

 The problem is that the slider rails aren’t suitable and durable enough for aggressive off-road riding long term, and possibly even aggressive riding in general. The rails on my V11 were completely toast well before 3000km, and the suspension action had started dying before 1000km.

 We don’t know if the plastic slider shape and size or the material has been changed, so it is possible that it does better. But no matter the upgrades, a slider system like that won’t be cadillacy plush for the lifetime of the wheel.

 Then there is the air spring itself, which I really hope will be of better quality this time. We won’t know until enough riders have had theirs for a year.

21 minutes ago, UPONIT said:

resulting in the (max 5 mils thick) anodized layer being scraped or worn at the end of travel

Which should never be in contact on the first place.

21 minutes ago, UPONIT said:

Is that a fair depiction of the results of average use?

Enduring average use isn’t nearly enough for a wheel that is one of the most powerful and fast wheels in the market. A $4k wheel simply must endure hard use for a reasonable amount of time as well.

No matter the details, I’m sure the V13 suspension will be good for many riders. But I’m afraid that the amount of users that it isn’t good for might be unfortunately large.