V10F just delivered.. First EUC + Chicway Warning PSA

[Tawpie]

why you shouldn't let them get too low...

https://batteryuniversity.com/article/bu-702-how-to-store-batteries

but there's hope... cells should have protection against over discharge. BUT the warnings in the first article still apply.

https://batteryuniversity.com/article/bu-808a-how-to-awaken-a-sleeping-li-ion

Your pack made it to 84V, but did so slower than expected. I'm very leary of a pack that acts in an out of the ordinary way... they are a bunch of individual cells stacked in series so it's very difficult to know if any single cell in the pack is damaged. EUC charging and pack management circuits are the lowest cost possible, so while they aren't useless, they also aren't very sophisticated.

You might luck out and all is well—all the cell protection circuits worked and the charger was able to wake them up. But you're not supposed to have to gamble that the pack is 'good', and you are due a refund. IMHO.

Getting the pack to 84V is a necessary but insufficient indicator of overall battery health. It's a promising sign, but discharge has to be nominal, subsequent charge cycles have to be nominal, and the pack must be able to be balanced before I'm comfortable.

Edited August 23, 2021 by Tawpie

[mrelwood]

28 minutes ago, WildEUC said:

Does it make any difference that it eventually did get to 84v? 

I believe it does, and that’s exactly what I wanted to point out. The self-drainage of li-ion batteries is very low, and I don’t remember reports of the V10F to have a noticeable ghost currents either.

 If the battery pack had been below a dangerously low level, the BMS shouldn’t have allowed any charging. And since the wheel woke up after charging for just a while, it couldn’t have been much below what the wheel considers 0% (average 3.15V / cell).

2.5V is usually mentioned as the threshold that if the voltage goes below, the cell shouldn’t be charged ever again. Since the wheel got up to 84V on first charge, the cell balance of the pack couldn’t have been too far off either, so I think it can be expected that none of the cells had reached 2.5V.

I received a fresh V11 from the first batch with just a few % in the battery, so it seems that they want to minimize the energy they ship the wheel with. I’d expect your wheel to have left the factory at very low battery as well.

Storing li-ions at around 3V per cell for a year does decrease the expected capacity after 300 charge cycles, which is normally 70-80%. But for the V10F that is something like 10000-15000 miles!

All in all, I think that shipping the wheel back is what would happen in a perfect world, but for $500 it might not indeed be worth it. Most riders never reach even 5000 miles on their EUCs, and if you won’t either, I think it’s reasonable to expect that the wheel will function exactly like a perfect individual would for its whole lifetime.

But it all boils down to your personal attitude on how perfect a new product should be, and if a remote potential of an increased risk is something to be concerned of or not. The ~dozen EUC battery fires that have been reported are all either GW wheels or clearly abused (charging after water ingress or such) ones. I can assure you, there are quite a few wheels around that were stored below 0% for a year, and the risk level due to that doesn’t seem to be very large.

 What you probably should get from Chickway though is a new charger.

 Personally, I would keep the wheel, but I would also probably disassemble it and measure the individual cell groups, since I’m like that, and I do advanced EUC repairs for myself and for other locals as well.

If you decide to keep the wheel, I’d make sure to keep charging for 1-2 hours after the charger turns green, on every charge. And check the exact voltage the wheel gets up to after every charge. And like always, if anything at all change in the wheel’s behavior, range, or sounds it emits, investigate thoroughly.

Edited August 23, 2021 by mrelwood

[.....]

39 minutes ago, WildEUC said:

I am well aware of the fires that have happened and what they can do.  As far as I was aware, none had caught fire solely from being drained to zero and then used as normal?  So I didn't know that on its own was a concern for fire.

There's no way I can afford an extra $500 to ship this thing.  

 

Does it make any difference that it eventually did get to 84v? 

Dont Panic! Seriously. If it finally fully charged to 84v and nothing bad happened, you can breathe easier. If you had lots of bad batteries, it wouldnt get to that level of charge and would indicate a problem. Ride it down to 50% or something, and charge it slowly, again. If it charges back up to 84v again and doesnt drop more than a volt after sitting for a couple hours, you've even less to worry about. Ride it for a range test and let the battery get down to 10% or so. Charge it back up. If it gets to 84v and doesnt lose much surface charge after sitting a few hours...  Buy a quality charger and forget that ANY of this battery worry ever happened. Of course, charge it in a safe area the first couple times. A LOOOONG extension cord, a private parking lot and a 6 pack of beer, should suffice..

 

*oh, and DO NOT consider your car any kind of safe place for fires. You do know theres a fuel tank under most of them, right? They also tend to get too hot in the direct sunlight. Storing and charging wheels in a vehicle, may not be a wise idea.

If lion batteries caught fire all the time from sitting too long, lots of women would be citing fires from their top dresser drawers.....

Edited August 23, 2021 by ShanesPlanet

[mrelwood]

@ShanesPlanet sums up a practical attitude that I think is quite reasonable. He tends to do that. 

 Just to make sure, I’m not demeaning any of the warnings brought up in this thread! They are all very real. But based on what you’ve told us, I don’t think that it would be probable for them to apply in your case.

Had your wheel been bought from Ewheels or other vendor who offers cheap or free returns though, then sure, no reason not to roll the dice again. But if you can’t find a way to ship the wheel back for less than ~40% of it’s value… No thanks. I’d just try and learn to accept the non-perfectness of the world of EUCs. The manufacturers and vendors already have.

Edited August 23, 2021 by mrelwood

[WildEUC]

13 minutes ago, ShanesPlanet said:

Dont Panic! Seriously. If it finally fully charged to 84v and nothing bad happened, you can breathe easier. If you had lots of bad batteries, it wouldnt get to that level of charge and would indicate a problem. Ride it down to 50% or something, and charge it slowly, again. If it charges back up to 84v again and doesnt drop more than a volt after sitting for a couple hours, you've even less to worry about. Ride it for a range test and let the battery get down to 10% or so. Charge it back up. If it gets to 84v and doesnt lose much surface charge after sitting a few hours...  Buy a quality charger and forget that ANY of this battery worry ever happened. Of course, charge it in a safe area the first couple times. A LOOOONG extension cord, a private parking lot and a 6 pack of beer, should suffice..

 

*oh, and DO NOT consider your car any kind of safe place for fires. You do know theres a fuel tank under most of them, right? They also tend to get too hot in the direct sunlight. Storing and charging wheels in a vehicle, may not be a wise idea.

If lion batteries caught fire all the time from sitting too long, lots of women would be citing fires from their top dresser drawers.....

Thanks man, nice to hear that it should be relatively low risk, as there is no way I want to ship it to China.

 

As far as car storage, my only logic was I'd rather it burn down a couple cars then a multi family 3 level apartment building with dozens of people and my kids in it.  The fires from these things terrify me enough already but I didn't know how at risk I was in this scenario.  Seems like if it keeps charging normally from this point back to 84v, pretty negligible risk?

[Chriull]

3 hours ago, WildEUC said:

Shipping the wheel back with tracking and insurance seems like it will be $500+.

Makes absolutely no sense, I've been back and forth with PayPal and they side with Chicway 100%.

I did a lot of research and seems this is a very very common China/PayPal scam.  

That's unfortionately fully legit as stated in the "terms of service". It's written and discussed in quite every forum were people happen to order from china, but business goes on - noone seems to care!

1 hour ago, WildEUC said:

There's no way I can afford an extra $500 to ship this thing.  

But you'll get your money back from paypal?! So you have less loss in the end?!

And it's the only way that chicway has a financial impact, too.

1 hour ago, WildEUC said:

Does it make any difference that it eventually did get to 84v? 

If it did reach 84V eventually while connected to the charger, i'd assume it would not hold this voltage?

Beeing overdischarged dentrids grow in li ion cells, structurally damaging the cell. Fire hazard risk is definitely increased and usable capacity reduced.

Only sane thing is to replace the battery (or the degraded cells if one happen to have a specialized shop nearby for this task)

[WildEUC]

2 minutes ago, Chriull said:

That's unfortionately fully legit as stated in the "terms of service". It's written and discussed in quite every forum were people happen to order from china, but business goes on - noone seems to care!

But you'll get your money back from paypal?! So you have less loss in the end?!

And it's the only way that chicway has a financial impact, too.

If it did reach 84V eventually while connected to the charger, i'd assume it would not hold this voltage?

Beeing overdischarged dentrids grow in li ion cells, structurally damaging the cell. Fire hazard risk is definitely increased and usable capacity reduced.

Only sane thing is to replace the battery (or the degraded cells if one happen to have a specialized shop nearby for this task)

My money back -$500 for something I didn't get to use and showed up in a condition some consider unsafe, doesn't seem right.  

Where in their ToS does it explicitly say all returns go to China? 

 

Also in regards to voltage, I unplugged after it hit 84v about an hour after green light.  It held 84v exactly for the next 24 hours.  I've rolled around on it a little around the inside on carpet, not much. Been too worried over the return to try more.  Still 83.6v and shows 100% on EUC world.

Inmotion app shows same, and says EUC in good health when I run the diagnosis thing.

[Chriull]

1 minute ago, WildEUC said:

My money back -$500 for something I didn't get to use and showed up in a condition some consider unsafe, doesn't seem right.  

Where in their ToS does it explicitly say all returns go to China? 

You bought from a chinese company. If they are "nice" they wrote their conditions correctly on their website.

If they'd offer any other ToS, like acccepting return shippments within the US it would still just be a promise to be legally enforced in china, but maybe accepted from paypal?

One would need a sales contract settling everything including legal actions in the US, but then still US court claims will not reach them in China. They'd have to establish a deposit within the US to credibly give customer protection.

Ps.: Just looked at their website:

"Full or Partial Refund
If the item is not as described

If your item is significantly different from the product description, you can A: Return it and get a full refund, or B: Get a partial refund and keep the item.
We can also offer additional guarantees for their products:

Domestic Returns

Products which fall under this return policy can be returned domestically, as long as they are unused and in the original packaging. No questions asked!"

I'd assume your v10F is not in the domestic return policy?

 

1 minute ago, WildEUC said:

Also in regards to voltage, I unplugged after it hit 84v about an hour after green light.  It held 84v exactly for the next 24 hours.  I've rolled around on it a little around the inside on carpet, not much. Been too worried over the return to try more.  Still 83.6v and shows 100% on EUC world.

That's a good sign! Could be you had good luck? Cells start to deteiriate/die more or less below 2.5V. EUCs show 0% at 3.15 to 3.3V per cell, but as cells are put in series only the sum of all 20 cells is checked and single cells can have voltages well below the average.

Your comment, that charging took very long was hinting to dead batteries, too. But as time is relative, it could still have be the normal "long" time charging just needs?

1 minute ago, WildEUC said:

Inmotion app shows same, and says EUC in good health when I run the diagnosis thing.

I'd guess inmotion does not monitor single cell voltages? If so one should understand the diagnosis message as "healthy, as far as the system was able to check".

But keep your wheel under close "inspection" and ride a bit and charge it again. Repeat. If it always charges again to ~84V and keeps the voltage you could have good luck!

[WildEUC]

25 minutes ago, Chriull said:

You bought from a chinese company. If they are "nice" they wrote their conditions correctly on their website.

If they'd offer any other ToS, like acccepting return shippments within the US it would still just be a promise to be legally enforced in china, but maybe accepted from paypal?

One would need a sales contract settling everything including legal actions in the US, but then still US court claims will not reach them in China. They'd have to establish a deposit within the US to credibly give customer protection.

Ps.: Just looked at their website:

"Full or Partial Refund
If the item is not as described

If your item is significantly different from the product description, you can A: Return it and get a full refund, or B: Get a partial refund and keep the item.
We can also offer additional guarantees for their products:

Domestic Returns

Products which fall under this return policy can be returned domestically, as long as they are unused and in the original packaging. No questions asked!"

I'd assume your v10F is not in the domestic return policy?

 

That's a good sign! Could be you had good luck? Cells start to deteiriate/die more or less below 2.5V. EUCs show 0% at 3.15 to 3.3V per cell, but as cells are put in series only the sum of all 20 cells is checked and single cells can have voltages well below the average.

In regards to their policy, since it doesn't specify that they pay return shipping, I guess they aren't technically lying...but domestically must refer to China? Not sure there.  I'd be happy with a partial refund even but that has not been offered or mentioned.  

It was about 3-5 minutes before it fully powered on when first plugged in.  And there is no way they were down at 2.5v if 3.15v is the 0%.  It would have taken way way longer to power back on if it needed to gain .6v or more, right? 

 

 

 

[Chriull]

19 minutes ago, WildEUC said:

It was about 3-5 minutes before it fully powered on when first plugged in.  And there is no way they were down at 2.5v if 3.15v is the 0%.  It would have taken way way longer to power back on if it needed to gain .6v or more, right? 

Hard to say - i (we) are missing reports for such "special" cases. Inmotion, afair shows 0% for 3.3V - so 3.3V*20=66V. But i do not know at which voltage it will turn on - maybe that's implicitly some voltage depending on the DC/DC converter that generates the 5V or 3.3V for the cpu or it is measured and limited for example at these 2.5V*20=50V. So the wheel does not start once the _average_ cell voltage is below the absolute limit...

And as written before - that's average voltage over 20 cells. They can (and definitely do at lower voltages) differ cell by cell from this average!

[Chriull]

35 minutes ago, WildEUC said:

 I'd be happy with a partial refund even but that has not been offered or mentioned.

I'd assume they have no reason to offer anything - they have the full amount of the sales price and got rid of an old wheel.

Imho you'd have to risk sending the wheel back at your expenses. So they could loose the whole salesprice to paypal and could by this be open for a partial refund?

[mrelwood]

They would most probably just sell the wheel to the next customer, so they’d end up losing nothing. Partial refund without return would maybe be the most useful outcome for all parties.

[Tawpie]

Meantime (since it doesn't make financial sense to send it back I'd still at least try to get the battery pack replaced), do what @ShanesPlanet suggested: ride it, charge it, ride it, charge it, all while carefully monitoring the way it discharges and recharges. If it discharges normally (nice steady discharge rate, reasonably close to expected range) and charges normally (can be computed, but the owner's manual should say how long it takes to charge) you can gain confidence in the battery. Keep a close eye on it. Baby it for a while. The individual cell protection may have (should have) worked and it might be ok!

Or, for $500 you could start shopping for a replacement battery. Or not.

[.....]

ask an upstairs neighbor to charge ot for you in their apartment for the next week. While you do that, replace the batteries in your smoke detector and check the insurance policy?

Just kidding... or am I?

Ride it, ride it, ride it.

I feel you on losing the shipping and just HOPING you dont end up completely screwed. I would chalk it up to a lesson learned and just be mindful. Bad batteries ARE a hazard, but we really must look at the evidence. THOUSANDS of wheels have been sold in the last 5 years. We have only heard of a few catching fire. Thousands of scooters, same deal. Be mindful like @Tawpie mentions, and I would think you shall be okay. If you know a rider, they could easily ride it down to near nothng for you, without crashing it. However, if you are more than likely NOT going to mess with chicway about it.... beat the beast and start bonding.

Battery fires are a real thing, but lets not get too worried about it. Maybe charge it next to a window that looks down on the car of someone you dont like? I'd place a hard bet of $100 that in 3 months time, you will be more worried about crashing at speed than a battery fire.

[meepmeepmayer]

I second @ShanesPlanet's response above. Don't worry too much If it charges to full voltage now, the batteries are in a good state now. That rules out battery damage. Just don't charge unattended (apparently that applies to every wheel now) and you're good.

All these fires have overwhelmingly been 21700 type battery cells. The old 18650s that the V10(F) uses have never had any fire problems, and there is no real reason a fire would start just because the cells have had too low voltage before.

So if it charges to 100% reliably, you have a good wheel!

Just watch out for any unexplained behavior or change of behavior (that, again, applies to every wheel).

[Chriull]

4 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

If it charges to full voltage now, the batteries are in a good state now. That rules out battery damage. Just don't charge unattended (apparently that applies to every wheel now) and you're good.

Imho that's what is to be known about battery safety. Maybe to be added that battery has to keep the voltage after charging.

But that's about all one needs to know!

[Gil]

On 8/23/2021 at 10:01 AM, WildEUC said:

[...]

Also in regards to voltage, I unplugged after it hit 84v about an hour after green light.  It held 84v exactly for the next 24 hours.  I've rolled around on it a little around the inside on carpet, not much. Been too worried over the return to try more.  Still 83.6v and shows 100% on EUC world.

[...]

Isn't it what I told you at the very beginning of this discussion? Yes, Li-Ion batteries suffer from being discharged too much but you have many many factors : in your case, they were quite new and were never been charged before. And 0% does not mean 0 Volt. I guess that you have at least one powerbank that got completely discharged one day. Did you trash it ?

My advice is that you let your charger connected during more than one hour (let's say one night) after full charge to let the BMS balance the cells, just for the first 2 charging cycles and from times to time after that (let's say once per month).
In the past, I spent hours reading many things about batteries, optimal charging and so on, in order to save battery life but... always changed my wheel before any sign of worn battery...

So, trust me, just ENJOY riding your wheel!!!

[mrelwood]

14 hours ago, Gil said:

My advice is that you let your charger connected during more than one hour (let's say one night) after full charge to let the BMS balance the cells

The charging current gets so low after a few hours of chargers showing green, that there’s really no point in keeping it plugged overnight.

For maximum balancing, keep the wheel in charger for 1-2 hours after green, ride for 5-10 miles, charger again and keep plugged in for another 1-2 hours after green.

 And all this only works of course if the battery voltage gets up to the maximum announced (+- 1V) in the first place, like it does in the op’s V10F.

[Unventor]

Long story.

I think @Chriull is right on this case. I would really thing three times before charging and using this V10f with the initial charging problems you had @WildEUC.

Battery and control board issues should not be taken lightly. And yes I learned my lesson the hard way too on this one. Rigging a wheel with control board warning and knowing better it died on me at 25-30kmh after 500ish m of riding.

What might seem fine now, can hit you out of the blue at any point. 

Now I can say this again, but trading with Chinese companies are not the same as trading in US or EU. It is very very different.And you have very limited ways to claim your case. And when they write domestic that means China ONLY in any regards. They view the world in domestic and international and are treated VERY differently.

So right now as I see it it is about making best of a bad situation. And I think a battery replacement would make it much safer to use in the future. In your situation I would take this as a lesson of global trade. This has cost either way you go about this. But getting a partial refund and adding what you saved might get you a new battery. In the US it seems EUCO are cheep on Inmotion spare parts.

Now I know @ShanesPlanet might not agree here. But I am more looking at how to avoid a much worse situation with many more problems Vs what it cost to do that. In my economic this is a no brainer. But I understand others have different views. 

Now if you get a new battery you need to be very careful when opening the shell. The side panels takes a special touch to open otherwise you easily crack the side panels. It is a bit hard to explain in text but you have 2 prey points and you have to start at the top and work your way down the sides. I suggest to ask the place where you buy the battery from. I have not yet see any good video explaining this yet. All seems to skip the part of how much work or little they do to open the shell. And remember to take out all screws too. On Inmotion France you can find a PDF guide that show all screws to remove and the prey points. But it is in French.

if you have a local rider that has opened a V10F it could be wise to ask him. 

 

[Unventor]

And btw there have been cases of battery fire on V10f. That was on first batch. 

From the production of your wheel the battery pack is in a box or container. First cases came from water entering between the 2 structure joining and wasn't properly sealed. Rework kits was sent out or wheels recalled for rework to fix this. Later it turned out wrapping go damaged over time due to wrapping rubbing inside the wheel over time. 

Both issue are fixed and not a problem anymore. So when getting a replacement battery ask if you have the container too or if you are to reuse the one from old battery. Last part I am not sure how easy that is. And it can be a little more tricky to get the pack out as it is dubbel side adhesive tape holding in place in the compartment in the wheel structure.

[WildEUC]

Chicway is not even being responsive at this point regarding anything in any format.  Regarding refunds, partial refunds, or even getting my protective case or an in warranty charger.  They send me a generic message saying something about their system or they say nothing at all lately.  No numbers to call obviously.  

 

So not holding my breath for ANY help from them and PayPal has their back for some reason... Very black and white to them and they can't be reasoned with even by phone.  

 

So yeah...  I've basically only tried riding around on carpet, which is not easy and I suck.  Battery still holding voltage, but every one contradicts each other, some say enjoy riding, some say fire risk...

 

I have 3 kids and an apartment with many more so have been scared to plug it in.  Even though some say not to worry...hard to not...

 

Really not sure what to do... 

 

Anyone want a good deal on an unused maybe risky v10f? Preferably with a safer place to keep it than me....? Lol

[mrelwood]

2 hours ago, WildEUC said:

but every one contradicts each other, some say enjoy riding, some say fire risk...

That is often the problem nowadays when every piece of any info tends to have counter arguments somewhere online.

What I noticed in your case though is that most of those who are deeply alarmed by the state of your battery, seem to be reacting to a battery having any kind of an anomaly. Battery + anomaly = danger, so your situation must be dangerous as well.

I try to look at the facts much closer. Knowing that your wheel turned on in mere minutes after starting the charge can only mean that the total voltage of the pack couldn’t have been much below what your wheel considers 0% (3.15V cell at average).

 When you charged to full, the BMS didn’t interrupt the charge due to an overvoltage in any single cell group. Knowing that the balancing currents tend to be quite low on EUCs, I don’t see how any single cell group could’ve been much lower than the rest, even when the pack was “empty”.

 Adding the fact that the voltage stayed exactly the same a full hour after the charge, means that there is simply nothing that points to the pack having been badly out of balance.

 Also knowing how Inmotions tend to have less cell balancing issues than others, I think it’s reasonable to assume that they either tend to source cells with a tight tolerance, or that their cell balancing works better than in other wheels.

 Putting all this together, I just don’t see how your battery could’ve been in the danger zone. I’m no battery expert though, and there can be things that I fail to consider. Which is why I have to agree that even if I can’t see how, there still exists a possibility that the probability of danger may be elevated with your wheel.

I guess there really can be a distant possibility that the earth truly would be the only planet out of the trillions that exists in the universe to be able to create and support life. How probable that is though, I have absolutely no clue.

 Not sure how all that can be of any help though… sorry!

Edited August 30, 2021 by mrelwood

[Gil]

56 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

[...] there still exists a possibility that the probability of danger may be elevated [...]

Nice! I will keep it ;-)

And there is also a chance that the possibility that the probability of danger may be elevated could be higher with a quite new battery that has never been proofed by a total discharge followed by a successful charge... 

[meepmeepmayer]

If the battery charges to full voltage and doesn't show any unusual behavior (meaning now that it holds its charge), there really isn't any reason to worry. It was just a battery that apparently sat a while, but is now back to normal.

Just don't charge unattended, and don't store in a place where a potential fire (not that you should expect one) would do too much damage. That's (unfortunately) common sense for every wheel, not just yours. (Again, the V10Fhas the very-good-safety-record 18650 type cells, no reason to expect a fire.)

[WildEUC]

So store it in the back of my car? There is no where indoors on my 3rd floor apartment where it would do "minimal" damage. 

Also have no idea where to charge it 'safely' in this city where it would do minimal damage.