Kingsong S20/S22 (Confirmed)

[RagingGrandpa]

21 minutes ago, supercurio said:

https://euc.world/tour/606859355653342

The wheel travelled without being ridden approximately 10.5km near the beginning. Maybe in a car, tram or bus.

Actually, I think it means bluetooth connection to the EUC was lost during that time. Speeds are still EUC speeds, and the path moves along sidewalks where other vehicles can't go...

[Tawpie]

yeah, bluetooth issue. There's a 30 minute break they took in the park... when they arrived, no wheel data. (roughly) 30 minutes later they left from the same spot with wheel data being collected. First logged voltage when they resumed is 122.9V. (zoom the map in, then hover over the route and a pop-up shows the data at that point)

I wonder if being at the NW end of PDX might have had something to do with loss of BT?

Edited February 24, 2022 by Tawpie

[Paul A]

Attach a weight and mount EUC onto a dynometer for a non stop, constant speed, range test....

Lower battery limit is set arbitrarily set by software?

[supercurio]

45 minutes ago, RagingGrandpa said:

Actually, I think it means bluetooth connection to the EUC was lost during that time. Speeds are still EUC speeds, and the path moves along sidewalks where other vehicles can't go...

That's what I initially thought as well: lost bluetooth connection.
Then as @Rawnei pointed out it was not ridden, I looked at the voltage and temps.

Voltage would have gone down, and temps would not be beyond ambient (same as the very beginning)

Edit: probably wrong theory as discussed later

Edited February 24, 2022 by supercurio

[Rawnei]

Just now, Tawpie said:

yeah, bluetooth issue. There's a 30 minute break they took in the park... when they arrived, no wheel data. (roughly) 30 minutes later they left from the same spot with wheel data being collected. First logged voltage when they resumed is 122.9V. (zoom the map in, then hover over the route and a pop-up shows the data at that point)

Huh? It's 10km GPS changing location but no data from wheel, look again, and voltage looks very similar before and after that 10km gap.

15 minutes ago, RagingGrandpa said:

Actually, I think it means bluetooth connection to the EUC was lost during that time. Speeds are still EUC speeds, and the path moves along sidewalks where other vehicles can't go...

10km of bluetooth issue? I don't find that plausible.

[Tawpie]

1 minute ago, supercurio said:

Voltage would have gone down, and temps would not be ambient.

There's a 30 minute break at that point. I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt here!

[supercurio]

1 minute ago, Tawpie said:

There's a 30 minute break at that point. I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt here!

Ah yes, good point, the time view tells more of the story

[Tawpie]

Either way, they did quite a bit better than SpeedyFeet. I'd love to see Ian's logs—just so I know what not to do if I don't want to walk home.

[Tawpie]

BTW, on EUCWorld's webpage there is a Preferences menu at the top. Choose Chart Scale > Time and it'll plot the X axis as time rather than distance.

Edited February 24, 2022 by Tawpie

[Rawnei]

6 minutes ago, Tawpie said:

BTW, on EUCWorld's webpage there is a Preferences menu at the top. Choose Chart Scale > Time and it'll plot the X axis as time rather than distance.

Yes sure, and look at 11:20AM for example.

[Rolzi]

1 hour ago, supercurio said:

Rev Rides was kind enough to publish the EUC World tour recording on their low-speed long-range range test

Let's look at it !
https://euc.world/tour/606859355653342

Nice! 

Useful info to keep in mind:

Battery starts at 125v.

The current tilt back is at 95v (3.15v per cell)

Other kingsongs use battery until 3.0v

Lowest voltage dipped at 86v (2.876v per cell)

Ian cut out at walking speed was at 82,65v (2.755v per cell)

Cell values are average of all cells, there might be cells that are higher or lower. Its nice that we can monitor this in the future.

The battery cells themselves will cut off at 2.5v

At the end no load voltage seems to be around 100.6v, so still some juice left.

17.7 Wh/km AVG

1,598.7 Wh TOTAL

Seems spot on with what @mrelwood sair earlier and taking into account the missing 10km. 

 

About the time skip. Before seems to be around 124v middle there is a blip of info 123v and after 122v. Seems right too.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 24, 2022 by Rolzi

[supercurio]

Yes @Tawpie when looking at the the recording with Chart Scale being set to Time instead of Distance, it tells this:

1.78km, 24℃, 124V
~12km, 15℃, 123V

1V for 10km? Maybe.

At that point, voltage goes down to 122.2V, despite not being ridden. Is it smoothed by @Seba's EUC World, or did the app re-connect to the other S20?
Maybe they tried each other wheels which could explain the loss of BT connection.

@Rolzi guessing the energy estimates are wrong: both AVG and TOTAL seem low.

 

Edited February 24, 2022 by supercurio

[Paul A]

 

[Tasku]

1 minute ago, Rolzi said:

Battery starts at 125.5v same voltage that was recently measured by WrongWay.

This should be due to charger. The pre-production unit has charger that does not actually provide full 126V (125.5V), it was stated, that it will be be changed to another model. (pre-production charger was same manufactor as gotway used..)
 

[Rolzi]

20 minutes ago, supercurio said:

@Rolzi guessing the energy estimates are wrong: both AVG and TOTAL are too low.

Add the missing section and the used Wh is around 1800.

Lets say there is maybe around 200 Wh still usable energy in the battery. 

Then take what @mrelwood said about not being able to use the 100% Wh of the pack anyway (stopping usage at 3.15v versus 2.5v per cell that is what the calculated 2200wh is from)

Edit: Also please don't try to compare the earlier Wh/km to these values. The other values are stricly calculated with the maximum cell usage, speed and time. These values are straight from what the wheel reports. So the values are not comparable (exactly for the reasons @mrelwoodstated).

Edited February 24, 2022 by Rolzi

[Tawpie]

7 minutes ago, supercurio said:

Maybe they tried each other wheels which could explain the loss of BT connection.

Who knows. I wasn't there and to me, everyone else's range tests are "for indication only". I'm gonna get well over the 40ish miles I get on my S18 and that's what I'm concerned about (I really only wanted an S18XL). I darn well better get further than Ian did, if not there will be a slightly used batch 1 S20 for sale... and I'll be able to deliver it the instant the cash hits my palm. And is counted. 

Edited February 24, 2022 by Tawpie

[Rolzi]

About the BT connection.

Right now i have Bluetooth headphones in my helmet.

I have a problem where both the wheel and the headphones will disconnect at the same time.

Headphones will connect back immediately but i have to go manually connect the wheel back in EUC world. I haven't waited if the wheel connects back automatically after a longer time.

Edited February 24, 2022 by Rolzi

[Tawpie]

1 minute ago, Rolzi said:

Headphones will connect back immediately but i have to go manually connect the wheel back in EUC world.

Remember the heartbeat feature that @Seba just added? I think it's because getting disconnected from the wheel is common enough to be an 'issue', and that it doesn't automatically reconnect (it may be using a data profile that doesn't support auto reconnect... the audio profile certainly does but I haven't looked at the BT profiles in a very long time so I don't know if data connections are different).

[supercurio]

Good discussion on the data and thanks for the correction 
I hope we'll get a comparative range test soon, with a S20, and 16X/18XL/V11 riding together, for less (or more!) speculation.

@Rolzi wheel data is over Bluetooth Low Energy and headphones is Bluetooth Classic.
Both are pretty different technologies although handled by the same chipset, and software stack to some extend. It sound like an issue with your phone software, hopefully will be solved in an update.
EUC World should re-connect automatically to the wheel, as long as Bluetooth is not switched off entirely in your phone settings.

Edited February 24, 2022 by supercurio

[Tawpie]

4 minutes ago, supercurio said:

EUC World should re-connect automatically to the wheel

Come to think of it, I'm certain it reconnects to my 16X and S18. Beep beep beepbeepbeep beep beep beeeeeep when I get close enough.

[Paul A]

As mentioned by members Rolzi and Tasku, if the charger used was only charging to 125.5V or less, the shortfall of 0.5V is quite significant.

[supercurio]

3 minutes ago, Paul A said:

As mentioned by members Rolzi and Tasku, if the charger used was only charging to 125.5V or less, the shortfall of 0.5V is quite significant.

Other testers reported between 124 and 124.5V, and this one starts at 125V (max at 125.4V was probably a regen peak during braking)

Hard to tell if the difference is in the chargers or mismatched calibration of the wheel's voltmeter or variation between chargers.
But that explains why some testers say they start at 96%, some others at 94%.

And yes maybe 1 to 2V lost when charging equals to 10-15km range missing in the end.

Edited February 24, 2022 by supercurio

[Paul A]

Yes, variation in chargers.

Have two chargers. 

One can display a green light at end of charge.

Plug in the other, it will show a red light, and continue charging until green light shows.

[supercurio]

And another range test!

Funny how everyone wanted to wheelie just like the EUC 

TLDW / Spoiler:

45.3 miles - 73km
Average Riding: 19 mph

A little bit of everything in the ride which I liked.

[mrelwood]

9 hours ago, Rolzi said:

I will agree this matters if you can prove that the amount of energy going to the cells and used from the cells on different wheels is widely different when we calculate the energy capacity straight from the tested capacity of the cell and the series/parellel it is used in.

 

There are discharge charts like this available from most cells, but the end result is the same on all of them:

1) The 5 amp graph reaches 3.15V after 3900mAh, and the 5000mAh rating is almost reached at 2.5V, after 4932mAh. That's 21% missing from the announced. 46% missing at 10A. These are amp-hours though, and the missing capacity is a bit smaller in percentage when expressed in Wh (because P(W) = U(V) * I(A), and the voltage is lower at the end of the discharge).

2) whether the cells actually even reach their announced capacity down to 2.5V is another matter, and differs between cell types and models.

But again, this is only relevant when trying to compare calculations from the announced capacity or consumption figures to ones measured by the wheel or an app.

 

2 hours ago, Paul A said:

Attach a weight and mount EUC onto a dynometer for a non stop, constant speed, non-relevant range test....

There, fixed that for you.

 

2 hours ago, Paul A said:

Lower battery limit is set arbitrarily set by software?

Yes. Just like the 2.5V low limit is just the manufacturer specified lower limit. The cell will happily go down to 0V if the discharge is not stopped, but the cell chemistry just starts to get damaged below 2.5V, after which it can be dangerous to ever even recharge the cell.