Kingsong S20/S22 (Confirmed)

[sunstrong]

7 minutes ago, jrhz06 said:

Yes, still ZX. Couple of date stickers, latest 8/25/22.

Lol this is one month earlier than their ETA. If I had known I would have just waited for them to change the motor for me before delivery

[litewave]

I admire the persistence of you early adopters but am grateful I pulled the plug on my purchase and got a full refund just before mine shipped.

I simply did/do not have the time to deal with this ongoing drama.

Thank you all for working hard to make the S22 better for all of us.

[Rawnei]

11 hours ago, techyiam said:

Oh wow, there is a mystery right there. Are you not using factory stock shock?

Sorry, if I was not clear enough earlier. Suspension travel is adjustable on the S22 via three bolts and a bracket that is fastened to the battery box on either side. This is how the suspension links are attached to the battery box. There are a series of threaded holes so you can choose how low or high you would like to mount this bracket. It's position will ultimately determine the length of the suspension travel.

That doesn't adjust suspension travel it just adjusts pedal height, travel is always the same.

[Tawpie]

50 minutes ago, Rawnei said:

That doesn't adjust suspension travel it just adjusts pedal height, travel is always the same.

The 6 bolts (3 per side) are mounting points for the bottom pivot of the suspension linkage. Changing where they attach to the frame adjusts the geometry of the linkage and that changes the linkage leverage ratio which anecdotally affects its cushiness. It likely affects both height of the 'system' and travel as well, I sucked at geometry. I think lowering the attachment point makes the suspension 'softer'. Raising the attachment point is limited—I think you can only go up 1 set of holes (so that three empty holes are showing) before the top of the wheel or fender bumps into something.

There is a pure pedal height adjustment too, but that's moving the bracket that attaches the pedals to the battery box.

Edited November 18, 2022 by Tawpie

[Tawpie]

31 minutes ago, Tawpie said:

that changes the linkage leverage ratio which anecdotally affects its cushiness

I do wish I was better at geometry... now I'm wondering if the reported cushiness improvement (noticed with stock sliders including glue/grease) might be due to 'better' alignment of the slider system. The frame attaches to the motor off-center so there has to be some weight bias that puts more pressure on some of the slider pucks. When you change the geometry by moving the bottom pivot point, maybe the pressure distribution changes so that it's easier for the slider pucks to move?

Who knows, and I'd rather ride than experiment at this point. Springs arrived so I have something to mess with already!

 

[techyiam]

4 minutes ago, Tawpie said:

When you change the geometry by moving the bottom pivot point, maybe the pressure distribution changes so that it's easier for the slider pucks to move?

That is why roller sliders are so much better for this kind of setup.

Rolling friction vs Sliding friction.

With higher normal force, sliding friction increases proportionately. Not so for rolling friction. Without precision engineering, sliding friction isn't going to work well.

[Rawnei]

8 hours ago, Tawpie said:

The 6 bolts (3 per side) are mounting points for the bottom pivot of the suspension linkage. Changing where they attach to the frame adjusts the geometry of the linkage and that changes the linkage leverage ratio which anecdotally affects its cushiness. It likely affects both height of the 'system' and travel as well, I sucked at geometry. I think lowering the attachment point makes the suspension 'softer'. Raising the attachment point is limited—I think you can only go up 1 set of holes (so that three empty holes are showing) before the top of the wheel or fender bumps into something.

There is a pure pedal height adjustment too, but that's moving the bracket that attaches the pedals to the battery box.

It doesn't change the geometry that's a common misconception, it moves the motor up or down in the channels thus moves the whole chassis+pedals up or down, the geometry is determined from the chassis together with the link and that doesn't change, none of the angles in the link changes.

[Tawpie]

18 minutes ago, Rawnei said:

It doesn't change the geometry that's a common misconception, it moves the motor up or down in the channels thus moves the whole chassis+pedals up or down, the geometry is determined from the chassis together with the link and that doesn't change, none of the angles in the link changes.

ah, interesting. I was fooled... 

[spitfire1337]

Pulled the controller, it's version 2.3 dated 2022-01-05. Motor spins freely once disconnected. Now the waiting game begins for a replacement. 

[techyiam]

How to double someone on your S22?

 

 

[Tawpie]

4 hours ago, Rawnei said:

It doesn't change the geometry that's a common misconception, it moves the motor up or down in the channels thus moves the whole chassis+pedals up or down, the geometry is determined from the chassis together with the link and that doesn't change, none of the angles in the link changes.

Why do you think (some) people find the ride characteristics change? Self-fulfilling prophecy? I kind of don't want to go through the hassle of reconfiguring it if there's no reason to expect it to make things different, and hopefully cushier.

Edited November 19, 2022 by Tawpie

[Cerbera]

1 hour ago, techyiam said:

How to double someone on your S22?

Yep, definitely no need for helmets there

[techyiam]

4 minutes ago, Cerbera said:

Yep, definitely no need for helmets there

 

4 minutes ago, Cerbera said:

Yep, definitely no need for helmets there

Well, look at motorcycle riders in the US. Plenty of them don't wear helmets. 

[Cerbera]

14 minutes ago, techyiam said:

Well, look at motorcycle riders in the US. Plenty of them don't wear helmets. 

And good luck to 'em !  I'm not for telling anyone else what they should or shouldn't be be wearing, and indeed I didn't wear a helmet myself for the first 6 years of riding EUCs. Was merely expressing delighted bafflement that the guy who is standing up at the back and whose head is perhaps 9 ft off the ground was apparently all fine with that ! Perhaps I am forgetting what it was like to be young and invincible ! But I am curious to know how the getting on works in a double ride situation...

Edited November 19, 2022 by Cerbera

[jrhz06]

57 minutes ago, Tawpie said:

Why do you think (some) people find the ride characteristics change? Self-fulfilling prophecy? I kind of don't want to go through the hassle of reconfiguring it if there's no reason to expect it to make things different, and hopefully cushier.

The ride does change. Lowering the suspension makes the ride more stable and changes how the wheel handles but I didn’t find any noticeable difference in cushiness. I use an air shock and find the ride very comfortable, more cushy than my S18 with coil or air shock. 

[Rawnei]

7 hours ago, Tawpie said:

Why do you think (some) people find the ride characteristics change? Self-fulfilling prophecy? I kind of don't want to go through the hassle of reconfiguring it if there's no reason to expect it to make things different, and hopefully cushier.

Pedal height has quite the effect on how you perceive the ride feeling I think, I put my one notch higher (3 visible holes, 4 causes tire rubbing I hear) because I want better clearing during off-road so that's my only reason to make it higher.

Edited November 19, 2022 by Rawnei

[NErider]

On 11/18/2022 at 3:40 PM, litewave said:

I admire the persistence of you early adopters but am grateful I pulled the plug on my purchase and got a full refund just before mine shipped.

I simply did/do not have the time to deal with this ongoing drama.

Thank you all for working hard to make the S22 better for all of us.

There is definitely a LOT of drama. But you may notice that this thread has slowed down recently. Because people have received wheels and are out riding them. Myself included. Could rollers be better for suspension? Probably. But who is to say that the grime doesn't just damage rollers and the track at the same time? 

I cleaned off the "grease" from mine, and sprayed it with a Teflon lube. It's working awesome as delivered. 

I pinned my original motor, but ewheels has shipped me a new replacement motor, and all of thier customers seemed to have had the option to wait for a pre-installed pinned motor. And those are delivered by now as well. 

So really, IMO the S22 is delivering on all the hype it started with. Sherman like power and speed with huge suspension travel. 

Absolutely eclipsed my S18 in every way. 

[Tawpie]

Got a chance to hop on a couple wheels equipped with aluminum roller sliders today... it makes a big difference. A bit smoother than my reworked S18, which is pretty deluxe. @Marty Backe—I do believe you will find your car-like ride.

When the wheel material gets sorted and we know what lasts I'll be ordering a set without a doubt—I would like to see something with c-clip retainers or something that makes slider-wheel changes are more feasible. Although, first I should try adding some dry silicone lube to my dry stock system.

Rooty MTB trail riding with 3 S22s, me on the S18 (unfamiliar trail and I'm still not totally comfortable with the heavier wheel). No issues other than I couldn't keep up with them... the other riders are "highly skilled".

Edited November 21, 2022 by Tawpie

[fbhb]

3 hours ago, Tawpie said:

I would like to see something with c-clip retainers or something that makes slider-wheel changes are more feasible.

The "Original" inventor of the CNC sliders, Russian Alexander Vodnev's latest version DOES come equipped with circlips to enable removing the bearings easier for maintenance/replacement as and when required. It Also comes with felt wipers to keep any dust or grime out of the sliders.

Bear in mind that the Russian guys that pioneered this CNC solution for the sliders have now tested their respective implementations of the roller bearings for over 2,000kms+ without any significant wear to the slider rails, or the roller bearings themselves!

IIRC, Alexander Vodnev (or possibly it was Zep) ONLY found One roller bearing that needed to be replaced after long term testing, but that one roller was found to be a faulty POM outer from manufacturing that was not discovered during install.

Here is a link to the Alexander Vodnev (CNC roller/slider inventor) implementation, but of course he is based in Russia, so that's unfortunate regarding orders under the current status over from there for obvious reasons: 

Roller Installation – Telegraph

Edited November 21, 2022 by fbhb

[Rawnei]

4 hours ago, Tawpie said:

Got a chance to hop on a couple wheels equipped with aluminum roller sliders today... it makes a big difference. A bit smoother than my reworked S18, which is pretty deluxe. @Marty Backe—I do believe you will find your car-like ride.

When the wheel material gets sorted and we know what lasts I'll be ordering a set without a doubt—I would like to see something with c-clip retainers or something that makes slider-wheel changes are more feasible. Although, first I should try adding some dry silicone lube to my dry stock system.

What do you mean? For CNC sliders POM wheels are used you won't find any better material or do you mean the 3D printed option?

[Tawpie]

9 hours ago, Rawnei said:

What do you mean? For CNC sliders POM wheels are used you won't find any better material or do you mean the 3D printed option?

A bit of both actually. The current POM wheels on the machined sliders are the "best we've seen tried", but is there still room for improvement? Likewise with the 3D, I'm sure there will be someone that prints the slider and puts the wheels from the machined slides on it—how does that hold up?

I'm being cautious. I'm willing to guess that the initial reaction at KS when they built and tried the friction+glue design was positive and remained positive for a while, long enough to get the design signed off on and into production anyway. The community designs are in the 'first use outside the factory' phase, so I expect there are some lessons still to learn.

I have time. My existing setup is acceptable even though I absolutely know it could be a lot better... I have another motor in the queue so everything will come apart when that arrives and that will be a fine time to drop in another slider solution. Meantime I'm going to keep fiddling with what I have, and ride!

[techyiam]

56 minutes ago, Tawpie said:

I have time.

When making euc-related purchases, patience has often proven to be a virtue.

Being a beta tester, more often than not sucks.

If you are not in a hurry, or have the self discipline, definitely wait.

[Rawnei]

1 hour ago, Tawpie said:

A bit of both actually. The current POM wheels on the machined sliders are the "best we've seen tried", but is there still room for improvement? Likewise with the 3D, I'm sure there will be someone that prints the slider and puts the wheels from the machined slides on it—how does that hold up?

I'm being cautious. I'm willing to guess that the initial reaction at KS when they built and tried the friction+glue design was positive and remained positive for a while, long enough to get the design signed off on and into production anyway. The community designs are in the 'first use outside the factory' phase, so I expect there are some lessons still to learn.

I have time. My existing setup is acceptable even though I absolutely know it could be a lot better... I have another motor in the queue so everything will come apart when that arrives and that will be a fine time to drop in another slider solution. Meantime I'm going to keep fiddling with what I have, and ride!

Not really, you won't find better than POM wheels for CNC sliders, but why would you? They have excellent performance and durability.

For 3D printed options verdict is still out on the best material to print the wheels in, for the sliders themselves HTPLA is fine, it's the wheels that get worn out, POM would be optimal here too but it's too difficult and exotic to print so people are searching for alternatives.

[chanman]

1 hour ago, Rawnei said:

Not really, you won't find better than POM wheels for CNC sliders, but why would you? They have excellent performance and durability.

For 3D printed options verdict is still out on the best material to print the wheels in, for the sliders themselves HTPLA is fine, it's the wheels that get worn out, POM would be optimal here too but it's too difficult and exotic to print so people are searching for alternatives.

PETG seems to be the preferred wheel option now for more durability and not too awful to print. TPU should be durable but I've struggled to get working well because it compresses and I guess you have to print it slightly larger to account for that.

[Rawnei]

Just now, chanman said:

PETG seems to be the preferred wheel option now for more durability and not too awful to print. TPU should be durable but I've struggled to get working well because it compresses and I guess you have to print it slightly larger to account for that.

Both PETG and TPU are not durable enough, @supercurio is testing PA12 atm which seems promising.