Kingsong S20/S22 (Confirmed)

[fbhb]

22 minutes ago, Tawpie said:

Fingers and toes are crossed.

Hope All goes well for you and thanks for the reply on Telegram, I Fully understand your explanation there.

I am much the same as you in really wanting an S22 but have put it on hold until the obvious issues are behind us.

Although even then I Still plan to Fully strip and change All fasteners, change to roller sliders and some form of dust protection, check for pinned motor if still required!

No chance in my part of the world for a deal like yours to come up, having ONLY the much smaller scale Roll.NZ as our solitary source of EUCs, unfortunately 

 

Edited November 5, 2022 by fbhb

[Tawpie]

9 minutes ago, fbhb said:

strip and change All fasteners

That'll also happen, but not until it reaches "keeper" status!

[supercurio]

11 hours ago, Paul A said:

Would ex-Jack King Song still have a direct line to KS?  Or anyone else.
Be great if KS could just assemble the S22 with the best available sliders.

Direct line you said? 😉 Take a look here:
https://t.me/s_EUC/31371
https://t.me/s_EUC/31378

[redfoxdude]

Moving in the right direction, that is very exciting indeed!

[techyiam]

1 hour ago, supercurio said:

Direct line you said? 😉 Take a look here:

Thanks for sharing the link.

It looks they were able to reduce stiction by a considerable amount, but I couldn't really  make out whether they were using roller sliders or not.

[supercurio]

9 hours ago, techyiam said:

Thanks for sharing the link.
It looks they were able to reduce stiction by a considerable amount, but I couldn't really  make out whether they were using roller sliders or not.

Yes it's their 2nd prototype of rollers sliders, which allow to get this fantastic low stiction and friction. We got them extra motivated last month by sharing details of the 3D printed and CNC aluminum rollers, showing how well they perform without changing anything else.

I don't know yet if KS version will be compatible with the current battery boxes, but unless it is required to make breaking changes to reinforce the battery boxes and rails (they have some flex), my recommendation to them is to do so in order to be able to offer official suspension upgrade kits.

Alexander Vodnev, the inventor of the CNC rollers concept was super happy to see this prototype in action as his goal is to have as many people as possible enjoy how great this suspension can be.

Edited November 6, 2022 by supercurio

[Paul A]

@supercurio Very nice work, thanks for all your efforts. 

Glad KS is taking an interest in your advocacy on everyone's behalf.

[Tawpie]

On 11/3/2022 at 5:55 PM, KNZ said:

Good luck, @Tawpie! Keep us in the loop…

All pre-launch activity completed and the oompaloompa has entered service! Only one fastener that wasn't tight to my taste... torqued everything I could get to. Degreased (there wasn't much, if we were liking the grease I'd be complaining I was shorted. what was there was already turning to glue—must be oxidation or something reacting with the 'grease'), sliders aligned, dust protection installed, spring changed out, strenco liberally applied.

So far it's very nice! Heavy though, discovered if it starts to slip out sideways it's not yet possible for me to recover. It'll be a couple hundred miles before I'm comfortable, my muscle memory is tuned to much lighter wheels. I guess that's what winter riding is for... skills practice.

And no strange noises from the motor! (yet, I am listening very carefully)

[techyiam]

2 hours ago, Tawpie said:

So far it's very nice! Heavy though, discovered if it starts to slip out sideways it's not yet possible for me to recover.

First impression wise, how would you compare your S22 right now to your Sherman. Do you find one perceived to be heavier or more difficult to ride?

[Tawpie]

Sherman feels a lot different than S22. Sherman has very low pedals and because everything is lower I think its weight is a bit deceiving. I pulled up to a stop and half-dismounted with my foot a bit further away than usual and dang if I couldn't keep the wheel upright without a quick grab. It was too heavy for me to counterbalance with my on-pedal foot. It's really nice and stable and wants to go straight, but at a stop it feels really heavy and kind of tippy.

S22 doesn't have the same feeling at stops. For whatever reason, I can come to a dead stop nearly perfectly balanced, something that neither Sherman nor any of my other wheels let me do. It's probably rider caused, or the tire, but so far I haven't had that "omg the blasted thing is going to fall over" feeling... I get that a lot on the Sherman. S22 is wider and the pedals are wider too so it's a bit of a goofy straddle when I'm standing over it and it mounts more like getting on a horse (big step up and forward with a wide swing of the ground leg), Sherman isn't as tall or wide so it's quite a bit easier to mount.

Keep in mind that I weigh basically nothing so I have to employ exaggerated techniques on the heavy wheels. I didn't ride the Sherman very much (lots of reasons) and have basically zero time on the oompaloompa so I'm very much in the learner phase on S22. It is a very heavy wheel, but at least for me in the early going it doesn't 'feel' as heavy as it is. Definitely doesn't feel as heavy as the Sherman... that is and feels like a tank.

[techyiam]

Thank you very much for your detailed and descriptive first impression.

8 hours ago, Tawpie said:

Sherman feels a lot different than S22. Sherman has very low pedals and because everything is lower I think its weight is a bit deceiving. I pulled up to a stop and half-dismounted with my foot a bit further away than usual and dang if I couldn't keep the wheel upright without a quick grab. It was too heavy for me to counterbalance with my on-pedal foot. It's really nice and stable and wants to go straight, but at a stop it feels really heavy and kind of tippy.

Interestingly enough, after hoping on one at EEVEES, my first impression of the Sherman was very similar to yours. Both the EX.N and Commander felt much easier to manage. However, I believe with time, one should be able to build the required muscle strength, and subsequently be able to balance it with ease. Nevertheless, this Sherman first impression has been holding me back from adding one to my small collection. I fully reslized that whatever new wheel I get will require adaptation. But, I rather choose one that I feel is more to my liking. Incidentally, MS CRUSHER sold her Sherman Max shortly after she bought it and raved about it. She returned back to her EX.N HS. I think there are those who will jive with it, and those who won't. It's simply as that. If you haven't already, whenever you are in Vancouver, you should try out the various demo wheels available at EEVEES. You are now a customer of theirs. 

 

8 hours ago, Tawpie said:

S22 doesn't have the same feeling at stops. For whatever reason, I can come to a dead stop nearly perfectly balanced, something that neither Sherman nor any of my other wheels let me do. It's probably rider caused, or the tire, but so far I haven't had that "omg the blasted thing is going to fall over" feeling... I get that a lot on the Sherman. S22 is wider and the pedals are wider too so it's a bit of a goofy straddle when I'm standing over it and it mounts more like getting on a horse (big step up and forward with a wide swing of the ground leg), Sherman isn't as tall or wide so it's quite a bit easier to mount.

I had a hard time with the width of the S22, because I didn't realize at the time to move my feet out more, and ride it bow legged; so I struggled a bit at first. At slow speeds, I thought both the S22 and the Master felt fine at slow speeds. The pedal height of both wheels didn't bother me. I think it could have been because I was already accustomed to high pedal height on the V12.

8 hours ago, Tawpie said:

Keep in mind that I weigh basically nothing so I have to employ exaggerated techniques on the heavy wheels. I didn't ride the Sherman very much (lots of reasons) and have basically zero time on the oompaloompa so I'm very much in the learner phase on S22. It is a very heavy wheel, but at least for me in the early going it doesn't 'feel' as heavy as it is. Definitely doesn't feel as heavy as the Sherman... that is and feels like a tank.

Body mass is certainly a factor. However, I think your employing of exaggerated techniques on heavy wheels may only be temporary. When I first got my V12, I thought that all the extra effort required would be the price I have to pay in order to ride a more refined, faster, and heavier wheel. But after some months, to my surprise, I grew accustomed to the V12, and no longer did it take any extra effort. And ironically, the T3 became feeling too light and filmsy. 

If you ever get a chance, try the Hero. Not only does it have a premium feel, although it weighs 80 lbs, it rides lighter and requires less effort than the S22 and Master. It felt very balanced. 

Edited November 7, 2022 by techyiam

[techyiam]

I have been looking at various dealer websites that list their best selling wheels in descending order, I noticed that the S22 is always one of the best sellers, even though the S22 is plagued with some early batch issues, which are widely acknowledged now.

So, I ponder whether Kingsong got the S22 spec sheet basically correct, but got the execution wrong.             

 

Edited November 7, 2022 by techyiam

[mrelwood]

3 minutes ago, techyiam said:

So, I ponder whether Kingsong got the S22 spec sheet basically correct, but got the execution wrong.     

Hmm. Sounds quite like the S18… I see a pattern emerging!

[Tawpie]

6 hours ago, techyiam said:

If you ever get a chance, try the Hero.

I don't need to fall in love with any more wheels! I might have gone hero honestly, if I didn't object to its looks so much. I'm just not a fan of the BG design.

 

2 hours ago, techyiam said:

I ponder whether Kingsong got the S22 spec sheet basically correct, but got the execution wrong.

It's kind of a common theme with EUCs these days...

 

6 hours ago, techyiam said:

However, I believe with time, one should be able to build the required muscle strength, and subsequently be able to balance it with ease.

Agree without doubt. Everyone slams KS's learner mode speed restriction and it is annoying to be sure, but certainly for me it was good to basically force me to spend time retraining the muscles. Only been out a couple of times but improvement has been massive so hopefully the learning curve will be short. I'm equally certain that with the same amount of skills-building (probably less) I would be fine with the Sherman—first mount on that was youtube quality. Lots of tight circles, turning on wet grass/mud, mount from crazy foot positions etc. etc.! Only 5 months to go before spring so gotta be ready.

 

6 hours ago, techyiam said:

If you haven't already, whenever you are in Vancouver, you should try out the various demo wheels available at EEVEES.

I popped into the store shortly after they opened! Had to see what a real brick-and-mortar PEV store looked and felt like. It's nice, not in the best feeling location but the store itself is well done. Now that I am a customer I'll surely stop by again, it's not too far from where I stay when visiting.

Edited November 7, 2022 by Tawpie

[Paul A]

King Song S22 CNC Sliders - Install Time!

Lando Cycle

Nov 7, 2022

 

[Rawnei]

He did it the hard way. 😅

After disconnecting batteries all you have to do is loosen top two screws in suspension and you can slide motor out together with the controller attached no need to disconnect motor cable, super fast and efficient and no need to re-apply silicone on the motor cable cover, takes 5-10 minutes total.

[Paul A]

Just seems daft that thousands of dollars are paid, and then have to fix a new wheel.

[Rawnei]

3 minutes ago, Paul A said:

Just seems daft that thousands of dollars are paid, and then have to fix a new wheel.

Same for a lot of wheels that are sold today.

[Tawpie]

26 minutes ago, Paul A said:

Just seems daft that thousands of dollars are paid, and then have to fix a new wheel.

I think about it as: I can make this better thanks to the hard work and cleverness of the community. Most all new gen wheels are functional as is (they are wheels, they have all of the parts to charge and balance and operate), but by investing a little effort and a few hundred dollars they can be improved. Sometimes vastly improved.

I mean, think about power pads and spiked pedals—now we're at least getting an attempt at "necessary" add on items, but there are certainly better options available.

[Paul A]

Small modifications are fine.

Sliders are a major, inherent attribute of the KS S22. 

Just seems to be never ending problems from manufacturers, across models, of quality, design, testing, materials, whatever, etc...

 

[Rawnei]

We see small blunders all the time, but for improving the wheels mechanically it's really not just the S22, look at the Master, you need new linkage and shock to make it decent, that's not a trivial amount of money and time to invest, in fact more than twice as expensive as the S22 CNC sliders and even then you are still stuck with only about half the suspension travel on the Master compared, I own both so I know this from experience.

But one can also see it as growing pains as part of the transition to suspension wheels, they don't get it perfect right away but eventually we will have standards.

[That Guy]

Have you guys watched the latest Sherman-S "Stress Test" by eevee's? They managed to overheat the S22... Is it because of the rider's weight?

https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxTo1k4PBt0mfSwaHSSMHX70PKyObzFat7

(Master was also heated up quite a lot.)

 

[Paul A]

Yes.  

Early adopters are the guinea pigs.  

How is it possible/acceptable that Gotway/Begode release the Master when the main component of linkage and shock is so low quality...

 

It's like Charlie Brown forever trusting Lucy to hold the football.

[techyiam]

13 minutes ago, That Guy said:

Have you guys watched the latest Sherman-S "Stress Test" by eevee's? They managed to overheat the S22... Is it because of the rider's weight?

Apparently, Ginger-On-Wheels (I hope I got this right), is 220 lbs.? Someone mentioned also that maybe after a disassembly, thermal paste wasn't reapplied.

Hard to say, since, supposedly, the thermal stress test was quite gruesome. 

What was surprising was how cool the Master Pro ran, and how hot the motor ran on the S22.

Edited November 7, 2022 by techyiam

[techyiam]

Begode is squeezed between a rock and a hard place. If they make a higher quality wheel and charge accordingly, people will balk.