Limiting velocity

[DrBytes]

I need to be able to have my wheel cut off or stay at a determined speed --or better yet, put it into a kind of limp mode by ways of a mechanical switch. I cannot have it shut shut off and do nothing. H

Has anyone heard of a way to do this ?

[Chriull]

17 minutes ago, DrBytes said:

. I cannot have it shut shut off and do nothing.

Seems you mean an overlean? Which just feels like the wheel shutting off.

More details in https://forum.electricunicycle.org/topic/7855-anatomy-of-an-overlean/?tab=comments#comment-107721

 

[Tawpie]

you can set the max speed in EUC world, and also in most of the vendor apps. That'll cause the wheel to tilt back and KS wheels will yell at you. It won't cut out, but you'll have to be determined to go faster (ride the beeps)

[DrBytes]

No... that won't work. I need to get it into a sort of limp mode so that it's just crippled or something.

Here's the thing, in my country we're allowed to use them on the road but they aren't allowed to go faster than 16mph I'd be absolutely fine with that if it weren't for the way they test the top speed: they put the wheel on a rollerbank which means the wheel is basically spinning free.

My wheel would clock 50mph or around that --> that's an instant confiscation and an invitation to a courthouse at some date.
So the means of determining the top speed of the wheel is flawed: no load, no wind resistance etc.

So what could I do to put the wheel in some kind of limp mode

[.....]

hmmm, thats a great question. Since eucw has to be loaded for its 'compliance' mode, that won't help. It sounds to me like youll need to limit the power drastically. 16mph on a sherman under free spin, is gna be tough to do. I dont think youll even be able to put a safe 'dummy load' in it. Having means to enable limp mode BEFORE its turned on, would mean some kind of software revision I think. It may be tough to get the code or reverse engineer it. An external switch to change 'modes' would also have to be software programmed. Maybe I'm missing a simple solution, but i think you're definitely playing with fire.  MAYBE you could set it to autolock somehow and REQUIRE eucw to unlock it, while you enable 'compliance' at same time? It would be tough to convince anyone that has tested a few of these, that your 80lb wheel is good for 16mph. I know, tests and evidence and all that, but its an expensive dice to roll. Im really curious if ANYONE has any ideas. We can just assume this is hypothetical, as something like this MAY be in the grey area of legalities, depending on any policies regarding tampering with devices.

Edited March 27, 2021 by ShanesPlanet

[null]

1 hour ago, DrBytes said:

No... that won't work. I need to get it into a sort of limp mode so that it's just crippled or something.

Here's the thing, in my country we're allowed to use them on the road but they aren't allowed to go faster than 16mph I'd be absolutely fine with that if it weren't for the way they test the top speed: they put the wheel on a rollerbank which means the wheel is basically spinning free.

My wheel would clock 50mph or around that --> that's an instant confiscation and an invitation to a courthouse at some date.
So the means of determining the top speed of the wheel is flawed: no load, no wind resistance etc.

So what could I do to put the wheel in some kind of limp mode

The only way it doesn't spin fasten than 25Km/h is to let you fall at that speed. Such a function isn't implemented in Firmware because nobody sane of mind would want such a thing.. (I know its not you..)

You'd have to ask someone who hack firmware to make a custom version for you, and AFAIK there is only for Ninebot and maybe some inMotion 🤷🏼

Edited March 27, 2021 by null

[DrBytes]

We are allowed to tinker with it, because it hasn't passed any uniformity test to classify it's capabilities. But the day these things come with a rated power output or a velocity at x load number as determined by the dept. of transport, only then we're no longer allowed to change anything.

In that sense, we're also indirectly responsible for the speed of the thing, even if we just ordered it online/bought it in a shop or.. built it ourselves.

Firmware.. yes .. maybe there's a way to change the value of a temperature probe and make the firmware freak out. Or spoof the hallsensor feedback using pwm and a mini arduino. Spoof the voltage so it'll raise the pedals aggressivly. No clue..

 

 

[yoos]

Does the Sherman have a trolley sensor/mode? (Not a lift sensor but a trolley sensor engaging a weak and slow mode that is enough for trolleying but too limp to ride). If so, perhaps you could install a weight load sensor (to sense whether there is a rider on the wheel) and add it to the trolley sensor circuit. The wheel would always be in the limp trolley mode when without rider. However, I am afraid there is no trolley mode on the Sherman. 

[johnyz89]

They should also start confiscating cars which can be driven above top speed limit in your place... that sucks totally. Can't understand why laws are so stupid and behind modern life.

[mrelwood]

Even if you set the max speed to 1mph, what all wheels do when reaching the set speed is to accelerate until the pedals tilt a certain amount. Since the police officer is holding the wheel in an accelerating position, it will still accelerate all the way to the no-load speed.

And this is not a quirk or a thoughtless implementation, it’s what the wheel absolutely must do in order to keep the rider balanced. And tilting back is the only way to limit the riding speed of an EUC.

What you maybe could do is make a (extremely dangerous!) switch for the lift cut-off switch. When the wheel won’t operate on the rollerbank, you could say that it requires the rider’s weight in order to function.

 

I seem to recall that maybe a year or so ago this very issue was present in an EUC confiscation. Sanity won after all, and the owner’s explanation about how balancing absolutely must function this way for the vehicle to be safe to operate was correctly understood.

 Have you checked that they still test self-balancing vehicles with a rollerbank? Since this behavior is identical in all of them.

 One could check the actual legal text as well. Does it say that the tire of the vehicle is not allowed to spin faster than x, or that the vehicle can’t be able to be ridden faster than x? I would think that it’d be the latter, while a rollerbank only tests for the former. Still, explaining this to a judge or anyone really would probably take a lot of time before you’d get the wheel back.

[null]

34 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

Have you checked that they still test self-balancing vehicles with a rollerbank? Since this behavior is identical in all of them.

In his country they do, here they confiscated a Sherman for doing 89Km/h on a roller bank. According to some comments later on this isn't the only one.

(Source , non FB source) The reply from the police is that the riders had been seen behaving improperly before that. I'm all fine they take action for whatever the first offence was, but if free spin count as top speed you are always in the wrong and just depend of an officers mood no matter how you behave.

Or you must ride a EUC that drops you at 25 Km/h.

 

Edited March 27, 2021 by null

[.....]

5 hours ago, yoos said:

Does the Sherman have a trolley sensor/mode? (Not a lift sensor but a trolley sensor engaging a weak and slow mode that is enough for trolleying but too limp to ride). If so, perhaps you could install a weight load sensor (to sense whether there is a rider on the wheel) and add it to the trolley sensor circuit. The wheel would always be in the limp trolley mode when without rider. However, I am afraid there is no trolley mode on the Sherman. 

No it doesnt(afaik). I can ride up to 50mph with the trolley handle up. I can yank around on the handle and it doesnt care. I am betting there isnt a single sensor attributed to the trolley.

Edited March 27, 2021 by ShanesPlanet

[null]

17 minutes ago, ShanesPlanet said:

No it doesnt(afaik). I can ride up to 50mph with the trolley handle up. I can yank around on the handle and it doesnt care. I am betting there isnt a single sensor attributed to the trolley.

Yep, zero lift sensor and nothing going to the handle. Whether it exists undocumented on the control board is a possibility, but even then it is much more likely to be a simple motor cut switch, and not some intermediate mode like the S18 has. 

[DrBytes]

I'll admit that the report referenced by @null of the Brussels Police confiscating the sherman spurred the inception of this thread. However, I got to nose around in the non FB link and there was a response of the police that I missed; the riders were behaving like morons and were stopped because of it.

What troubles me is that they claim to have checked the website of LeaperKim and based upon that they confiscated it. The rollerbank is just to get an indication of the speed.

So what is it then? Are they frustrated that they can't speedcheck the riders and so when they see ppl going too fast on e-scooters/euc they have to find *some* way to get accidents-waiting-to-happen off the road?

I'm not against that either.

I wished they just stopped being so goddang vague about it and just slapp limitations on the fleshbag's velocity no matter what they are sitting/standing on.

[Dgtreble]

impossible without programming knowledge

[.....]

16 minutes ago, Dgtreble said:

impossible without programming knowledge

WHich then begs the question: How complex is the program in these wheels?

Im a total idiot about programs, so its virtually impossible for me. However, perhaps its not TOO difficult in the grand scheme of skilled programmers. Wouldnt it be OH SO NICE for those people in places with restrictions, to be able contact a 3rd party for a firmware with such possibilities. Perhaps make default VERY slow and it takes a triple power button press to get right on trucking! Of course, its almost pointless if they SEE you going 30mph, as if theyll probably confiscate for 'further testing'.

Edited March 29, 2021 by ShanesPlanet

[WI_Hedgehog]

The wheel controller is difficult to program. It took years (and lots of investment) for Segway to figure out the mathematical formulas needed to make a self-balancing two-wheel personal transporter practical. Based on Segway's existing technology it took a computer engineer several more years to adapt the concept to a unicycle, resulting in several models from Focus Designs and later Solowheel. (read more)

On 3/27/2021 at 10:25 AM, mrelwood said:

Even if you set the max speed to 1mph, what all wheels do when reaching the set speed is to accelerate until the pedals tilt a certain amount. Since the police officer is holding the wheel in an accelerating position, it will still accelerate all the way to the no-load speed.

And this is not a quirk or a thoughtless implementation, it’s what the wheel absolutely must do in order to keep the rider balanced. And tilting back is the only way to limit the riding speed of an EUC.

As @mrelwood points out, the wheel must "outrun" the rider and "tilt them back" to slow them down. If the speed limit is 10 MPH, the wheel might start to "outrun" the rider at 8 MPH and start tilting the rider back. As the rider tries to tilt forward more the wheel might accelerate to 10 MPH and "outrun the rider's tilt" to force the rider into a rear-leaning tilt, then slow itself down. The key to this is the wheel must outrun the rider so the rider doesn't fall off the front of the wheel.

The police test is therefore completely flawed as they are forcing the safety tiltback (braking) mechanism of the wheel to overspeed during the wheel's attempt to slow the wheel down.

Edited March 29, 2021 by WI_Hedgehog