Ireland on the way to being PEV friendly

[Planemo]

Not sure if this has been posted already, but what a stellar move by Ireland. Glad to see they havent got their head up their asses like the UK:

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/consumer/legislation-to-regulate-use-of-e-scooters-and-e-bikes-to-be-introduced-1.4473435?mode=amp&fbclid=IwAR2n2vDe6H3zu6jrM0w7p-7awRZ7nTD2oeX_aMHUQRtJ0jAMSFB2wYjf9BM

Edit sorry posted in wrong section and cant seem to move it...

Edited February 4, 2021 by Planemo

[meepmeepmayer]

Let me guess:

• 25kph speed limit (must be hardware limited), aka useless, even a bike is better
• Ridiculous, unneeded motor power limits, and overly complicated class/vehicle type distictions, just because
• Empty promises of allowing more powerful PEVs later

I've seen it before...

Mediocre is the enemy of good. I'd rather have nothing than "but we already legalized PEVs, what else do you want?" excuse laws.

[NickNonsense]

15mph. Your regular bicycle is doing more than this on bicycle paths around me thats shared with pedestrians. 

I ride the cycle path along the bay and sometimes it hard to keep up with most of them. 

15mph is just not fast enough to be safe on the road unless your living in a city that's in constant grid lock. 

[Gasmantle]

I guess Irelands approach could be seen as a step in the right direction but really it's little more than minor tinkering with the laws to placate a few placard waving eco types.

 

[Bumblebees]

Good move by Ireland.  25kph is a decent speed while riding seated.  It is to slow for a standing speed.  Perhaps the speed limit will eventually get tweaked in the future if riders ride responsibly. 

[Rawnei]

In reality speed limit will be useful to regulate within city cores where there is a lot of people and traffic, outside the city cores I doubt they are going to clock you so there won't be much burden of proof and I don't think they will bother either unless someone blasts really fast when not appropriate.

[Planemo]

Well I think its bloody excellent. We can bitch about the 15.5mph limit but lets be realistic about this. Anything over that will lead into motor vehicle catagories (and legislation). No one in their right mind is going to allow a 40mph+ one wheeled vehicle on the road, and even if you could insure it I bet it would cost a fortune. I can almost see the insurance sharks rubbing their hands together as I type.

For me, what Ireland has planned is awesome. At the moment we stick out like a baboons arse, ripe pickings for any passing copper. With Irelands plans, all that would go away. And I doubt many coppers would bother you even if you were doing 20 or 25mph. 40 might still push them over the edge though..

[Planemo]

20 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

I'd rather have nothing

Really? I would much rather have the ability to legally do 15.5mph without risking a £400 fine, 6 points on my licence, 3 of which would be for no insurance which would totally cripple me for years to come when buying my car insurance.

At worst, with 15mph being legal I imagine being caught at 25mph would be no more than a grovelling apology by the rider and a ticking off by the copper.

I honestly dont know what some of you guys expect? To be legal all the way to 50mph?

[NickNonsense]

Well, my thoughts when writing that, was a speed of around 20mph would be more realistic. A lot of urban areas are now 20mph zones. To safely keep up with traffic on the road I think it would need to be a little more than the 15.5mph. 
Overall though you are absolutely right @Planemo, this this great news for Ireland and is certainly a step in the right direction.

[mhpr262]

22 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Let me guess:

• 25kph speed limit (must be hardware limited), aka useless, even a bike is better
• Ridiculous, unneeded motor power limits, and overly complicated class/vehicle type distictions, just because
• Empty promises of allowing more powerful PEVs later

 

What an incorrigible optimist you are.

If EUCs are ever made legal in Germany I foresee ...

- 20km/h max, with 100% certainty, on a level with e-scooters

- yes, ridiculous motor power limits, depsite the fact that this would make the vehicle more UNsafe with the sped limit already in place

- "promises of allowing more powerful EVs later"?!?!  Hahahah, like they give a fuck. They wont even bother with promises.

Edited February 5, 2021 by mhpr262

[Planemo]

3 hours ago, NickNonsense said:

Well, my thoughts when writing that, was a speed of around 20mph would be more realistic.

I get your point but with ebikes limited to 15.5 and not struggling with safety in traffic (excluding the always present myopic idiots) I cant see any reason why we could ask for more. Unless you are saying the ebike limit should be raised as well..

And personally I dont think 20 makes any difference. If anything it would be worse in 30mph zones as the cars will simply take longer to squeeze and get round you. And with the amount of divs that mis-judge an overtake at even 15mph, good luck when you're doing 20. A minimum of 30 (to keep up with cars in 30 zones) would be my choice, anything less than that and I think 15 is probably the safest whilst still being able to get around.

But then 30 would take us into full moped legislation territory..numberplates and all. I cant imagine how crap our wheels would look with regulation sized plates stuck on the back..

[.....]

If I put a little dolly wheel on a rope and drug it behind me, would it put me in the 2 wheel classes? Tweaking laws and missing the mark... hmmm is this a good thing, or like others mentioned... tossing the dog a meager bone so he'll shut up? Differential speed kills more than the stated speed itself. Limit me to slower than traffic and Im thinking its bloody murder.

Edited February 5, 2021 by ShanesPlanet

[Gasmantle]

To be honest I think will all these new PEV's coming on the market and need for governments to come up with some realistic ruling on their use / legality etc it's time for some form of unique registration.

Obviously a standard sized number plate isn't an option but I'd have thought some small uniquely numbered plate could be attached to all PEVs (including Ecycles) and that could then be used to register the vehicle to a specific owner and pave the way toward insurance etc.

My guess is at the moment a lot of the public are opposed to PEV's because they are unregulated, uninsured and not seen as 'real' vehicles. Once you have some sort of traceability, insurance and possibly even a small road tax they will start to viewed more seriously.

I can't speak for everyone but if registration / insurance etc was to strengthen the case for legalisation at realistic speeds with sensible laws I'd happily comply.

[.....]

laws, registration, rules, always the answer

[GothamMike]

How about major fines for riding on Sidewalks? Stick to bike lanes and streets.

[.....]

44 minutes ago, GothamMike said:

How about major fines for riding on Sidewalks? Stick to bike lanes and streets.

No thanks. Riding at a max of 12mph on my mten and having ZERO bike lanes in my area. What you propose is endangering myself and people in cars, MUCH more than peaceably riding along pedestrians. How many fatalities are actualy attirbuted to pedestrians being hit by bicycles? How many fatalities are attributed to pedestrians and bicycles being hit by cars? Responsible riding and murphy's law seem a much better solution than draconian laws and deep pocket books. Perhaps Ireland is different and they have proper bike lanes EVERYWHERE? Turning us into criminals doesnt float my boat. Laws won't fix the problem of common sense.

Edited February 5, 2021 by ShanesPlanet

[mike_bike_kite]

I'd be happy with insurance as TBH I feel a bit exposed without it. Then ideally have a 2 tier system where there's no restrictions on 15mph wheels but require riders of 30mph wheels to have insurance, a driving license and a helmet. If you're riding at night then you have to have lights front and back. Obviously Shane won't like it but then he won't like any rules at all so there's no point looking for a compromise  Anyway, the rules tend to be country specific.

Here in the UK the police can confiscate your wheel, give you 6 points and a £200 fine because you're riding without insurance but insurance isn't available. All this despite they're wanting to get rid of petrol cars in the next decade and the prime minister openly saying he approved of PEV's. Go figure!

[.....]

25 minutes ago, mike_bike_kite said:

I'd be happy with insurance as TBH I feel a bit exposed without it. Then ideally have a 2 tier system where there's no restrictions on 15mph wheels but require riders of 30mph wheels to have insurance, a driving license and a helmet. If you're riding at night then you have to have lights front and back. Obviously Shane won't like it but then he won't like any rules at all so there's no point looking for a compromise  Anyway, the rules tend to be country specific.

Here in the UK the police can confiscate your wheel, give you 6 points and a £200 fine because you're riding without insurance but insurance isn't available. All this despite they're wanting to get rid of petrol cars in the next decade and the prime minister openly saying he approved of PEV's. Go figure!

Fair enough. You make me chuckle. All I know is that in USA, we have TONS of laws about cars and nowadays everyone has to have insurance and licenses. Oddly enough, fatality rates continue to climb. Online drivers testing and not even verifying a person is a citizen, give me a break! Cell phones and gps and window stickers and lack of skill is more rampant now than ever. Rules and fines dont equate to safety. What are we more worried about, injuries, or is it just simply about the money? How in the world would insurance on an euc, make it ANY safer? I was just talking to the wife about our insurance on vehicles. We've invested nearly $10k in car insurance in the last decade and I dont even own 10K worth of cars. Ironically, that $10k I've spent doesnt entitle ME to repairs, only the people I hit. So Im paying out the ass for everyone else's benefit, as they text and drive and scream about ME needing more laws to control MY behavior.  Hearing about how other countries have already given in to the GOVT to allow them steal property over a slight infraction, scares me. If it works over there, eventually that bullshit will come over here. Its all about the $$ with a side order of fear to justify it. PEV friendly to me= no need of mentioning it at all. Just like roller skates..... In the end, insurance will be all encompasing. If you leave the house, you could be dangerous and therefor need insured for ANYTHING you may do that day. Imagine the grading/billing scale for that. Point systems for every activity and tracking of your every move, just so we can ascertain how much $$ you have to pay to live your life.

Edited February 5, 2021 by ShanesPlanet

[mike_bike_kite]

You pay the insurance to help protect others, it's not supposed to be for your benefit!  

I've ridden motorbikes just about everywhere in the US and found the driving out there to be some of the safest in the world. It's not because they're better drivers, they're not, it's because they don't try and kill you out of sheer frustration. Just today in London, in a 20 min drive to get supplies, I had one car get bored being behind a learner driver and overtake into the oncoming traffic which was all forced to swerve out the way. Then 5 mins later I went round a roundabout (gyratory?) to find a scooter (small motorbike) riding down the wrong side of the road straight into my path and then squeeze between me and the pavement - I have absolutely no idea what he was up to. With the drivers we have round here, I want insurance!

[Planemo]

12 hours ago, ShanesPlanet said:

So Im paying out the ass for everyone else's benefit, as they text and drive and scream about ME needing more laws to control MY behavior.  Hearing about how other countries have already given in to the GOVT to allow them steal property over a slight infraction,

I do get your nomadic, off-grid views but ultimately when you live among others you have to have rules otherwise it's anarchy. I truly, desperately wish it wasn't that way but I have little faith in the majority of humans on this planet to behave themselves or do the right thing. The Covid situation has proved beyond all doubt to me that far too many people only think about themselves and their freedoms.

If people want to live on their Jack Jones in the wild then I have no issue with them filling their boots. They can ride EUCs all day at 50mph, drink till they fall over and drive what they like without any documentation to speak of. But when we live with others, unfortunately rules come into play. If someone drives into my car and puts me in a wheelchair I have very little doubt that they would have the required funds to allow me to live my life as normally as possible. Even if they did, actually getting it out of them is another matter.

Insurance is just one rule that, whichever way you look at it, is necessary in a big community. No one is saying insurance is saving lives, but without it we would all be living much shittier ones, having our lives wrecked financially by another humans incompetence when it goes wrong.

I do take your point that if we removed insurance and legislation, making people personally liable, they would drive far more carefully. But that doesn't help when the inevitable still does happen and you are left trying to get some $$$ out of some bum who hasn't got a pot to piss in. There are many, many people who don't have 5k sitting in their bank account for a rainy day, let alone what would be required for a lifelong injury and the write-off of a 30k+ vehicle.

In a barbaric way, I'm kinda looking forward to having fully automated travel. Humans are just too shit at not crashing into things.

And comparing a Sherman to a pair of roller skates in terms of legislation...I think you've been adding something to your rizla old boy

I think you just need to move to the River of No Return Wilderness in Idaho before you explode

 

[Planemo]

13 hours ago, mike_bike_kite said:

Here in the UK the police can confiscate your wheel, give you 6 points and a £200 fine 

It's actually £300 per offence (driving without licence, driving without insurance). Anyone that gets less than that got a result. My riding buddy got £400 - the judge took a little pity (a little, not much...). At least the charming police officer didn't confiscate his wheel - a great show of discretion when you are about to bust someone 6 points and £400 for riding an EUC...

[mike_bike_kite]

It's weird, I'm 57 and just about remember when police were there to protect the public and catch criminals. These days the criminals seem quite hard to catch so they just prosecute the public instead. The Nik+ I'd ordered is stuck in warehouse in Europe. I've now asked for my money back as I can't see the point in buying a better wheel in this environment.

[Planemo]

59 minutes ago, mike_bike_kite said:

It's weird, I'm 57 and just about remember when police were there to protect the public and catch criminals.

The thing is, the police would argue that they are protecting the public. From those nasty escooters and one wheeled machines that 'almost hit me at speed'. It's a shame, the general public hate PEV's, at least here in the stuck-up UK. One look at any escooter advert on FaceAche tells you all you need to know about how much the snowflake public despises these 'illegal weapons of war'. 

59 minutes ago, mike_bike_kite said:

The Nik+ I'd ordered is stuck in warehouse in Europe. I've now asked for my money back as I can't see the point in buying a better wheel in this environment.

Sorry to hear you cancelled, I was hoping it would turn up with you any day now. But I do understand your frustration. Waiting 6 weeks for each of my wheels was hard enough.

[mike_bike_kite]

1 hour ago, Planemo said:

The thing is, the police would argue that they are protecting the public. From those nasty escooters and one wheeled machines that 'almost hit me at speed'. It's a shame, the general public hate PEV's, at least here in the stuck-up UK. One look at any escooter advert on FaceAche tells you all you need to know about how much the snowflake public despises these 'illegal weapons of war'. 

I accept your point and I can't blame people for objecting when you see the way some idiots ride. In all honesty, if they're going to ride at speed around pedestrians then I'd feel the same way. But, if I'm riding carefully on the road, should I be tarred with the same brush?

[.....]

15 hours ago, Planemo said:

I think you just need to move to the River of No Return Wilderness in Idaho before you explode

 

All good points. Idaho, my ass! I already have it better than that. Hopefully even moving more remotely in the near future tho. Just a bus or two of hippies is all it takes to make me angry and want to move. I don't call it Shanesplanet for nuthin'. Now if we can only keep the population in check, I can find my next hideaway and avoid the reality and embrace my bubble of forcefull ignorance