Sales forum ethics?

[someguy152]

did a bit of r^sesearch and it seems that the money is taken from ur account back to them.  Even if paypal tells the buyer to ship the item back, it seems the buyer can just send an empty box as long as he uploads tracking info.

This makes me paranoid to sell high value items as it seems too heavily favored in terms of the buyer.

paypal's seller protection (if im reading right) only protects for chargebacks stemming from unathourized usage of credit, and item not recieved but not "item significantly not as described"

also    a good point someone brought up was if you buy one ebay, the buyer has 3 chances to screw the seller over, once with ebay, once with paypal, and then once with their credit card company.

[.....]

1 hour ago, someguy152 said:

also    a good point someone brought up was if you buy one ebay, the buyer has 3 chances to screw the seller over, once with ebay, once with paypal, and then once with their credit card company.

On the flip side, a seller has THE FIRST CHANCE to send an item not as described or a box of bricks. The seller is also the one that typically stands to profit from the transaction(I couldnt count the number of times I received an item described in MUCH better condition than received, its so common and typically I just keep the item anyhow).Hell, I've bought things described as 'mint' and still required me open it to clean and repair it.  I don't know the stats, but i bet getting screwed goes both ways more evenly than it seems. In the end, a transaction requires a fair amount of trust from both parties. Usually I just cross my fingers and hope for the best. I refuse to sell something to a stranger, IF I absolutely couldnt accept a total loss. Roll the dice... but don't play if you can't afford snake eyes..  At least on ebay, you can review history. I protect my seller rating and take losses to do so. This rating is THE ONLY thing buyers have (and sellers) that can ease worry or help in a claim where facts are hard to verify.

Edited April 26, 2020 by ShanesPlanet

[RockyTop]

1 hour ago, someguy152 said:

did a bit of r^sesearch and it seems that the money is taken from ur account back to them.  Even if paypal tells the buyer to ship the item back, it seems the buyer can just send an empty box as long as he uploads tracking info.

This makes me paranoid to sell high value items as it seems too heavily favored in terms of the buyer.

paypal's seller protection (if im reading right) only protects for chargebacks stemming from unathourized usage of credit, and item not recieved but not "item significantly not as described"

also    a good point someone brought up was if you buy one ebay, the buyer has 3 chances to screw the seller over, once with ebay, once with paypal, and then once with their credit card company.

I can say with much experience that PayPal heavily favors the buyer.  I have had buyers say that item is as described........but  gosh!  it is just not what they wanted.  They don't send the item back and you can;t really do anything about it. lucky I have only lost a few hundred dollar over 10 years. ............I have lost more money with American Express . As a seller you start out paying a higher percentage than Visa or MasterCard  for their service. Then you sell an item and American Express gives the buyer a 20% discount out of the seller's portion. Over all my American Express sales took a heavy loss. I stop taking American Express and have no idea why anyone would. 

Edited April 26, 2020 by RockyTop

[someguy152]

5 hours ago, ShanesPlanet said:

I received an item described in MUCH better condition than received

lost me

 

5 hours ago, ShanesPlanet said:

(I couldnt count the number of times I received an item described in MUCH better condition than received, its so common and typically I just keep the item anyhow).Hell, I've bought things described as 'mint' and still required me open it to clean and repair it. 

If im reading correctly, i still think this doesn't show the seller winning out as you as the buyer could have easily bickered the "mint" label or "significantly different than described"

[.....]

13 minutes ago, someguy152 said:

lost me

 

If im reading correctly, i still think this doesn't show the seller winning out as you as the buyer could have easily bickered the "mint" label or "significantly different than described"

that was worded horribly, you are right. I tried to edit it. What I'm saying is.  Its not UNCOMMON for a seller to claim an item is in much better condition, than the item really is. You know, "mint" on the details, but somehow doesnt even work when it arrives? The seller wins by making a sale. When there are MANY of the same used items available, but a seller misrepresents the item, its a win as its a sale. Yes, the seller is also taking a risk, but i've seen it a lot. No mention of defects and in the end, I just deal with the defect, or repair it. In the end, a sale was made. Hell, this philosophy is rampant on some VERY cheap items. Sometimes you wonder if it ever could even possibly work from factory. But the ads show it works just great.

I dont know if im still on topic, and I by no means know very much about it all. I'd say, buyer and seller beware is all. Any transaction could go smoothly or badly. I think its more about the people involved than the actual rules in print anyhow.

Edited April 27, 2020 by ShanesPlanet

[travsformation]

Another option for those concerned with second-hand sales ethics is to put up the item for sale on a dedicated site that can mediate disputes. The description can be shared here in the forum as well, along with a link to the add on the site, which is where the transaction takes places. Some sites use escrow systems too, where the site bills the buyer but holds on to the money until the item has been inspected and deemed OK, and then releases the funds to the seller. The more active role in the process means more careful/less biased mediation (compared to Paypal, for instance).

[LanghamP]

It is not possible to state a wheel runs strong while also stating a lower voltage. Doing so means lying in order to make the sale.

[Chriull]

2 hours ago, LanghamP said:

It is not possible to state a wheel runs strong while also stating a lower voltage.

Why not?

Noone afaik has seen the wheel by now but the seller. Maybe it's just a charger with to low voltage and a "perfect" battery pack?

Why speculate?

Quote

Doing so means lying in order to make the sale.

Why accuse someone based on speculation?

That's why we (try to) do not involve in sales disputes. Tipps on how to handle sales and disputes are great. Better would be tipps on how to prepare sales to avoid disputes!

Both parties have reached a stage of mutual accusations that paypal/a judge has to decide.

I have some personal, subjective preference opinion, but i could not say who (if any of both) have fully regarded their actual law (which i don't know).

You have more trustfull information?

Edit: but of course you could be right, but would you put your hands in for this?

Edited April 27, 2020 by Chriull

[LanghamP]

2 hours ago, Chriull said:

Noone afaik has seen the wheel by now but the seller. Maybe it's just a charger with to low voltage and a "perfect" battery pack?

Why speculate?

It's a bad battery pack. The seller put the low voltage in the ad so he could sell the wheel without getting a chargeback from Paypal. He disclosed what's wrong with the wheel so the PayPal judge would rule in his favor.

Words like "strong", "excellent", "clean", "fast" are entirely subjective. If someone uses those words (a lie) followed by some disclosure, then the seller is lying to you to make the sale.

To wit, the seller lied to the buyer that the wheel was in good shape. It's in bad shape, and when the seller gets the wheel, he's going to be disappointed with

1. The crummy crashed condition this wheel is in.

2. The bad battery pack.

Hoping the wheel and the seller aren't this way is speculation. Any buyer that goes through with a deal that's predicated upon a lie (great shape! Runs strong! Just the tip!) is going to lose. A buyer that spotted the lie and had misgivings (this buyer did), but still went ahead with the deal probably won't do it in the future. I've been guilty of the same expensive lesson, so welcome to the skpetic's club.

[Chriull]

1 hour ago, LanghamP said:

It's a bad battery pac

Most probably. 

But you are taking this chance to a 100%.

So you have a small chance of spreading and supporting lies.

Doing this is your personal choice and you are free to do so, of course. We as moderators in somekind of official position are not.

And if such spreading becames to much we are here to close topics and clean up. An unthankful business, but that's forum life ...

[LanghamP]

3 hours ago, Chriull said:

if such spreading becames to much we are here to close topics and clean up. An unthankful business, but that's forum life ...

Old hands (example: those of us who have lost money to sharpies) saw that Gotway advertisement and instantly knew the low voltage was a bad battery pack. I personally was amused by the "runs great!" followed by the voltage declaration.

I didn't think anyone would be taken in by that obvious contradiction. I was wrong, and a fool and his money are soon parted. We've all been there, and quickly learn not to be fools.

I'd favor a form in the sales forum that all sellers must adhere to. The form would have year, make, model, shell condition, battery condition, axle condition, mileage/hours, and operable (yes/no), and finally the location. That's it. No stupid false advertising, no confusing statements made to specifically fool PayPal judges, no moderators having to come in and do diaper duty.

[.....]

35 minutes ago, LanghamP said:

I'd favor a form in the sales forum that all sellers must adhere to. The form would have year, make, model, shell condition, battery condition, axle condition, mileage/hours, and operable (yes/no), and finally the location. That's it. No stupid false advertising, no confusing statements made to specifically fool PayPal judges, no moderators having to come in and do diaper duty.

Too much work for mods. Some people honestly don't know mechanics and who's going to be diaper duty as hardly anyone will adhere to any rules? Staying out of it the only hope the mods have. The more involved they become, the more liability could be placed. I forsee the 'for sale' section being gone eventually. If one person is so quick to blame other people for things, how long until another and another? Some people never grow up and some people are still just children. Toss em in a blender and involve a business transaction. Im ready for the mods to delete BOTH the threads, as its impossible to get thru to some people and we're preaching to the choir for others. I'll miss the 'for sale' section, but hopefully i can utilize it a few more times before the inevitable demise...

Edited April 28, 2020 by ShanesPlanet

[LanghamP]

2 minutes ago, ShanesPlanet said:

Too much work for mods. Some people honestly don't know mechanics and who's going to be diaper duty as hardly anyone will adhere to any rules?

I favor a simple form limited to the aforementioned fields. The terse salesman is the honest salesman, while the silver-tongued soothsayer with a 7 mile long airport runway is the guy who you have to watch out for.

[.....]

32 minutes ago, LanghamP said:

I favor a simple form limited to the aforementioned fields. The terse salesman is the honest salesman, while the silver-tongued soothsayer with a 7 mile long airport runway is the guy who you have to watch out for.

it worked great for Jack the kingsong rep... oh wait, it didnt. What about the OTHER details about the condition? Who's going to babysit the forms and how do we determine if the details are correct? Who do we put in charge of making sure the form format is followed AND correct? Who's to blame when a form is obviously not followed? Is there any legal recourse should a person fill out a form as total lies? Is 'i don't know' an acceptable answer on the form? Presenting a form for people is also presenting yourself as having a horse in the race. Even in heavily guarded marketplaces with strict rules, this kind of shit still happens. Your idea is great, but i fear its of dreams and pixie dust. If a buyer presents his OWN form and questions to a seller, well thats just normal behavior (due diligence).Fwiw, ebay PAYS a team of people to oversee this stuff... Even then, its rampant to go badly somehow. Have you noticed, the current for sale rules want location in the title. Sounds simple, right? Go look, I'll wait.....

* I am happily not in charge of ANY of this, I'm just an ass full of opinions*

Edited April 28, 2020 by ShanesPlanet

[LanghamP]

1 hour ago, ShanesPlanet said:

worked great for Jack the kingsong rep... oh wait, it didnt. What about the OTHER details about the condition? Who's going to babysit the forms and how do we determine if the details are correct? Who do we put in charge of making sure the form format is followed AND correct? Who's to blame when a form is obviously not followed? Is there any legal recourse should a person fill out a form as total lies?

eBay wants sales because they get a cut of the sales proceeds. The moderators here have no such skin in the game.

Again, I suggest a form that only has vital information while excluding narratives. It's easy to use emotional nonsense words in narrative form (runs great! Reliable! Fast!) but those words don't have meaning.

Make, model, miles, condition, location, operable. That's it. There's no wiggle room; lying on any of that gets a chargeback.

[xorbe]

Yeah I saw that listing.  The lower peak voltage was stated up front.  The seller could have made it more clear that peak charge voltage wasn't being reached for unknown reasons.  But ultimately this is a case of buyer beware.

Pop it open and find the problem, doesn't sound too bad.  I have a spot welder and nickel strips ... probably a $5 fix (one failing cell in a group of 4).  I suspect what you are looking for is the failed group at 4.2V while all the robust groups are around 4.06V after charging.

Edited April 28, 2020 by xorbe

[travsformation]

6 hours ago, LanghamP said:

I'd favor a form in the sales forum that all sellers must adhere to. The form would have year, make, model, shell condition, battery condition, axle condition, mileage/hours, and operable (yes/no), and finally the location. That's it. No stupid false advertising, no confusing statements made to specifically fool PayPal judges, no moderators having to come in and do diaper duty.

Although your idea makes sense, in practice it means mods would have to police the sales section to ensure adherence to the format, which means heaps more work in a section of the forum we're trying to avoid getting involved with in the first place...

[Chriull]

We tried to compile some points to consider before selling/purchasing:

with an link to a discussion topic:

Feel free to help completing the checkup list. Help adding important, clarify misleading or removing useless points!