Sales forum ethics?

[mezzanine]

What responsibility do sellers have when making a private sale on the forum?

What responsibility to the mods have for ensuring the safety of users when buying used EUCs?

I'm dealing with the very upsetting experience of realizing that the wheel I just bought likely has a bad battery pack.  It appears the seller was aware of the problem when he made the listing and I strongly suspect many posters saw the ad and realized what I didn't, but chose not to say anything.  I understand that ultimately the responsibility is with the buyer, but I feel duped.  I suspect the seller is trying to pass the wheel off to someone else because he was careful to disclose the symptom of the problem without actually stating it outright in order to have plausible deniability.      

What responsibility do we as forum users to flag posters who are trying to pawn off damaged wheels on unsuspecting buyers?  The thing I find most upsetting is that it seems there were many posters here who realized there was a problem and chose to keep quiet.  

The ad in question:

 

Edited April 23, 2020 by mezzanine

[Chriull]

1 hour ago, mezzanine said:

What responsibility do sellers have when making a private sale on the forum?

Depends on the country the transaction takes place?

In many countries for transactions between private person any liabilities can be (?are?) excluded. "Bought as is". Sometimes is has to be mentioned explicitly.

Intent and negligance could change this again?

Quote

What responsibility to the mods have for ensuring the safety of users when buying used EUCs?

"Buy and Sell secondhand eucs by owners.  Must be related to electric unicycles.  We are NOT responsible for any transactions made between buyers and sellers."

We are no sales forum neither a sales platform. This is just an absolutely free service for the members to sell and buy their second hand wheels at the same platform they are already discussing their hobby.

If there should/could/will arise any implications/liabilities/problems or whatsoever the sales subforum will very likely just be closed...

I've seen the linked sales post myself today with the battery voltage mentioned. I started an internal moderator discussion. Creating the impression to officialy supervise such sales impose liabilities? ... lawyers and lawsuits are everywhere today...

(1) Btw - it could also just be a misadjusted charger or too low voltage wrongly reported by the wheel (just for the records). I'm not too much into second hand pricing for EUCs but imho this offer is very low? Almost too low to be true?  So everyone's common sense should ring a bell just by this?

But since you titled your post "sales forum ethics" responability should be seen in a much broader view than just legal liability!

Has the potential for an endless discussion of what's an ethical responsibility against the unexperienced buyer and unfair seller bashing... ;(

Imho also the chance is high that most members don't read posts in the sales topic at all when they are not interested in getting a new wheel?

1 hour ago, mezzanine said:

It appears the seller was aware of the problem when he made the listing

At least he mentioned it and ?made a good price?

Ps.: This are my pure private opinions and concerns.

Edit(1): if i understand it right you bought this EUC so this abovementioned possibilities are out of question and just could have been theoretical possibilities.

Edited April 23, 2020 by Chriull

[mezzanine]

Thanks for responding, Chriull. The experience has been profoundly upsetting and it's causing me to re-examine my decision making.  I don't think I'll ever buy anything of value used again after this.  

You are right that the price was too good to be true.  I figured it's a three year old wheel with damage and was able to rationalize it.  I should have realized something was fishy when a number of people expressed interest and it didn't sell, but then again with the virus I figured maybe the timing was part of why it wasn't immediately bought. 

That's actually what bothers me most of all; it appears that multiple posters realized there was a problem, but instead of commenting in the sales thread as a heads-up about a major problem, they just stayed quiet and allowed someone else to get burned.  

Look, I know it's caveat emptor and I should have been more diligent.  My mistake was that I view this as community different from other online forums I've participated in because of how few of us there are and how much we have to rely on each other in this hobby to problem solve.  The culture of the forum lulled me into a mistaken sense of trust with the members, but I haven't been posting much in the last year and I can see that the number of users has skyrocketed and it may not be how it was when I joined a few years back.    

 

The seller maintained in our communication that the wheel is "like new."  I'm on disability and rely on these wheels for transportation, which is why this has been so upsetting.  I haven't slept a wink all night since I realized what happened.  This mistake will materially affect my quality of life over the next year.   

[mezzanine]

39 minutes ago, Chriull said:

 

(1) Btw - it could also just be a misadjusted charger or too low voltage wrongly reported by the wheel (just for the records). I'm not too much into second hand pricing for EUCs but imho this offer is very low? Almost too low to be true?  So everyone's common sense should ring a bell just by this?

 

Yeah, this is what I wanted to believe at first because I don't want to assume the worst about people.  I even saw a comment by Marty that gave me a glimmer of hope that it might just be a charger issue, but it's the specific voltage the seller mentions that tells me he knew what he was doing and was deliberately devious in his listing because 81.4 is exactly the figure I'd expect if there is a bad cell.  I'm not a newb and it still caught me.    

I was so worried about axle nuts and everything else that can go wrong with MS3+s that the voltage thing passed right over my head.  I give credit to the seller, he walked the tightrope fairly well, in terms of disclosing the problem in as innocuous a way as possible to preserve deniability.  Even chatted with me about how great it is to be able to trust the people on the forum when making these transactions.  

 

[meepmeepmayer]

Disconnect one pack and see if it charges to full voltage. Same for the other. At least you can identify the bad pack, maybe even get it repaired.

[meepmeepmayer]

2 hours ago, mezzanine said:

I don't think I'll ever buy anything of value used again after this.  

Use Paypal or something other with a charge back/dispute option? How did you pay?

[mezzanine]

1 hour ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Use Paypal or something other with a charge back/dispute option? How did you pay?

Thanks meep.  I rarely ever buy anything online so I am clueless about this stuff.  

[.....]

Visa and paypal protect buyers in the USA. Its tilted in the buyer's favor.  This fact NEVER escapes me when Im selling something. Just be adamant about it and don't let up. Tho they protect you, they need to be prodded along. If you paid cash or money order or check, you have a long impossible road ahead, should he not want to play ball. Best of luck, let us know what you find. Hopefully its just a charging issue. Typically you would hurt your chances at a return if you open up the device FOR ANY REASON. But, its used, so who could tell? I would NOT be very quick to tell them if you have opened it and tried to rectify by charging batteries. Your best intentions will be used against you. Once you open the device, you can no longer prove that YOU didnt cause the issue. Just a heads up.

[meepmeepmayer]

2 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Disconnect one pack and see if it charges to full voltage. Same for the other. At least you can identify the bad pack, maybe even get it repaired.

This will also tell you that the charger is ok; unless both packs charge to the same subpar voltage, then it's likely the charger. I assume you don't have another 84V Gotway charger to test.

[mezzanine]

3 minutes ago, ShanesPlanet said:

Visa and paypal protect buyers in the USA. Its tilted in the buyer's favor.  This fact NEVER escapes me when Im selling something. Just be adamant about it and don't let up. Tho they protect you, they need to be prodded along. If you paid cash or money order or check, you have a long impossible road ahead, should he not want to play ball. Best of luck, let us know what you find. Hopefully its just a charging issue. Typically you would hurt your chances at a return if you open up the device FOR ANY REASON. But, its used, so who could tell? I would NOT be very quick to tell them if you have opened it and tried to rectify by charging batteries. Your best intentions will be used against you. Once you open the device, you can no longer prove that YOU didnt cause the issue. Just a heads up.

I'm grateful for all feedback, thanks SP.  I don't even think he's shipped it yet, ironically. 

Man, emotionally, this has been tough to swallow.  Being outright and deliberately scammed is an awful feeling.  I'm not suggesting I don't have some responsibility as the buyer, but I'm not happy about how this happened.

I really hope there's more input provided by the mods on the policy in these types of cases.  Again, the hardest part to accept is it appears as though posters saw there was a major problem and didn't say anything.  

[mezzanine]

2 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

This will also tell you that the charger is ok; unless both packs charge to the same subpar voltage, then it's likely the charger. I assume you don't have another 84V Gotway charger to test.

I don't have a Gotway charger.  I contacted the seller before he's shipped the wheel asking to cancel, but it looks like he bought postage.  He's using the cost of the postage as a reason why I need to accept the wheel. 

If you've ever dealt with a scammer before, they're quick to paint themselves as the ignorant victim and deny deny deny, despite whatever clear evidence there is of their guilt.  It's not productive or pleasant communication.  

I wanted to believe it could be a less concerning problem, but it's the precise voltage the wheel charges to that causes me to think it's safe to assume it's a damaged cell.  I dismissed it because I figured it was due to battery wear and that's where I have to take responsibility for my lack of knowledge.  

 

[.....]

its very simple... don't accept the package. He can cancel postage if he wants, so long as its not dropped off or picked up. If you dont open the package and dont accept receipt, it will go back to him and he will have lost shipping. Just make sure the delivery company notates that you are refusing to recieve the package. YOU have the upper hand as a buyer, don't be bullied. Theres a chance its all legit too. I feel for you, Ive been there before. As a seller, I would GLADLY cancel a shipping label asap, as I KNOW its going to cost me more in the end, once you send it back. I am liable for shipping BOTH ways and the buyer is already not happy. He should WANT to cut his losses and reduce his risk.

Ethics is a can of worms thats hard to close. Please don't assume the forum does much moderating on the sales. The forum service here is free, and ANY mention of legal ramification and we would see this place close FAST! Noone wants responsibilities and liabilities from an activity that is not profitable. In the end, its always buyer beware. This also may just be a miscommunication. I feel for you, i really do, but this is beyond our control to actually help you, aside from wheel repair/testing suggestions,.

 

Edited April 23, 2020 by ShanesPlanet

[meepmeepmayer]

Again, how did you pay?

[mezzanine]

1 minute ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Again, how did you pay?

Paypal.  I offered to eat the shipping and he's washing his hands of the whole thing.  "you bought it as is" is his response.

[meepmeepmayer]

And you can't cancel the payment?

[.....]

3 minutes ago, mezzanine said:

Paypal.  I offered to eat the shipping and he's washing his hands of the whole thing.  "you bought it as is" is his response.

contact paypal... done and done, you'll see. You'll eat nothing. He's either unaware or trying to bully you. If you do it BEFORE you get the package, he probably hasnt even had a chance to get his hands on the $$. Be diligent.

Edited April 23, 2020 by ShanesPlanet

[meepmeepmayer]

Just now, ShanesPlanet said:

contact paypal... done and done, you'll see.

Yep, tell him to not ship now and try to get the payment cancelled.

@Michael Anderson Anything to say?

[Michael Anderson]

7 minutes ago, mezzanine said:

Paypal.  I offered to eat the shipping and he's washing his hands of the whole thing.  "you bought it as is" is his response.

You are lying you offered $150 for shipping when I paid $300 you bought this machine for $750 and I paid $300 for shipping.. you and any else are running a scam! And trying to get a refund and I don't have the machine is underhanded and dirty this is why I shouldn't be kind to people!

[mezzanine]

9 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Yep, tell him to not ship now and try to get the payment cancelled.

@Michael Anderson Anything to say?

Already emailed him early early this morning asking him not to ship.  Wanna guess what he did anyway?

 

[mezzanine]

12 minutes ago, ShanesPlanet said:

contact paypal... done and done, you'll see. You'll eat nothing. He's either unaware or trying to bully you. If you do it BEFORE you get the package, he probably hasnt even had a chance to get his hands on the $$. Be diligent.

I'm super grateful for your input SP, thank-you.  He's definitely a scammer, right down to gaslighting himself as the victim and suggesting HE'S the one being scammed, as you can read for yourself.  

I don't do a lot of online transactions, needless to say.  

[Michael Anderson]

4 minutes ago, mezzanine said:

I'm super grateful for your input SP, thank-you.  He's definitely a scammer, right down to gaslighting himself as the victim and suggesting HE'S the one being scammed, as you can read for yourself.  

I don't do a lot of online transactions, needless to say.  

I figured that when he is asking for a refund and he didn't even receive the item yet

[Chriull]

21 minutes ago, mezzanine said:

Already emailed him early early this morning asking him not to ship.  Wanna guess what he did anyway?

 

Then with this documented communication paypal should just keep you unharmed - that's "sellers risk".

Get in contact with paypal and you'll know. I'm not really experienced with such cases, too.

 

Edited April 23, 2020 by Chriull
Correct autocorrection...

[.....]

I freaking HATE selling shit. Fwiw, I have NO horse in this race and hold no judgement. It just saddens me to see things not go great for BOTH parties. I have been on both ends of this same issue.  *note to self.. don't comment on things like this, it brings me little joy.

[someguy152]

On 4/23/2020 at 4:03 PM, ShanesPlanet said:

Visa and paypal protect buyers in the USA. Its tilted in the buyer's favor. 

I sadly know people who take advantage of this, and i imagine it's what drives prices up for the rest of us.

So as a seller, if a buyer says something was wrong but nothing actually was and the buyer issues a chargeback, will I as a seller still receive the money from paypal and paypal is the ones that take the hit (eventually resulting in users having higher fees?)

Edited April 26, 2020 by someguy152
added info

[.....]

I really don't know. I've over 700 transaction (1/3 sales) on ebay and have dealt with refunds before(100% positive feedback as a seller means: accepting losses whenever theres the slightest issue) . When i do refund something, I always pay shipping (seller), even if i shouldnt have to. If i wait on an unsatisfied customer to pay shipping, it will NEVER return to me. THIS is why i cringe when i sell expensive things with difficult shipping. I dont recall a time when a return didnt cost me a mint as a seller. I seriously doubt paypal will absorb any losses. I have been very lucky and have only lost a few times and very little. I RARELY sell overseas as the protection to the seller is MUCH less. I am ALWAYS nervous about selling, but its the risk I take. I think paypal handles each case a little differently depending on the account status. Its pretty easy for them to look up your history (and theirs) and determine who's going to lose the most. This kind of question needs directed to paypal, as they are the ones who make/break and enforce their own policies. I do know that they hold funds for new sellers until AFTER the item is received by the buyer, but thats only new sellers. Again, I think you have to directly ask them, as each situation is different. On average, I LOSE 10% to 3rd parties on EVERY sale. I sell something for $1500, after shipping losses and fees, Im lucky to walk away with $1300. Of note, i am NOT a commercial seller and nearly ALWAYS lose money. I honestly don't know how online stores ever break even.

Edited April 26, 2020 by ShanesPlanet