Interesting behavior of wheel in FW 2.00

[seage]

Figured I should make this it's own thread instead of hijacking the update one as I think everyone there is already pretty tired of me. At least if you're here, you've chosen to be, haha. 

Alright, so I've been having a bit of trouble with the latest update. I'm riding the KS-18XL legacy. 

First, some of the light settings I have are different than others. I have far less options. I wasn't even able to fully turn off my lights when I checked.

Second, the lift sensor has gone off the rails. I had to turn it off completely as, without even touching it, it would beep, disengage, then double beep and come back on. Then beep again and repeat until finally it would disengage and not rengage at all. Not sure if that's physical damage to the chip (I have the upgraded sensors but they've never worked correctly). One day they messed up in a drs office and have never worked since but after the update they finally didn't glitch out the wheel. I rolled it back then reupdated with the official 2.00 on my iPad, and the issue returned (yay!) Haven't had a chance to open the wheel yet. I will be soon to replace the inner tube. I'll report in the state of the internals then.

And finally, the one that I've been bugging people with is the pedal play. I posted a video showcasing how it works in a super extreme and exaggerated way. I purposely did a bad calibration where it's super tilted back, then I rotated the wheel 180 and the wheel tilted close to the same angle on the other side. I noticed this was happening when I added my small forward tilt to my wheel. Normally I'm able to have it set to a few degrees forward and it's fine. Not too much play. But this time with the same calibration, if I went downhill, I would be forced into a pedal lift to the same degree it was tilted forward. I do NOT remember this happening on 1.13. It may have leveled out a slight bit, but never to the degree as to match the degree it was set in the opposite direction. I'm still under the conception that this is a software thing as I've had two seperate results with updating now. When I updated 2.00 from the engineer app, some of the wheels strange behavior stopped and only the pedal stuff remained. So I'm wondering if that's just the new way that kingsong is balancing now, since it does seem to have it's advantages while moving. 

Anyways, any feedback or ideas or comparisons to your own experience would be helpful, thank you!

 

Edit: one last thing. People mentioned a red charging light. I have not experienced this at all. Wondering if I should attempt to update via darkness bot on my iPad?

Edited January 12, 2020 by seage

[RoadRunner]

There must be something wrong with your wheel, mine just performs just perfect after the update, like before.

Lots of power, rock hard pedals, no dipping or tilting when turning, i had a slight dip when i turned sharp going slow on 1.13, that’s completely gone now.

[seage]

2 minutes ago, RoadRunner said:

There must be something wrong with your wheel, mine just performs just perfect after the update, like before.

Lots of power, rock hard pedals, no dipping or tilting when turning, i had a slight dip when i turned sharp going slow on 1.13, that’s completely gone now.

This is confidence inspiring, haha. Everything but the recently glitched lift sensor (which I'm gonna chalk up to physical damage due to the chip and sensor riding so low and my riding in winter conditions) worked perfectly on 1.13. I wonder if disconnecting that could serve to change how the wheels acting. @meepmeepmayer mentioned also forcing a bad calibration. Maybe I can do one on it's side or something totally off. Or throw my wheel down a large hill. Knock the sensors into wanting to work. 

I will say, when I first got 1.13, my Bluetooth stopped working. I contacted my seller to get a new motherboard because I was so tired of it. And he just gave me the engineer app, I rolled back, reinstalled and then tada, no more Bluetooth issues. I have such bad luck...

[RoadRunner]

Well as i said before I just made one calibration with a level app holding it with my hands against a wall.

Level was on 0 and that’s it, working perfectly.

[seage]

7 minutes ago, RoadRunner said:

Well as i said before I just made one calibration with a level app holding it with my hands against a wall.

Level was on 0 and that’s it, working perfectly.

0 doesn't stick for me. It always ends up tilting this way and that when I turn it back on. That's why I think meep was on to something. 

Remember when I used to eyeball it, and my 16s did a front roll while I was on it? Feels like that all over again, hahaha

[mrelwood]

I see two separate issues within your calibration problems.

1) If calibrated to a tilt, the tilt reverses in a tight turn. I have seen this on some wheels, some just seem to do it more than others. I think it was @Seba who mentioned that the fw 2.0 must be calibrated to be exactly level, both left to right (as always), but also front to back. This would mean that the pedal angle is no longer available for personal adjustments.

It could be the calibration was never meant to be used for personal taste, and now the new algorithm just uses the calibration data differently. Whichever the reason, it is a nasty surprise for those who are used to riding with a pre-set angle. I guess a pedal (or shoe) modification would be required from now on.

2) Pedal tilt in turns / calibration doesn’t stick. I know the steps have been said many times, but it is just too common that one of the crucial requirements for a calibration is not followed closely enough, and it will always result in this exact behaviour.

When doing the calibration, the wheel must be #1: perfectly straight upright in left-right direction, #2: perfectly straight upright in front-back direction, and 3#: perfectly stationary the whole time from when you start pressing the power button the first time after choosing to calibrate from the app, to when you start pressing the power button after the long beep that notes that the calibration is finished.

Again, I’m sorry to repeat all this, but maybe you didn’t hold it stationary early enough or long enough?

[meepmeepmayer]

Of course I can only guess. But to me the video (wow at that behavior!) looks like yet another case of a badly calibrated sensor going crazy (but maybe @mrelwood is right that KS now expects a completely level calibration?). Reminds me of your initial 16S video with the xxxxxxtreme crazyness. The firmware update forced you to do a new calibration, which ended up being a bad calibration, and now you somehow need to get a good one again. Too bad this always hits you

5 hours ago, seage said:

@meepmeepmayer mentioned also forcing a bad calibration. Maybe I can do one on it's side or something totally off.

Yep, as shitty as possible. Side lean, forward/backwards lean. Basically just throw it in a corner and then calibrate however it lies. And then calibrate nicely.

5 hours ago, seage said:

Or throw my wheel down a large hill. Knock the sensors into wanting to work. 

Don't do that... just yet

-

At this point, the most notable common point I'm seeing with your calibrations is your garage (same rare problem with TWO wheels?!). Calibrate your wheel somewhere else. Different temperature (maybe warmer is better?), different electromagnetic environment (maybe your wifi hates your wheel? Your phone's Bluetooth? Different phone! Who knows...), maybe even a different battery charge if you always were at the same one, etc. This is fast approaching voodoo (calibrate at midnight on a full moon in front of a mirror and say "Kingsong" three times, but don't look, whatever happens!!), but what else to do? Just go through every potential bad influence on your sensor and remove or change it.

What you can also do is make systematic calibrations at certain forward/backward and sideways angles, and write down the results. Mabe you find a pattern in which area the calibration gets better or worse. Also calibrate somewhere (else) with more space. The wheel starts getting to the final balance level very slowly if you only push it very slowly (like in the video above), so push it fast enough to remove that source of error (for which you need the space).

That's all I can come up with... good luck.

Edited January 12, 2020 by meepmeepmayer

[seage]

2 hours ago, mrelwood said:

I see two separate issues within your calibration problems.

1) If calibrated to a tilt, the tilt reverses in a tight turn. I have seen this on some wheels, some just seem to do it more than others. I think it was @Seba who mentioned that the fw 2.0 must be calibrated to be exactly level, both left to right (as always), but also front to back. This would mean that the pedal angle is no longer available for personal adjustments.

It could be the calibration was never meant to be used for personal taste, and now the new algorithm just uses the calibration data differently. Whichever the reason, it is a nasty surprise for those who are used to riding with a pre-set angle. I guess a pedal (or shoe) modification would be required from now on.

2) Pedal tilt in turns / calibration doesn’t stick. I know the steps have been said many times, but it is just too common that one of the crucial requirements for a calibration is not followed closely enough, and it will always result in this exact behaviour.

When doing the calibration, the wheel must be #1: perfectly straight upright in left-right direction, #2: perfectly straight upright in front-back direction, and 3#: perfectly stationary the whole time from when you start pressing the power button the first time after choosing to calibrate from the app, to when you start pressing the power button after the long beep that notes that the calibration is finished.

Again, I’m sorry to repeat all this, but maybe you didn’t hold it stationary early enough or long enough?

I agree with you 100% on your statement that it was never meant for personal taste. I think it was always set to be flat. And now they've enhanced how it balances and counter balances and that drastically throws off those of us who were doing weird stuff. I'll probably do a pedal mod. I already have one in place that tilts my legs into the body of the wheel like the msx. It also acts a light suspension. Its nice. My shoes (The comfycush by Vans) seem to have a balanced padding inside, unlike the prosk8 pros. So i may have to do a lil DIY But hey, thats half the fun.

 

But yes, i took your words seriously. I have a bit of good news, but i'll post it after i respond here.  

[seage]

2 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Of course I can only guess. But to me the video (wow at that behavior!) looks like yet another case of a badly calibrated sensor going crazy (but maybe @mrelwood is right that KS now expects a completely level calibration?). Reminds me of your initial 16S video with the xxxxxxtreme crazyness. The firmware update forced you to do a new calibration, which ended up being a bad calibration, and now you somehow need to get a good one again. Too bad this always hits you

I think its the latter. Because of my new findings. I think they've changed how it finds its balance in the first place. Which is crazy, but it would explain why im able to go up and down bumps and curbs and it doesnt dip or anything. Turning also felt really good, even when it was glitched out. But yeah....yeeeeeeeeeah.

2 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Yep, as shitty as possible. Side lean, forward/backwards lean. Basically just throw it in a corner and then calibrate however it lies. And then calibrate nicely.

Done, haha

2 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

At this point, the most notable common point I'm seeing with your calibrations is your garage (same rare problem with TWO wheels?!). Calibrate your wheel somewhere else. Different temperature (maybe warmer is better?), different electromagnetic environment (maybe your wifi hates your wheel? Your phone's Bluetooth? Different phone! Who knows...), maybe even a different battery charge if you always were at the same one, etc. This is fast approaching voodoo (calibrate at midnight on a full moon in front of a mirror and say "Kingsong" three times, but don't look, whatever happens!!), but what else to do? Just go through every potential bad influence on your sensor and remove or change it.

What you can also do is make systematic calibrations at certain forward/backward and sideways angles, and write down the results. Mabe you find a pattern in which area the calibration gets better or worse. Also calibrate somewhere (else) with more space. The wheel starts getting to the final balance level very slowly if you only push it very slowly (like in the video above), so push it fast enough to remove that source of error (for which you need the space).

That's all I can come up with... good luck.

You know, i think there is electromagnetic stuff at play. I mean, that took out my lift sensor originally. There are some places i'll never take my wheel again. One being the bloody doctors office. I'll just walk. Hell, i'll limp. Take an uber across the street. That place is a curse. But okay, i did what you said, i talked to a lot of russians, and did some changes that i'll post about in a quick second. 

[seage]

Okay friends. So i MAY be okay. Learned a few things by asking around in the Russian EUC groups and also from you guys here.

1. There seem to be different modifications with 2.00 based on which motherboard you have. There's an old old one, (Someone mentioned an old load cell, but i didnt understand what that meant) an updated one that came out with the wheels with the purely white inner cases and that updated lift sensor, and then the new one with the newest motor? I'm not sure about the details, but this is what they were insinuating. From what i was learning, it seems like the newer the motherboard, the more light settings? Who knows, lmao. Oh, also, the red charging light only comes on in the dark. If its light on the sensor, it stays off. 

2. I rolled back, then tried to update with my android. Didn't work AT ALL. IT just spun and spun. So i grabbed my ipad again, but instead of using that god awful app, i used darkness bot. The update worked nice. Like hot fire. I was with it. Down with that business. So someone that i met via the russian ks 18 group that i'm surprised exists, added me and told me that he uses his wheel stand when calibrating, as, when you turn it back on and it does its countdown and all that, the wheel is disengaged the whole time. So it doesn't need to be on the ground. So im like, oh sheet, proper! Grabbed my level, found an actually flat spot in my house. Threw the level on the stand to make sure, put the wheel on and then pressed the button and held my breath. It worked, when i rotate it, there's almost no play. It does still slightly tilt. Minor stuff i could feel whilst standing on the pedals, but that's only because i'm so used to NEVER having pressure on my heels. And now its flat, so i can feel when it puts me on my heels and when it puts my on my toes. Its very minor. 

3. My lift sensor. That was a sign to me that the firmware was glitched. So i tried turning it back on. The wheel didn't start beeping like mad..okay good... Tried lifting it. It kept spinning over and over. Finally i found the sweet spot. At the back of the handle, if i lift there it disengages every time. Imma need to crack the case open and see whats going on with the sensor at the front, but from this experiment, i'll say that that sensor is the problem. It worked 100% when picking it up from the back. Interesting thing was just how fast the wheel spun the moment it left the ground. From the split second it took to disengage, the wheel was ready to rip shit up. Kinda crazy because it wasn't like that before. 

I haven't been able to take the wheel outside yet, as its pure black ice everywhere out there, and will be for a while. But from the way the wheel handles when wheeling and stationary/pivoting on the pedals, most of the issues seem to be okay. The play from before has been drastically reduced. The motor does seem pretty sensitive now. I can hear it rumbling when up against the wall because its not perfectly level. Its probably always done this, but was not noticeable beneath that whine we were all so accustomed to. 

There was something else I wanted to say, but I totally forgot. For now, we seems to be in the green. Gotta wait for the temps to raise and the black ice to melt so i can go outside and give you my results, but things are seeming promising. Also the fact that suddenly my wheel is registering on my phone and tablet as "My vehicle" Which was something that didnt work for the entirety of version 1.13. Its all very promising.

 

Thanks for you assistance and patience with me. I always have this type of fun stuff happen, so im glad i can always ask for help. 

[Lutalo]

Sorry, that I didn't get a chance to jump on this topic sooner, but you got great suggestions from the forum members; @meepmeepmayer and @mrelwood. These guys know their stuff. Glad that you got it worked out bro. Look forward to seeing the results of your calibration when the weather breaks up top in Canada and you get a chance to ride it.

Take some time to Let Kingsong know about the failure of their app to update your wheel properly on android. I always do my updates on my homemade wheel stands, and put an app-based level on the foot plats for good measure 😉👍

Edited January 12, 2020 by Lutalo

[seage]

4 hours ago, Lutalo said:

Sorry, that I didn't get a chance to jump on this topic sooner, but you got great suggestions from the forum members; @meepmeepmayer and @mrelwood. These guys know their stuff. Glad that you got it worked out bro. Look forward to seeing the results of your calibration when the weather breaks up top in Canada and you get a chance to ride it.

Take some time to Let Kingsong know about the failure of their app to update your wheel properly on android. I always do my updates on my homemade wheel stands, and put an app-based level on the foot plats for good measure 😉👍

Its alll good, man! Totally fine. And yeah. Im thankful for their constant assistance, even when I'm being annoying with my constant problems, haha. Im also looking forward to it. From my test rides while it wasnt "perfect" having flatter pedals forced me to ride in a different way. Actually, the way it accelerates forced me initially. Im not gripping the wheel as tight, as i cant really pick up any speed that way. And i also cant take bumps well like that. So ive FINALLY loosened up. Hopefully this will lead to my being able to ride faster over different road imperfections. Im just not looking forward to the wobble which for sure is going to be revisiting me as i gain the correct muscles to handle the wheel XD. Here we go. 

And yeah, i even got messages on youtube about android not working. They've removed the app from the app store again too. Its pretty bad.

I never even thought to do that, with the wheel stand. but im happy i did. This is gonna be an interesting first ride, once this ice melts in 10 years from now....ffs...

[mrelwood]

7 minutes ago, seage said:

They've removed the app from the app store again too.

I suppose you mean Google Play Store, as I can still see it in the Apple App Store. Reading on people's experiences, an Android version that can update the firmware is due anyway.

[seage]

Just now, mrelwood said:

I suppose you mean Google Play Store, as I can still see it in the Apple App Store. Reading on people's experiences, an Android version that can update the firmware is due anyway.

Sorry, i have both and constant mix up the names. Yeah, the play store, haha. 

[seage]

Well, i tricked myself into thinking everything was good. Did a test ride, with a level, lmao. When i turned it on, it made all that noise, then locked pretty close to 0 degrees. I rolled it a bit, didnt feel anything. So, next step, under load. Immediately had me on my heels. And it just got worse as i rode. @Unventor called it "wavy" in the other thread. It was less so than normal, but you could feel it. But most of said wave was back, onto my damn heels. Its super uncomfortable to have the pedals tilt that direction on any sort of hill. I always feel like im going to fall backwards if i hit any sort of bump. I tried to make up for it by adopting a bit more of an aggressive stance, but even still, it felt off. If the pedals were dipping forward, id be a lot more comfortable as i ride on my toes. But the opposite makes me very uncomfortable, which really sucks... I thought I got it!